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I was wrong about ALL apps will accept the device passcode as a backup to face-id. I just tested it on Bitwarden, and the only backup to face-id it will accept is the master passcode of the password database. But a lot of apps will accept your device passcode as a backup to face-id.
Correct. However another issue I’ve just found with Bitwarden is that you can add a new fingerprint to the device just using the passcode (and maybe a faceId profile but I don’t have that so can’t test) and then use that to log in. Some apps (banking for sure) prompt you for your login if the devices fingerprints have been added to/changed but Bitwarden doesn’t currently.
As many have commented, it’s not the fact that apple allows a simple passcode to unlock your device, but the fact that many other layers of security are undermined (Apple id, password keychain, Touch ID) so it doesn’t matter how secure those passwords are if all you need is a four digit code that can easily be snooped on/ guessed.
 
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Bad design. letting apple off the hook for a single point of vulnerability to get EVERYTHING is weak.
Kinda like just having a 4 digit pin for a debit card? Or any one password w/ 2fa for any bank account, or perhaps, maybe, don’t let apple have that privilege in the first place?
 
you need your passcode AND your Apple ID password to turn off Find My. There are several inaccuracies in that article on how iPhone security works.
Except you only need the passcode to change your Apple ID password. So you can easily change it, and then use the new password plus the device code to turn off Find My. It makes the strength of your Apple ID code irrelevant.
 
you need your passcode AND your Apple ID password to turn off Find My. There are several inaccuracies in that article on how iPhone security works.
I can confirm turning off Find My iPhone requires Apple ID password. But it's very weird that changing the password doesn't require the current password.
 
Kinda like just having a 4 digit pin for a debit card? Or any one password w/ 2fa for any bank account, or perhaps, maybe, don’t let apple have that privilege in the first place?
When someone get your 4 digit pin of a debit card they dont hijack your entire back account, other accounts, credit card and lock you out from reporting it stolen.

In 1 minute they can control your apple account and disable all of your other devices.
 
It's been this way for some time and doesn't make it wrong as some of this could be mitigated with a screen time password. I'm presuming its been this way to make it easier to change/remember passwords. Not everybody needs the same security standard and it should be up to the user to decide theirs. In the same vein one can establish a password of 1111, one can also establish a much harder password. And then one can lock down a number updates via content restrictions including account changes, password changes, location changes and sharing changes. The thing that is unprotected is apple pay if set up.

There are three scenarios where a hijacked phone is mostly protected:
1. Your locked phone is grabbed: Phone properly secured on lock screen not much can be done.
2. Unlocked phone is grabbed and password is not known and screen time restrictions are in place: if proper content restrictions are set and password is not known to thief most of the phone will be protected.
3. Unlocked phone is grabbed and password is known and screen time restrictions are in place: Apple pay is mostly vulnerable. Maybe some other apps where the iphone password can be used in lieu of face id.

No. The lockscreen has not only a password but protects all your data. It's made strong enough that the FBI had trouble with it. Screen time is not designed like that at all.

As a temporary measure if you want to feel more safe and if you are at high risk of having your phone snatched from you, then sure, turn it on, but recognize it is a bandaid and not even fix, and provides marginal security only.

As I said, the problem is and can be solved by:

  1. People need to stop using crappy PIN codes and use alphanumeric passphrases
  2. Disallow iCloud password change without previous password
  3. Introduce a new feature to be able to lock certain apps from the OS level--this means you can lock your email app to require double authentication even if someone snatches your phone away from you when you're using it (unlocked).
Both of you seem to be missing the fact that I agree with your view points, and have mentioned the very same things you’re preaching to me in my own posts. Not only that but have posted my own solutions to the problems. I suppose you’re not reading them properly before posting your musings directly to me.
 
The biggest issue here — and I was totally gobsmacked when I just checked — is that you can reset iCloud password with just the device passcode, no need to enter the old iCloud password. That. Is. So. Dumb. It means that anyone with your passcode can lock you out of your iCloud and prevent you remote bricking your device.

If you’ve forgotten your iCloud password then you’d need some way to reset it. 🤔

That’s probably why you only need the phone’s passcode for a reset.

It does feel like a security area that needs tightening up though.
 
It seems that the short 4-digit passcodes are not very secure so maybe best to use alphanumeric and/or long passcodes (12 or more digits) ?
4 digit passcodes are fine _except_ in that people who are watching you enter them have less chances to misinterpret what you typed. The biggest motivation to go to six digits are:

- certain local exploits that might let someone brute force the password, take 100x as long worst-case. Note that modern smartphones have secure enclaves which make this way more difficult
- there are stupidly common 4 digit passcodes, such that a large number of devices would be unlocked with a "top 10" list.

Just don't show someone your passcode and then let your phone be stolen. If you think you'll regularly have to type your passcode in view of people who might steal your phone and compromise your account, then sure make the passcode harder.

The only other real way they could improve this is to have an option for an 'easy' access passcode and a 'hard' admin passcode for doing things like device resets. Still wouldn't help for the 'easy' code being used to authorize Apple Pay, etc - and there's a much greater risk of people forgetting the 'hard' code they don't use everyday and getting locked out of certain functions.
 
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Apple needs to make an iPhone reset both the passcode and a face scan. Not just the passcode. They don’t even need your Apple ID to reset it. Frankly it’s just some free lines of code to require a second step to do this. I had mine stolen after I drunkingly gave out my 6 digit. Thinking I was safe. Bye bye iPhone.

An iPhone reset does not require either the passcode or a face scan. You can just DFU the phone.

Turning off Activation lock, or getting through software installation after a DFU restart, requires the Apple ID and password. If you had Find My enabled, there should not have been a way to resell a working phone (although they could still divvy it up for parts).
 
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And iPhone occasionally asks for the passcode to unlock the phone at the most unfortunate times, even if you have done nothing to it to warrant this. Should just stick with asking for passcode 1. on restart, 2. on multiple Face ID attempts, and 3. user manually disables Face ID through a combined button press gesture.
In the article, it says that thieves would trigger a required passcode through the button press gesture or by restarting the phone, then observe the entered passcode
 
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People who violently assault/rob people tend to graduate to more violence. I have no idea their actual intention. Don’t want shot, don’t assault and rob people. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Seems like a nuclear solution to a small petty crime. How about more education, and a better social net or system that aids people so they don’t need to rob and get killed by trigger happy people? Most countries go done this route, and have very very little gun murders. Rather than just arm everyone and see what happens.
 
It's not a flaw, it's just tech illiterate iPhone users getting Shoulder Surfed because they were using a short passcode in public to unlock their phones. So just don't use your passcode in a public easily visible space.
If an attacker can compromise your whole apple account with one factor (device pin) that is the very definition of a flaw.

Let’s also consider the rubber hose methodology here which is hitting you with a rubber hose until you hand over the PIN. So they then steal your phone and your entire apple account to boot. Doesn’t sound like a good situation.
 
I have seen many stories of people having all their money stolen from their bank accounts, only yesterday I saw a phone get snatched, very common in my city. There is not really any violence in most cases, it is just someone walking in the street and the guy comes up on a bike and takes the phone out of your hand. It is almost a daily occurrence. I see it at least once a week, mainly tourists I assume. Yesterday As soon as it was snatched the lady started to run I assume back home to change her passwords. One possible solution is to buy another phone and use that for your banking etc. Also set a SIM pin. Set backups to the cloud and get AppleCare or another insurance which covers theft. I have a long passcode set with letters, numbers and symbols, good luck watching that.

As for being armed to prevent theft, as far as I am concerned if you choose to rob someone, you accept the risk. We cannot carry guns in the UK, but if we could, I would. There are too many crazies in big cities, and I have been caught several times in their crap where I was in general fear of my life. Shooting someone who is trying to rob you seems acceptable to me, without question.
 
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I have never enabled iCloud Keychain… Having access to all your password using the same passcode you use to use your phone is a big security risk. That’s why I prefer 1Password, simply because they ask me for FaceId or a master password I can set.
 
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An in-depth report published today by The Wall Street Journal's Joanna Stern and Nicole Nguyen highlights instances of thieves spying on a victim's iPhone passcode before stealing the device in order to gain access to the device, data, and money.

iphone-passcode-green.jpg

All of the victims interviewed said their iPhones were stolen while they were out socializing at bars and other public places at night. Some victims said the iPhones were grabbed out of their hands by strangers, while others said they were physically assaulted and intimidated. The report provides specific examples of these instances.

With knowledge of the iPhone's passcode, a thief can easily reset the victim's Apple ID password in the Settings app, even if Face ID or Touch ID is enabled. Subsequently, the thief can turn off Find My iPhone on the device, preventing the owner of the device from tracking its location or remotely erasing the device via iCloud. The thief can also remove other trusted Apple devices from the account to further lock out the victim.

The thief can also change an Apple ID's contact information and set up a recovery key in order to prevent a victim from recovering the account.


To make matters worse, knowing an iPhone's passcode allows a thief to use Apple Pay, send Apple Cash, and access banking apps using passwords stored in iCloud Keychain. Even if Face ID or Touch ID is enabled on the iPhone, thieves can simply bypass these authentication methods and an option to input the device's passcode is presented. In some cases, the report claims that thieves even opened an Apple Card by finding the victim's last four digits of their Social Security number in photos stored in apps like Photos or Google Drive.

Access to other passwords stored in iCloud Keychain allows the thief to further wreak havoc, as it could give them access to email accounts and other sensitive information. All in all, the report says thieves can essentially "steal your entire digital life."

Apple Responds

In response to the report, an Apple spokesperson said "security researchers agree that iPhone is the most secure consumer mobile device, and we work tirelessly every day to protect all our users from new and emerging threats."

"We sympathize with users who have had this experience and we take all attacks on our users very seriously, no matter how rare," the spokesperson added. "We will continue to advance the protections to help keep user accounts secure." Apple did not provide any specific details about any next steps it might take to increase security.

In a tweet, Stern recommended that Apple add extra protections to iOS and introduce additional Apple ID account recovery options.

How to Stay Protected

In a tweet, Stern recommended that users switch from a four-digit passcode to an alphanumeric passcode, which would be more difficult for thieves to spy on. This can be done in the Settings app under Face ID & Passcode → Change Passcode.

iPhone users can also use Face ID or Touch ID as much as possible when in public to prevent thieves from spying on their passcode. In situations where entering the passcode is necessary, users can hold their hands over their screen to hide passcode entry.

To protect a bank account, consider storing the password in a password manager that does not involve the device's passcode, such as 1Password.

Article Link: Apple Responds to Report About Thieves Spying on iPhone Passcodes to 'Steal Your Entire Digital Life'
All manufacturers of smart phones have to do is render the phone unusable by locking it via the serial number, once reported stolen, no phones would then be worth stealing, oh and sites like Ebay could be a lot more pro active with stolen goods on their sites, instead of turning a blind eye to it!
 
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A lot of comments here dunk on 4 digit PINs. Does that mean my bank cards (with forced 4 digit PINs) are all insecure?

Also, doesn't anyone else get random "your passcode is required to enable Face ID" requests? My phone does this almost every day, or 2 days if I'm lucky.
 
To (somewhat) mitigate the phone grab / passcode glancing scenario, I've enabled Screen Time with a passcode and restricted access to these options. The "Account Changes" on "Don't Allow" locks out the whole iCloud settings screen and "Location Services" makes it so Find My can't be turned off. It's not perfect, just another layer.

IMG_1163.PNG
 
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To (somewhat) mitigate the phone grab / passcode glancing scenario, I've enabled Screen Time with a passcode and restricted access to these options. The "Account Changes" on "Don't Allow" locks out the whole iCloud settings screen and "Location Services" makes it so Find My can't be turned off. It's not perfect, just another layer.

View attachment 2164199
The big hole in this solution is that Apple foolishly lets you turn-off/change the screen time password by using the device password.

Here’s the flaw. Go to screen time. Then go to “change screen time passcode”. Then go to “turn off screen time passcode”. Then select “forget passcode”. You now have to enter your Apple ID. Which can be easily found by searching your email. Then select ‘forgot password’ for the Apple ID. After it asks for the device passcode, it will then let you enter a new Apple ID password from this screen.

Apple has some big time security flaws!
 
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It will now let you enter a new Apple ID password from this screen.

Wow.. that's true, thanks for poking holes in that. I use the Outlook app instead of Mail so that it requires FaceID/Passcode to get into, *but* I could just type in the device's phone number (which is displayed in Settings anyway) and got the AppleID reset prompt. That's just way too easy.

I do need to find / know the AppleID's e-mail address it seems, which isn't accessible anywhere (due to the Screen Time limitations set + Outlook requiring ID/Code). Can't retrieve it from iMessage etc. due to Screen Time > Account Changes (Don't Allow). However, if you have your AppleID e-mailaddress listed in your own contact sheet, it's easy to get it from there. I've now changed my AppleID's email address to an alternate that isn't listed / accessible anywhere on device. Don't forget to remove the Siri suggestion, because she'll just offer it up for free on your contact sheet.


Ugh, going to https://appleid.apple.com/ on the device, just displays the AppleID's main e-mail address.
Only Apple can fix these holes, sadly. Or can someone come up with mitigation?

So it seems it's actually safer to have FaceID enabled, so the passcode can't be glanced.

Also definitely use a completely separate (6 digit) code on your banking apps and not FaceID.
 
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