Apple Says Epic Games 'Wants Us to Be Android, But We Don't Want to Be'

[DeepWebinar]

As someone who only started using an iPhone because I like the phone design and interface, and a person who doesn’t tend to defend corporations, I’m all for breaking up Apple’s control on what I can do with my device. The leaked emails show that Apple’s primary concern is monetary, which obviously, they’re a for-profit organization, but what’s the point of siding with the tech giant whose interests lie in keeping you walled in to their system? Don’t get me wrong, Epic is a tech giant too and not worth defending, but I feel like as a user of these phones who isn’t interested in giving Apple any more of my money they don’t already have, I’m with Epic on this one. I’d think developers would feel the same way, but I don’t know.

I mean this question in good faith: for the folks who are worried this would affect the security of your device, can’t you not download apps from a third party store? Outside of that, what are the reasons for defending Apple?

 

[frenchcamp49er]

pretty sure Epic gaming has been better than apple's offerings or lack there of

and? Has absolutely nothing to do with the case

 

[quarkysg]

Outside of that, what are the reasons for defending Apple?

In this particular context, EPIC broke their contract with Apple and sued. So I would side with Apple.

 

[frenchcamp49er]

#1, no, people want iOS's rules to be like macOS's rules. Stop trying to suggest that it's a radical idea to permit apps to be installed from the internet. Every other major OS allows this - iOS is the only one that doesn't.

#2, there's tons of evidence that despite all the hoops involved, people actively go through it all to be able to install other apps on iOS. How on earth is Apple trying to argue otherwise - they've never intentionally allowed it before, meaning most people aren't aware there's other options.

Proof? How many people? Tons?

 

[frenchcamp49er]

The only thing this case is about, Epic violated their contract with Apple. Its really that easy.

 

[31 Flavas]

I wish Apple users would realize that you can still have a walled garden if you want to. All that Epic is asking for is a door.

People who like Apple's curated space can stay inside an be comfortable there. People who want more choices can unlock the door and step outside.

All applications would still be subject to iOS's strong sandboxing and security; you'd just have more choices where you can get apps.

And for people saying "Well you would have to leave the sandbox to install Epic's games"... well, you can't install them at all right now, so this would be an improvement.

Should not the same be applied to the walled gardens of Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo console or portable handheld systems? Would developers for those systems not be asking for the similar "door" for 3rd party or direct sales to customers? Maybe there is some benefit to getting physical copies on to store shelves by using Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo's physical retail distribution (and / or - online store), but should developers and -consumers- have the door and option to directly support the developers instead?

These consoles are just PC's anyway - shouldn't all 3 be prohibited from letting users unlock them and do just that (make them PCs)?

 

[zorinlynx]

Any door is a potential entryway for bad actors. So I don’t want a damned door. I don’t even want my phone to have the OPTION to run apps not signed by apple. Because once that option exists, bad actors will take advantage of it, and the next thing you know you’re browsing the web, an app is silently downloaded to your phone without you knowing it, and it is free to execute and do who knows what, because apple can’t stop it.

Any such option would be a switch that YOU would have to flip, that would be off by default.

I don't understand why people don't understand this.

 

[zorinlynx]

#1, no, people want iOS's rules to be like macOS's rules. Stop trying to suggest that it's a radical idea to permit apps to be installed from the internet. Every other major OS allows this - iOS is the only one that doesn't.

You just explained it better than I did. You can run whatever you want on MacOS, and it is a thriving, capable platform. The same should be true for iOS.

Apple's app store will always be there for those who are distrusting of other sources, like it is on the Mac.

 

[Apleeseed84]

I mean, Microsoft is rumored to try to do an 88/12 split in the gaming community, heh, this will get interesting with Apple for sure

 

[Kris28]

Fortnite as Facbook about iOS 14.5, if you are not happy-you should build own smartfon, platform and ecosystem. we are glad from Apple system. My house-my rules!!

 

[Michael Scrip]

Any such option would be a switch that YOU would have to flip, that would be off by default.

I don't understand why people don't understand this.

Correct.

However... there could be hundreds of millions of YOUs out in the world.

If only 20% of iPhone users flipped that switch... that's 200 million iPhones out of the billion iPhones that could potentially get attacked somehow. All it takes is that door to be opened and it could be exploited by bad actors.

Would it ever come to that? Who knows. There are billions of Android devices that have the option but I'm not sure if there are hundreds of millions of zombie Android devices wrecking the world.

But here's the point... Apple decided to implement a "no unsigned code" policy on iOS devices. And it seems to work pretty well.

So who is Epic to come in and demand that Apple change that policy?

 

[robco74]

You just explained it better than I did. You can run whatever you want on MacOS, and it is a thriving, capable platform. The same should be true for iOS.

Apple's app store will always be there for those who are distrusting of other sources, like it is on the Mac.

No, no it won't be there. The MAS is optional. Many devs put their apps there, but many do not. Blizzard for example.

The moment the App Store is no longer the only way to get apps onto iOS and iPadOS devices, you can bet that Facebook will immediately pull their apps and release them separately. Any guess as to how well they will respect App Tracking Transparency when they are no longer required to do so?

If the US government wants to meddle in the app business, then at minimum we should have an equivalent to GDPR to curb some of the more egregious behavior of ad-based services.

 

[TheDailyApple]

Maybe Apple should just create BootCamp Android Edition. Then every iPhone user will have the option to throw away the security and privacy of iOS for the “freedom” of android. Then Apple can prove once and for all that people who buy iPhones prefer iOS, and people who prefer android don’t buy iPhones to begin with.

 

[Kris28]

Epic- if you don't like my coffee , go please to another bar.....

 

[cmaier]

Any such option would be a switch that YOU would have to flip, that would be off by default.

I don't understand why people don't understand this.

Because you seem not to understand cryptography as it applies to OS protections. Any “switch” to be flipped is a potential attack vector. The fact that the OS allows, with a flipped switch, apps not signed by Apple to execute, is an attack vector. Even if I don’t download another “App Store,” and even if i never download an app from an alternative App Store, the OS is now much less secure. It’s the inexorable result, stemming from mathematics, of allowing a mechanism to bypass apple’s own certificate checks.

 

[lazyrighteye]

I recommend the MacStories article discussing this. The author is an experienced lawyer.

Epic Versus Apple: The MacStories Overview

Later today, Epic Games and Apple will square off in a high-stakes trial in US federal district court that’s nominally about money. However, if that were all that was at stake, the claims each company has made against the other would likely have been resolved by now. Companies the size of Apple...

www.macstories.net

That is an excellent read. Thanks for bringing that to our attention.

I’m not a lawyer. I’m a creative director. When I saw the 1984-spoofed ad Epic put out immediately after getting kicked out of the App Store, I knew that caliber of production didn’t just happen over night. That would take weeks, if not months, to develop and produce. That’s when you knew Epic had clearly been working on this for a while. Again, not a lawyer, but that intentionally deceptive approach is dirty. Amateur. I mean, if Epic wanted to effectively go after Apple, it seems there are a dozen better strategies than that which they chose. Again, not a lawyer, but this case seems worthy of dismissal. What an epic waste of time and resources.

Did I mention I’m not a lawyer?

 

[cmaier]

You just explained it better than I did. You can run whatever you want on MacOS, and it is a thriving, capable platform. The same should be true for iOS.

Apple's app store will always be there for those who are distrusting of other sources, like it is on the Mac.

But the mac is MUCH more susceptible to malware than iOS, exactly because it uses the mechanism you are proposing for iOS. Why should the rest of us have to suffer so that Tim Sweeney can get a little richer?

 

[cmaier]

#1, no, people want iOS's rules to be like macOS's rules. Stop trying to suggest that it's a radical idea to permit apps to be installed from the internet. Every other major OS allows this - iOS is the only one that doesn't.

#2, there's tons of evidence that despite all the hoops involved, people actively go through it all to be able to install other apps on iOS. How on earth is Apple trying to argue otherwise - they've never intentionally allowed it before, meaning most people aren't aware there's other options.

Point #1 is simply false. Many operating systems don;t allow this. In fact, MOST operating systems don’t allow it. With few exceptions, you can’t install your own apps on your cable box, your car, your game console, your microwave, your router, your home appliances, etc. Etc.

We don’t want iOS to be like macOS, because we want security, and iOS is much more secure than macOS. We don’t want to have to run antivirus apps on our phones, or to have to deal with gatekeeper, or to be worried about drive-by web browsing attacks. All that is possible on macOS because no matter what apple does, by leaving the ability to side load apps there will always be vulnerabilities.

 

[Kris28]

I'm in

I'm in, the same- iPhone, MacBook Pro m1- happy user without antivirus software and new wirus signature as for Windows with peace of mind

 

[CmdrLaForge]

Our consumers don't want that either," she added.

actually that’s true for me

 

[mr_jomo]

Because you seem not to understand cryptography as it applies to OS protections. Any “switch” to be flipped is a potential attack vector. The fact that the OS allows, with a flipped switch, apps not signed by Apple to execute, is an attack vector. Even if I don’t download another “App Store,” and even if i never download an app from an alternative App Store, the OS is now much less secure. It’s the inexorable result, stemming from mathematics, of allowing a mechanism to bypass apple’s own certificate checks.

Very well put - was going to write a similar answer 🥳.

And now we wait for the inevitable counter arguments:
1 - "but it's only a 'tiny' fraction more unsafe"
2 - "but still, I want MY freedom at the cost of YOUR security", and of course
3 - "cryto-what, what-math, what-what?"

 

[lazyrighteye]

They also stated that the 30% is hurting them, but when asked about it today the response is that they are fine with the Playstation, Xbox and Switch 30%. Which means it’s not hurting them. That and this whole thing is planned. Epic has a hard time due to how they handled it.

“Amateurs, Dude.”

 

[7149041]

All that Epic is asking for is a door.

They are asking for a backdoor, and that would compromise the safety of the platform which, unlike personal computers, was built from the start with this kind of strict security in mind.

Next thing you know you'll having the same famous Android issues like "I clicked a link on WhatsApp and now all my contacts are getting a link to a scam site".

Unless, of course, the "switch" to enable this behavior is very deep in the system and requires a reboot into "unsafe mode". But that's asking Apple to build in a JailBreak into their own devices.

 

[fafner]

For Android they only had it in their own store (side loading the app) but most people still preferred the google App Store so they complains anyway…

So they don’t just want side loading, they still want to be in the Apple or Google store (because there are most of the customers) but they don’t want to pay for the advantage to be there!

‘Fortnite’ Is Finally Available On The Google Play Store

Epic Games has finally released 'Fortnite' on the Google Play store, but not before firing some shots across the bow at Google.

www.forbes.com

 

[Keymaster]

I mean this question in good faith: for the folks who are worried this would affect the security of your device, can’t you not download apps from a third party store? Outside of that, what are the reasons for defending Apple?

It's not so simple. First of all, if a sideloaded app causes a security breach, Apple will receive blame, possibly all of it. Second, these apps may not obey the rules of iOS when it comes to security, and if they open access then it's possible a hacker could ride that into the network the iOS device is on...again, Apple would receive blame. Basically all of the consequences of crappy apps would fall onto Apple, from security breaches to resource hogging to taking our information without notifying us. And that's without getting into the malware that you might pick up from apps or a web browser that allows things to run on the device.

Apple does not have a monopoly on devices in this class, whether you're talking about phones, tables, or stores...there are many, many options out there. Apple has chosen to set up their devices to work a certain way, just like others do...the real difference is that Apple has created a way to keep their devices more secure, and the users appreciate that difference. The dues for developers were created in line with the rest of the industry, and no one is suing to drop the prices at other stores. This is really about Epic trying to game the system so they can have all of the profits without paying for anything...it's just like rich people not paying taxes but driving down the road and having the police and fire department protect their homes.

Apple does plenty of things that are annoying, but in this case they are in the right, it is their ecosystem, they developed the rules, and others need to play by those rules. Everyone is treated equally, it's just some companies who want all of the advantages without any responsibility towards supporting the platform that are at issue.