Apple Says Epic Games 'Wants Us to Be Android, But We Don't Want to Be'

[ArtOfWarfare]

"Epic wants us to be Android, but we don't want to be," said Apple lawyer Karen Dunn, referring to the ability to sideload apps outside of the Google Play store on Android devices. "Our consumers don't want that either," she added.

#1, no, people want iOS's rules to be like macOS's rules. Stop trying to suggest that it's a radical idea to permit apps to be installed from the internet. Every other major OS allows this - iOS is the only one that doesn't.

#2, there's tons of evidence that despite all the hoops involved, people actively go through it all to be able to install other apps on iOS. How on earth is Apple trying to argue otherwise - they've never intentionally allowed it before, meaning most people aren't aware there's other options.

 

[OwlBundy]

Our consumers don't want that either," she added.

This is actually a really weak argument considering they have the exact opposite stance on app tracking which is give the customer a choice. If consumers want to be tracked they can opt in. If consumers want to side load apps they can opt in. If their customer base really has no interest in anything but using the app store then what's the problem?

 

[Act3]

And the lark is nature’s most unhappy bird?

What does that have to do with the topic?

Right over your head. Think about it. Apple has Apple Arcade. Maybe apple make a game as successful or popular as fortnite none of this would even be an issue. People wouldn’t want or bother to play an epic game on their device.

and we got the whole Xbox cloud crap apple refuses to allow a dedicated app for that. All bs

 

[cmaier]

Right over your head. Think about it. Apple has Apple Arcade. Maybe apple make a game as successful or popular as fortnite none of this would even be an issue. People wouldn’t want or bother to play an epic game on their device.

How would that affect anything? Epic still would want to put its own App Store on ios. Fortnite failing or succeeding is irrelevant.

In fact, if fortnite made MORE money, it would be less likely for Epic to sue.

 

[japasneezemonk]

I recommend the MacStories article discussing this. The author is an experienced lawyer.

Epic Versus Apple: The MacStories Overview

Later today, Epic Games and Apple will square off in a high-stakes trial in US federal district court that’s nominally about money. However, if that were all that was at stake, the claims each company has made against the other would likely have been resolved by now. Companies the size of Apple...

www.macstories.net

Awesome! Thanks for the link. This is one of the best articles I've read on the case that clarifies the muddiness of the facts.

 

[4nNtt]

You can buy Fortnite V-Bucks gift cards at your local grocery store.

So clearly Epic has already figured out this "outside the App Store" thing...



View attachment 1769406

Technically this is probably against the store terms if they are redeemed on a website since you can’t actually play the game on the web. However games backed by large companies like Fortnite and Minecraft have gotten away with this. They can’t be redeemed in app, so there are hurdles. If the majority of gamers buy outside the App Store it is also against the App Store terms.

 

[Act3]

How would that affect anything? Epic still would want to put its own App Store on ios. Fortnite failing or succeeding is irrelevant.

In fact, if fortnite made MORE money, it would be less likely for Epic to sue.

The fact that fortnite is so popular has a lot to do with it and makes tons of money without apple has a lot to do with it. Fortnite/epic will succeed with or without apple store. The iOS users that want fortnite on their iPhones and iPads are the ones getting the shaft

 

[Emanuel Rodriguez]

It's their system. Their product. Naturally, they have control. Monopolists they say but do you want other men to touch your wife?

...some people are into that...
...
...
...
...I'll leave now.

 

[cmaier]

The fact that fortnite is so popular has a lot to do with it and makes tons of money without apple has a lot to do with it. Fortnite/epic will succeed with or without apple store. The iOS users that want fortnite on their iPhones and iPads are the ones getting the shaft

What are you talking about? What does any of that have to do with this lawsuit?

 

[31 Flavas]

I could get behind this. I picked iOS precisely because it wasn’t Android. If I wanted Android that’s what I would have bought.

Right, I have to ask critics (not you), given that Android has all the open-ness, all the customizablity, all the 3rd party app stores, 3rd party payments are possible (outside of apps distributed though Google Play), and most critically allows for user directed side-loading of any app ...

Why then do consumers and developers not prefer the Android platform? I mean, sure you can really play into the angle that a portion of consumers are just that ignorant and that bewitched by Apple marketing -- but the majority of consumers instead own Android phones. Making Android's market share overwhelming. Is it not 5x that of Apple? The befits that critics laud Android for should make it very clearly superior to develop for and deliver profitable mobile phone applications to that giant userbase.

So, I'd like critics to inform me what is that (from Apple) that hinders or otherwise don't make Android not only the premiere mobile app development platform... But, what limits it from being the most profitable to the developers?

Yes, I get that you can argue that Apple's "ironfisted despotism" should be broken up... But, that despotism of Apple's iOS market place should be marginalized by Android / Google's way more flexible app rules, possibility to use 3rd Party payments or direct sales, independent 3rd party app stores, and in general, just reduced restrictions on what can be developed and delivered (in the first place). I'd think the Android market space (not just the Google Play store) should be thriving with the openness allowed and provided by Android. And, otherwise, crushing Apple's crappy development terms and egregious revenue cut / fees for App Store distribution.

 

[GSWForever8]

I paid extra for the iPhone experience. Don’t ruin it Fortnite!

 

[JosephAW]

There’s a lot of happy lawyers $$$

 

[zorinlynx]

I wish Apple users would realize that you can still have a walled garden if you want to. All that Epic is asking for is a door.

People who like Apple's curated space can stay inside an be comfortable there. People who want more choices can unlock the door and step outside.

All applications would still be subject to iOS's strong sandboxing and security; you'd just have more choices where you can get apps.

And for people saying "Well you would have to leave the sandbox to install Epic's games"... well, you can't install them at all right now, so this would be an improvement.

 

[cmaier]

I wish Apple users would realize that you can still have a walled garden if you want to. All that Epic is asking for is a door.

People who like Apple's curated space can stay inside an be comfortable there. People who want more choices can unlock the door and step outside.

All applications would still be subject to iOS's strong sandboxing and security; you'd just have more choices where you can get apps.

And for people saying "Well you would have to leave the sandbox to install Epic's games"... well, you can't install them at all right now, so this would be an improvement.

Any door is a potential entryway for bad actors. So I don’t want a damned door. I don’t even want my phone to have the OPTION to run apps not signed by apple. Because once that option exists, bad actors will take advantage of it, and the next thing you know you’re browsing the web, an app is silently downloaded to your phone without you knowing it, and it is free to execute and do who knows what, because apple can’t stop it.

 

[Techwatcher]

Epic needs to drop this case already. They’re looking like clowns. You don’t see Roblox Corporation acting like this and their game technically has a larger player base.

 

[mr_jomo]

"Epic wants us to be Android, but we don't want to be," said Apple lawyer Karen Dunn, referring to the ability to sideload apps outside of the Google Play store on Android devices. "Our consumers don't want that either," she added."

Speaking of course only for my self: that's right!

 

[Blkant]

While there are many things, as a customer, I do not agree with Apple on; the "walled garden" is very much a key component on why I buy an iPhone instead of an Android. I do not want every little application requesting my credit card information, storing it god knows where with some vague promise (if any) of security.

Certainly people will oversimplify and say this only provides a choice, with many idiots likely claiming that the inevitable default response of "but who would support Apples payment system then?" as evidence Apples method is flawed. But the reality is there is no breach in the markets integrity here much less a forced hand to the general consumer as there exists lively competition. This is well demonstrated when Epic revealed how small of a footprint the iPhone makes for their flagship title. The only thing here is Epic complaining their profit margin could be larger while providing me little to nothing in return but some half ass trinket offering for their bounty. This in return for stripping me of my choice in buying an iPhone for the ecosystem all while putting me at risk by forcing me to spread my personal information across countless sites.

Make no mistake that Apple is in it for the profit all the same, but their system provides security and continuity, all under my personal choice to purchases it with that purpose in mind. Who are they to tell the creator of the device, the OS and the very platform they can't? Who are they to tell me I can't want that?

With the smallest foot print this was the lowest profit risk to pick a fight with. Should there be any success they'll go after Nintendo, Microsoft and PlayStation next. This will set a very bad precedence for many platforms people love for the very reasons they are attacking, all for their own selfish reasons.

At first I was just saddened to hear of the dispute, but in hindsight, Epic also abandoned Unreal and Unreal Tournament. So with that last tidbit I offer an irrelevant extra screw Epic Games.

 

[SuperMatt]

I wish Apple users would realize that you can still have a walled garden if you want to. All that Epic is asking for is a door.

People who like Apple's curated space can stay inside an be comfortable there. People who want more choices can unlock the door and step outside.

All applications would still be subject to iOS's strong sandboxing and security; you'd just have more choices where you can get apps.

And for people saying "Well you would have to leave the sandbox to install Epic's games"... well, you can't install them at all right now, so this would be an improvement.

Epic has a very weak case. They are not acting in good faith. They basically want free placement on the App Store while collecting money from users directly. That’s not gonna happen. It doesn’t happen on consoles either. The macstories article gets into more detail of why their case seems doomed from the start.

 

[quarkysg]

All that Epic is asking for is a door.

EPIC has access to a door, but they choose to demand another door custom made to their specifications on a property not owned by them. How is this even reasonable?

 

[9927036]

That is actually not a bad idea. The reason I went with iOS since the start and keep it as such was and is the App Store and it's security. I haven't heard of single malware for iOS vs hundreds for Android.

Then you should read more. Even the threads on MacRumors talk of the malware in the App Store.

 

[George Dawes]

I don't see what the big fuss about Fortnite is , played it once thought it was pretty dull and derivative tbh .

Certainly not in the same league as Borderlands 3 etc

 

[Martinpa]

Maybe apple make a game as successful or popular as fortnite none of this would even be an issue. People wouldn’t want or bother to play an epic game on their device.

You think if Apple made a game that accelerated the already impending downfall of Fortnite, that there wouldn’t be an issue? Bold. If anything, Epic would bitch and moan even more saying Apple abused its “monopolistic” position to give itself an advantage against Epic. Come on.

 

[4nNtt]

Yep I agree. And Apple knows this which is why they don't want to be forced to turn into Android. Lets be real here, the hardware on the iPhone is not anything crazy special. There are some Android phones that are better and cheaper from a hardware perspective. And like you, if Apple is "forced" to turn iOS into Android, I will also leave.

Leave for what? iOS will never be Android even if they are forced to add a side load. I think all would be fine if that were to happen, but I don’t really care either way. The App Store is 90% fine in my opinion. There are just a few areas where Apple is extra anti-competitive that really hurt my image of them I would like to see changed. Unfortunately that doesn’t really seem to be the goal of this suit.

 

[31 Flavas]

I find it interesting in how cases like these allow each side to use the other side’s internal emails, texts, etc.

Torn on this case in general. While I agree with some of Epic’s argument(s) intentionally violating the ToS in the Apple Developer agreement and prepping for the law suit for the past few years seems bizarre.

Basically premeditated on Epic’s part.

Are you familiar with Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo? They make their own video game systems over which they rule with the same "despotism" and 30% cut. No direct sales, no 3rd party online game stores, even physical retail copies of games don't get to store shelves without going though Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo's distribution channels - where they get their 30% cut.

If we're arguing that Apple's "monopoly" is illegal - what makes Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo's own individually monopolized "markets" different from Apple's?

If we're going to say they're different because Sony and Microsoft subsidize their expensive console hardware to make it cheaper for consumers - and therefore have to make it back in the 30% charged to developers ... what of when the "debt" is repaid? Or, what of Nintendo that historically out of the gate is profitable on the hardware? That's the same as Apple.

The other question would be - if Sony and Microsoft are off the hook because of initial hardware subsidy ... Does Apple only need to implement the same sidestep the "Monopolization" charge and maintain their required (no side-stepping) 30% cut?

 

[japasneezemonk]

I have Netflix on iOS but I never paid through the App Store. How come Epic can’t do that? Allow payments outside the App Store.

I am just so worried some dumb judge is going to screw this up.

That is the argument that Apple is making. That Fortnite users can buy V-Bucks outside of the App store and that users don't have to exclusively buy them as an in App purchase.

In addition, Epic wants to define the market as the in App purchases and iOS app distribution, however Epic does not want to include the broader platform/console market in which users also have access to Fortnite, a game that is similar on other devices and consoles such as Xbox, Playstation, etc...