Apple Retail Employees Getting Smaller Raises of Approximately 4% in 2023

[seek3r]

It's an idea or counter argument that isn't really well thought out.

Even worse, the argument reinforces crapping on poorer folks. "Oh, you didnt just move? Clearly you don't deserve a raise"

Actually it’s called life. Everyone has those choices to make at some point. It’s not unrealistic especially since it goes on every day at our southern border. Those people left anything and everything for a better life. Certainly we in this country are better off, if not perhaps a foot journey to El Salvador might provide some perspective.

"there are people who are *so* desperate they literally left everything behind and walked barefoot hundreds of miles risking violence and abuse to collapse at our border so no one in the us who's even marginally better off should ever get a better deal, why dont they just do what those even more desperate folks did" is a truly odd argument

You guys really bend over backwards to find reasons why no one should get decent raises or anyone less well off than you can get any sort of better deal, it's impressive

 

[harvester32]

Even worse, the argument reinforces crapping on poorer folks. "Oh, you didnt just move? Clearly you don't deserve a raise"


"there are people who are *so* desperate they literally left everything behind and walked barefoot hundreds of miles risking violence and abuse to collapse at our border so no one in the us who's even marginally better off should ever get a better deal, why dont they just do what those even more desperate folks did" is a truly odd argument

Life is what you make of it. Quite frankly the poor shouldn’t be living in NYC as it is too expensive. I don’t live in SF or LA as it too is too expensive. Those are choices I made years ago when I moved away from the Bay Area. I was dirt poor, had two kids, and a small U-Haul worth of used furniture. Each of us need to make those choices. It’s not up to a company to have a pity party and pay more for those who are poor. In California, there are places that are more affordable than the cities, lots of them in fact. I’m sure outer areas of NY are better than the cities. Community college is free in this state perhaps NY should do the same. They can learn a trade and lift themselves up.

 

[harvester32]

Also, companies pay based on salary surveys. They match like workers to their own equivalent positions. They also look at inflationary data. They don’t compare the retail worker to an engineer. It’s like real estate.

 

[0423MAC]

Even worse, the argument reinforces crapping on poorer folks. "Oh, you didnt just move? Clearly you don't deserve a raise"


"there are people who are *so* desperate they literally left everything behind and walked barefoot hundreds of miles risking violence and abuse to collapse at our border so no one in the us who's even marginally better off should ever get a better deal, why dont they just do what those even more desperate folks did" is a truly odd argument

You guys really bend over backwards to find reasons why no one should get decent raises or anyone less well off than you can get any sort of better deal, it's impressive

I try not to dig into the motivations of people, but the numbers are clearly showing how misaligned incentives are. I personally think even IF it were to cost more to rebuild and bring more jobs back that it would be worth the cost. The fact that it's actually MORE EXPENSIVE to keep this charade of 'helping' people in shelters and other various programs is the the most insulting thing being done in this country.

From what I see a lot of it stems from this flawed 'strict father' approach which isn't realistic. Those ideas simply just don't scale on a state or in this case country level.

 

[seek3r]

It’s not up to a company to have a pity party and pay more for those who are poor.

It *is* literally up to the company to pay wages of a decent living (you know, what minimum wage was actually explicitly supposed to be, but today isnt). The wage *floor* is supposed to *start* at a living wage wherever the job is and go up from there. Companies benefit a great deal from the overal society that spawns them, they absolutely have a responsibility to pay decent wages, and the lost point of min wage was to enforce that. There is a core social contract here, decent pay for honest work, that seems to fall by the wayside the minute anyone on the right wants to decide who should get raises or where people should get decent wages.

 

[harvester32]

It *is* literally up to the company to pay wages of a decent living (you know, what minimum wage was actually explicitly supposed to be, but today isnt). The wage *floor* is supposed to *start* at a living wage wherever the job is and go up from there. Companies benefit a great deal from the overal society that spawns them, they absolutely have a responsibility to pay decent wages, and the lost point of min wage was to enforce that. There is a core social contract here, decent pay for honest work, that seems to fall by the wayside the minute anyone on the right wants to decide who should get raises or where people should get decent wages.

But they got a raise, and it was in line with inflation. It’s also decent money for the position. If they want more, they should upgrade their skillsets and apply for better paying jobs.

There is no social contract of a living wage. There are minimum wages to be paid and yes it can be difficult to get by on those wages. That should incentivize to “do better.” Don’t settle for the minimum, work towards the standard you want through job training, educations, job change, geography change, or any means that lessens expenses (ie moving). I didn’t want to leave my stomping grounds but realized I could jump up and down, scream, cry, point fingers, or make the changes necessary. Even that required looking inside to see what was important. I found a job in a small town that allowed me to provide for my family without having to go back for an advanced degree and miss time with my small children. Those were all factored in and while internally I wanted to point fingers (politically), shed a tear, scream at the unfairness, none of that would work to better my life. If more saw that side of themselves in that they’re capable of making the necessary changes it would be more impactful on their lives.

 

[nathansz]

But they got a raise, and it was in line with inflation. It’s also decent money for the position. If they want more, they should upgrade their skillsets and apply for better paying jobs.

There is no social contract of a living wage. There are minimum wages to be paid and yes it can be difficult to get by on those wages. That should incentivize to “do better.” Don’t settle for the minimum, work towards the standard you want through job training, educations, job change, geography change, or any means that lessens expenses (ie moving). I didn’t want to leave my stomping grounds but realized I could jump up and down, scream, cry, point fingers, or make the changes necessary. Even that required looking inside to see what was important. I found a job in a small town that allowed me to provide for my family without having to go back for an advanced degree and miss time with my small children. Those were all factored in and while internally I wanted to point fingers (politically), shed a tear, scream at the unfairness, none of that would work to better my life. If more saw that side of themselves in that they’re capable of making the necessary changes it would be more impactful on their lives.

The problem with this sort of thinking is that it means a society/economy that relies on some number of people always struggling just to survive

There is so much wealth and plenty in the world that it is simply unnecessary

There is no actual logistical reason for wealth to become continually more and more concentrated among fewer and fewer people

 

[nathansz]

You combine this with other programs that have hurt the middle class

stock buy backs are what destroyed the middle class.

working in a store used to be a middle class job.

when stock buy backs were made legal in North America in the 1980s the boards and controlling owners of large corporations began taking money that they would have spent on wages (and, incidentally r&d, but that's another topic) and using it to buy their own stock back in order to manipulate markets, hide profits (in order to pay less tax, ie: to contribute less to civil society) and enrich their largest shareholders (ie: themselves)

*edits for spelling

 

[DownUnderDan]

The CEO of a for-profit company prioritizing the financial health of the company itself as required by law for someone in his position? No way!

Now, explain to me, convincingly, why someone at the top end of the scale in the article deserves to make $62,400 annually for tapping on an iPad to ask someone in the back of the store to bring out the product I am picking up? And please justify it by also explaining why most of the time I end up knowing more about the product than they do. I worked retail as well, so any claims of elitism will be useless. I just want to know why people like yourself want to pretend these workers are out on street corners selling matchbooks to make ends meet.

Well I would say to keep you happy and thinking your view of your position in life is correct, that would take incredible customer service skills and quite a bit of BS. Worth an employee raise in my opinion.

 

[The_Auryn]

The comedian Bill Burr had the best take on Apple and Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs always came out by himself on stage as if he single-handedly invented the iPhone. He should have had a set of bleachers behind him, filled with all the engineers who made it happen.

 

[0423MAC]

The comedian Bill Burr had the best take on Apple and Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs always came out by himself on stage as if he single-handedly invented the iPhone. He should have had a set of bleachers behind him, filled with all the engineers who made it happen.

Anyone who follows this stuff closely knows that's obviously not the case, but this clip captures the story pretty well.

 

[Abazigal]

Apple notably did not engage in mass layoffs unlike the rest of the tech industry a couple of months back. I guess that’s the trade off. Their benefits may not be the best in the industry, but there does seem to be a better degree of job security, and employees are going to have to decide whether that’s worth the trade-off.

 

[Dobbs2]

I wasn’t aware that Apple stores in the US were staffed by undocumented migrant workers

If you want to continue being pedantic with everyone of your replies

Dreamers/DACA are technically able to be staff in Apple Stores.

 

[nathansz]

If you want to continue being pedantic with everyone of your replies

Dreamers/DACA are technically able to be staff in Apple Stores.

I don't think asking someone to clarify their racist innuendo is all that pedantic

their intent was obviously to imply that immigration drives down wages, but they won't actually say that because they either know that the claim will not stand up to scrutiny, or they are just mimicking others that do know that

 

[Chuckeee]

their intent was obviously to imply that immigration drives down wages, but they won't actually say that because they either know that the claim will not stand up to scrutiny, or they are just mimicking others that do know that

While I agree that by itself “immigration lowers wages” is a false premise. The other thing to consider is that ILLEGAL immigration can drive down wages (thinking of home construction as an example). Exploitation of workers by extorting lower wages (and No benefits) based on blackmail of their legal status is an issue. The problem is their status as illegal, not that they are immigrants. By legalizing immigration you can fixed many woes.

 

[boss.king]

Apple notably did not engage in mass layoffs unlike the rest of the tech industry a couple of months back. I guess that’s the trade off. Their benefits may not be the best in the industry, but there does seem to be a better degree of job security, and employees are going to have to decide whether that’s worth the trade-off.

I'm pretty sure they didn't do mass layoffs simply because they didn't over-hire in the first place. A bunch of big tech companies (Fb, Amazon, etc) were massively overstaffed in some areas, with rumours going around that there were standing orders to hire quality candidates simply so their competition wouldn't have access to them.

 

[agathezol]

The economic illiteracy on display in this thread (and the country at-large) is breathtaking, but clearly par for the course. As I learned in my Econ 1 class back in community college from a professor who was not particularly friendly towards capitalism, but was honest, "Words like 'should' and 'could' are value judgments. They don't belong in economics." When you say "Apple should pay more" or "Apple could pay more", you are not discussing economics; you are making a value judgment, which may hold some kind of value somewhere - but not in the realm of discussing the price for goods and services (which includes labor).

Here's the bummer of the truth: labor is like any other commodity, and the price of labor (i.e. "compensation") is determined by the same mechanism as all other commodities: supply and demand. If Apple, or anyone else, tried to truly underpay their employees, they wouldn't have any employees, or there'd be such a turnover that Apple would lose money on the cost of filling empty positions and training those new workers. I know this sounds cold and unfeeling, but economics is not about feelings. It's about studying human behavior and the allocation of scarce resources. Don't like it? There's only one alternative to the market economy: a command economy. Command economies have born out, in every instance, surpluses and shortages of goods - in other words, an inefficient allocation of scarce resources.

That said, there are many serious problems with our market economy, and not only in the sense of "all human institutions are flawed", which is certainly true. We have unique flaws in our system that I would love to see addressed, but the forces that created these problems are the same forces that prevent their being addressed - and those forces reside in all political parties and the big government bureaucracy, big business, and big labor. That understandably created the reactionary response of "burn it all down" - but then what? A command economy? No, thank you. Better everyone learn a thing or two about economics (not talking about deep dives... just a basic introduction to microeconomics and macroeconomics from a source that isn't predisposed towards Marx and his pathetic failures in predicting the future of capitalism).

Market economies can theoretically be fixed; command economies are flawed by their very nature.

 

[picpicmac]

There are millions of illegals coming over our southern border.

It's odd to me that on a tech forum nominally about Apple products that right-wing scare polemics are not laughed out of this forum.

Dude, do you really believe that some Guatemalan family who lived through travelling hundreds of miles of trials, all the way to the US border in hopes of escaping whatever bad scene they found themselves in, are going to show up at the Apple store the next day/week/month staffing the expert counter?

 

[picpicmac]

What the pay issue with Apple retail really emphasizes is the generic issue that became manifest a couple of decades ago: are brick and mortar stores needed for commerce any more?

In many cases the answer has been no. Stores of all sorts have closed all across the US.

If I can order from the Apple Store or Amazon and have the product on my doorstep the next day, the only use an Apple Store can be is a place to return a product for repair.

And even that is not needed if one has AppleCare as Apple will send you a box in which to send the defective part back for repair.

Retail has been, at least since the end of WWII, not a good-paying job. It's always been low paying as an hourly position. Hence big ticket items (e.g. automobiles) often have sales people working on commissions, as motivation and reward.

I've only used an Apple Store service capability once, and that was when I was in Osaka and that was almost two decades ago. It was a very useful thing for me to have such a store close as the HD in my (original) Mac Book Pro stopped working. All I had to do is take the subway to the stop near the store and plop it on the counter and come back a few days later to pick it up.

And maybe that is what Apple Stores really should be: Apple Service Centers. Maybe most of the retail function really isn't needed. And that may be why Apple does not feel the need to raise the employee wages much at all.

 

[agathezol]

What the pay issue with Apple retail really emphasizes is the generic issue that became manifest a couple of decades ago: are brick and mortar stores needed for commerce any more?

In many cases the answer has been no. Stores of all sorts have closed all across the US.

If I can order from the Apple Store or Amazon and have the product on my doorstep the next day, the only use an Apple Store can be is a place to return a product for repair.

And even that is not needed if one has AppleCare as Apple will send you a box in which to send the defective part back for repair.

Retail has been, at least since the end of WWII, not a good-paying job. It's always been low paying as an hourly position. Hence big ticket items (e.g. automobiles) often have sales people working on commissions, as motivation and reward.

I've only used an Apple Store service capability once, and that was when I was in Osaka and that was almost two decades ago. It was a very useful thing for me to have such a store close as the HD in my (original) Mac Book Pro stopped working. All I had to do is take the subway to the stop near the store and plop it on the counter and come back a few days later to pick it up.

And maybe that is what Apple Stores really should be: Apple Service Centers. Maybe most of the retail function really isn't needed. And that may be why Apple does not feel the need to raise the employee wages much at all.

I'm like you in this respect - I rarely enter brick and mortar stores. When I absolutely have needed to enter an Apple Store, I am astounded by how far out I need to make an appointment. While you and I may not use them often, or at all, clearly A LOT of people do such that the capacity at the stores is reached at most/all times. I can personally attest that my mother, mother-in-law, wife, and daughter all have used the Apple Store as a place to check out which product is the right one for them before purchasing it, so it's not all just visits for servicing. If the stores were neither necessary nor profitable, I reckon Tim and his crack staff of bean counters would make the judgment that they could save a ton of money by shutting some/most/all of them down.

The pay for retail has never been great - not just since WWII. This is for the same reason the pay for janitors has never been great: it is unskilled labor, thus the supply for such labor is very high. This keeps the price of the labor relatively low.

 

[nathansz]

…

 

[Bigkool2inSC]

I have never met anyone that has said..

"I make the right amount of money for what I do"..

no one is ever happy.. always want more and more and more..

several have disagreed but can anyone actually prove me wrong..

find one person in your life that will say something like " I am getting paid exactly what my time is worth"

 

[nathansz]

Haha no kidding. I’m in healthcare and we actually had a pay CUT during the 2020/2021 winter covid wave. 4% sounds pretty good in comparison 😂

I guess that’s what for profit health care gets you.

 

[Razorpit]

Oh yeah you are a centrist. Sure!

Ive read so many of your far right and conspiracy theory posts on these forums that this literally made me laugh out loud.

If you’re such a fan than you know I only have two kinds of posts. Things that actually happened and things that happened yet.

stock buy backs are what destroyed the middle class.

working in a store used to be a middle class job.

when stock buy backs were made legal in North America in the 1980s the boards and controlling owners of large corporations began taking money that they would have spent on wages (and, incidentally r&d, but that's another topic) and using it to buy their own stock back in order to manipulate markets, hide profits (in order to pay less tax, ie: to contribute less to civil society) and enrich their largest shareholders (ie: themselves)

*edits for spelling

Wow, and I’m the conspiracy theorist? Eight years of Clinton, and almost 12 of Obama, plus how many years of a democratically controlled congress and this wrong had never been righted? 🙄

I don't think asking someone to clarify their racist innuendo is all that pedantic

their intent was obviously to imply that immigration drives down wages, but they won't actually say that because they either know that the claim will not stand up to scrutiny, or they are just mimicking others that do know that

You don’t agree with facts so the person that states them is a racist. Wow, haven’t heard that one before. 🙄

Dude, do you really believe that some Guatemalan family who lived through travelling hundreds of miles of trials, all the way to the US border in hopes of escaping whatever bad scene they found themselves in, are going to show up at the Apple store the next day/week/month staffing the expert counter?

There’s more to the thread than where you picked up on it. And as it’s been said already, yes DACA recipients are eligible. There are hundreds of thousands of people that are willing to work for nothing. HR departments across the country can’t wait to take advantage of all this cheap labor.

 

[nathansz]

Wow, and I’m the conspiracy theorist? Eight years of Clinton, and almost 12 of Obama, plus how many years of a democratically controlled congress and this wrong had never been righted? 🙄

That’s not a conspiracy theory that’s economic history.

Not sure what your point is about Clinton or Obama. Democrats and Republicans in the us seem to have pretty much the same economic agendas.