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az431

Suspended
Sep 13, 2008
2,131
6,122
Portland, OR
Good analogy.

Here is another analogy that is car related:
  • You buy a new car.
  • You purchase an extended warranty.
  • After buying the car, you add an aftermarket supercharger or turbocharger to your car.
  • At a future trip to a dealership service department, you are informed that your warranty is voided because of the aftermarket supercharger / turbocharger.
Had you looked into what can void a warranty (for example, using an aftermarket air filter should NOT void the warranty in the US), then you would have known not to do what you did. You could have instead chosen to:
  • Buy a used car - typically they don't have a warranty, or the warranty is so limited you would probably never benefit from it.
  • Don't buy an extended warranty since you know you want a new car and you want to do something that will void the warranty.
  • Wait until the warranty expires before you do something that voids the warranty.
  • Try and find a car manufacturer that will not void the warratnty when you do what you want to do.
This is a real world example. I may very well add a turbocharger or supercharger to my car (can't get either as a factory option), but I will wait until the extended warranty has expired.

False analogy and lots of bull. First, this has nothing to do with replacing parts or warranties. Your use of iOS is governed by a EULA, not a warranty. Under the EULA (which you agreed to) you cannot jailbreak or hack your phone.

Moreover, Apple doesn't restrict you from adding screen protectors, cases, or any other accessories, or replacing components with non-Apple parts.

Nor does Apple automatically void warranties simply because you installed an accessory or replaced parts with non-Apple parts.

Finally, if the hypothetical turbocharger in your absurd analogy blows up your engine, no manufacturer will repair the damage under warranty. Same if you modify your iPhone and the modification breaks the phone.

Stop throwing out ridiculous examples that have nothing to do with software or license agreements. They do not apply.

If you want a relevant example about "cars" check out Tesla EULA for autopilot and data retrieval.
 

Mike_Trivisonno

macrumors 6502
Jul 11, 2015
409
977
Plenty of adults would get burned by this. Apple prides itself on creating technology that is safe and accessible to the masses. Folks who prefer the Wild West have other platforms and device makers to go to, there’s no reason for Apple to risk their customers’ safety in this scenario.
I had a friend who thought that the old Ask Jeeves search engine was a run by a real dude who did web searches for you.
 
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Cosmosent

macrumors 68020
Apr 20, 2016
2,315
2,693
La Jolla, CA
Apple has a Complete & Total Stranglehold on App Discovery !

That is the #1 problem with the App Store today !

Why are there NO filters in the Today tab of the App Store app to filter-off Game Apps, Apple Arcade, etc. ?

Simply put, Apple wants to Control the Narrative !

Unless / Until there are third-party App Stores, Apple will continue to Control the Narrative, & the NON-Game portion of the existing App Store will continue to suffer.

ONLY AFTER there is competition for Discovery, will the NON-Game portion of the App Store begin to blossom !

Apparently Phil Schiller, a man who has NO software development experience OR experience running a software company, still runs the App Store !

Why is that ?

Because Tim doesn't want the General Public to know what many App Devs know, that the App Store, in its current state, is catastrophically broken WRT the NON-Game portion of it !

In other words, Phil is there to make sure certain Data about the App Store doesn't go mainstream:

Proposed new law will fix that ! ...

A proposed First New Law would require Apple to disclose per-Category Revenue Numbers for (at least) the iOS App Store here in the States, & require them to do so "at the end of each work week".

And, last but NOT least, to specify what percentage was generated by the Top 10 apps in each category, as well as what percentage of apps in each category that generated NO revenue.

Such a simple First New Law would NOT ONLY illustrate just how catastrophically broken the iOS App Store currently is, but more importantly, very-likely become the Catalyst that forces Apple's Mgmt to quickly fix it.

---

The BIGGER goal is to get the AAPL Board to force the resignation of both Cook & Schiller for intentional suppression of third-party App Innovation !

Either that, OR give-up the NON-Game portion of the App Store to a brand-new Public Utility !

---

BTW, PWA != native iOS app ! ... I hope MR readers understand the Pros & Cons of both.

Perhaps an MR staffer could enlighten everyone who doesn't.

Apple's position is BS, total BS !
 

acidblood

macrumors regular
Oct 6, 2006
119
250
Good analogy.

Here is another analogy that is car related:
  • You buy a new car.
  • You purchase an extended warranty.
  • After buying the car, you add an aftermarket supercharger or turbocharger to your car.
  • At a future trip to a dealership service department, you are informed that your warranty is voided because of the aftermarket supercharger / turbocharger.
Had you looked into what can void a warranty (for example, using an aftermarket air filter should NOT void the warranty in the US), then you would have known not to do what you did. You could have instead chosen to:
  • Buy a used car - typically they don't have a warranty, or the warranty is so limited you would probably never benefit from it.
  • Don't buy an extended warranty since you know you want a new car and you want to do something that will void the warranty.
  • Wait until the warranty expires before you do something that voids the warranty.
  • Try and find a car manufacturer that will not void the warratnty when you do what you want to do.
This is a real world example. I may very well add a turbocharger or supercharger to my car (can't get either as a factory option), but I will wait until the extended warranty has expired.
At least you have the choice of installing the turbocharger. As a responsible adult, you know what that entails, and the risks you’ll be on the hook for. You can’t complain later (well you can but people will laugh you off).

The whole issue here is that, on the iCar, you can’t even install the turbocharger; you need some kind of magic screwdriver that only Apple has.

Seeing the opportunity presented by this lack of turbochargers for the iCar, maybe someone will create a startup which will burn money trying to make one.

Unfortunately, since it never occurred to anyone that a turbocharger might be an interesting addition to the iCar, the startup must pray that the iCar part review bureaucrats won’t find that turbochargers go against some obscure rule of the iCar part developer agreement (but one that Apple will turn a blind eye to if the developers are big enough, like Netflix — maybe you’ll even get a “reader” exception to call your own!)

And Apple will then slap a 30% fee for the privilege — which evidently will get passed on to the customer, as it always must.
 

Art Mark

macrumors 6502
Jan 6, 2010
482
1,203
Oregon
This is a lie. PWA in iOS basically limited to a link in the Home Screen opening a web page on the Internet without Safari controls.

So in practice one can’t install web apps in iOS. Apple tech to support PWA installs is really feature poor not to mention non standard. Safari approach to the support of PWAs is like IE support was more than a decade ago regarding the web when MS aim was to funnel the web tech into into the Windows OS ... it was stopped from being able to do so by regulators. By assuring that in Windows people could install alternative Browser / Engines by default leading to more innovation than IE could keep up. IE, a cancer that even today has impact in LOB apps.

For instance in iOS, PWAs cannot rise notifications like apps do, local cache is very limited, opening a we page in Safari does not direct to the PWA installed and many other things that other browsers/OSs support. Default apps ... None to do with security. The reason I guess its because if they did supported as it could and should be done, as SJ initially thought it should be done, many many apps would be out of the App Store.

The difference between Safari PWA support and Native apps on iOS is the same has between paying to watch a movie in a big screen or trough a tightly controlled key hole. Yes, you have options, but in highly competitive market like digital services, servicing customers trough a key hole is not much of a viable option.
That's not what he said. Read the statement. Why is anything you bring up mandatory? Why is that the only way to reach a customer? If you want an app, make an app and release it in the app store like we all do. If you don't then use the web or develop for Android. Stop whining and do something.
 

ian87w

macrumors G3
Feb 22, 2020
8,704
12,636
Indonesia
This is what Steve Jobs already said during the early days of the app store. Back then the argument was about porn, and people were complaining why the app store didn't allow porn. Jobs simply said there's the open web, and you can do web apps, free from any restrictions.

I don't understand why people expected things to be different now. This is Apple we're talking about, the company that originally didn't even want to put expansion ports on the original Macintosh (Jobs didn't want it). Why is everyone having a surprise pikachu face now when Apple has a walled garden app store?
 

Captain Trips

macrumors 68000
Jun 13, 2020
1,850
6,270
At least you have the choice of installing the turbocharger. As a responsible adult, you know what that entails, and the risks you’ll be on the hook for. You can’t complain later (well you can but people will laugh you off).

The whole issue here is that, on the iCar, you can’t even install the turbocharger; you need some kind of magic screwdriver that only Apple has.

Seeing the opportunity presented by this lack of turbochargers for the iCar, maybe someone will create a startup which will burn money trying to make one.

Unfortunately, since it never occurred to anyone that a turbocharger might be an interesting addition to the iCar, the startup must pray that the iCar part review bureaucrats won’t find that turbochargers go against some obscure rule of the iCar part developer agreement (but one that Apple will turn a blind eye to if the developers are big enough, like Netflix — maybe you’ll even get a “reader” exception to call your own!)

And Apple will then slap a 30% fee for the privilege — which evidently will get passed on to the customer, as it always must.
And in this case then I should not buy the Apple Car - that is the point I was trying to make.

Because if I want to install a turbocharger and the Apple Car (or any other car) does not allow me to install a turbocharger, then there is no way in **** that I would buy that car.

[EDIT] And if I was going to open a business depending on being able to perform aftermarket mods to an Apple Car, then I either better do my research or decide not to take a chance because of how Apple markets, restricts and supports their other devices.
 
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ian87w

macrumors G3
Feb 22, 2020
8,704
12,636
Indonesia
Like Apple, its views on security, and the way it runs its app store? Purchase an Apple phone.

Prefer the Android model and ability to side-load apps. Purchase an Android phone. Easy.

Vote. With. Your. Money.
Exactly. I bought Android as my primary phone because it is what fits my needs. The iPhone app store is not new, so why do we still have people confused about the walled garden concept?

I imagine these same people entering a Mcdonald and then demand a kungpao chicken and then complain why Mcdonald doesn't serve them kungpao chicken. :D
 

genovelle

macrumors 68020
May 8, 2008
2,100
2,677
Lies, lies, lies... :apple: once i fully paid for my device, i should be able to side load the software i purchase separately. Glad this is finally in court.
There is always Android or Jailbreaking. You can do whatever you want, just don’t sacrifice my security and decrease Apple’s focus on making the platform better, by making it less profitable.
 

genovelle

macrumors 68020
May 8, 2008
2,100
2,677
And in this case then I should not buy the Apple Car - that is the point I was trying to make.

Because if I want to install a turbocharger and the Apple Car (or any other car) does not allow me to install a turbocharger, then there is no way in **** that I would buy that car.

[EDIT] And if I was going to open a business depending on being able to perform aftermarket mods to an Apple Car, then I either better do my research or decide not to take a chance because of how Apple markets, restricts and supports their other devices.
No automaker is going to let you add a turbo charger without voiding the warranty. They are also not going to allow you to add whatever inverted apps you want to their vehicle software.
 

acidblood

macrumors regular
Oct 6, 2006
119
250
And in this case then I should not buy the Apple Car - that is the point I was trying to make.

Because if I want to install a turbocharger and the Apple Car (or any other car) does not allow me to install a turbocharger, then there is no way in **** that I would buy that car.

[EDIT] And if I was going to open a business depending on being able to perform aftermarket mods to an Apple Car, then I either better do my research or decide not to take a chance because of how Apple markets, restricts and supports their other devices.
As a libertarian, I agree in principle with this. You should vote with your money.

Unfortunately, some of the highest quality software is only available on iOS (just as it used to be that you needed a PC with Windows to run a lot of important software in certain fields, e.g. engineering, where this is still basically the case).

I wish people valued their freedom more, and forced Apple (through natural market forces) to do the right thing. Just as Apple won’t prevent you from installing software on your Mac — it’s not even about the legislation, it’s just that the market won’t bear it.
 

Captain Trips

macrumors 68000
Jun 13, 2020
1,850
6,270
No automaker is going to let you add a turbo charger without voiding the warranty.
Which is exactly what I said in my previous post.

And that is exactly why there is no way I will put a supercharger or turbocharger on my current car that has an extended warranty.

Because I know the warranty will get voided. And I know that because I did some research and I pay attention to news items about how automotive warranties work.

And so I don't find myself in a position where I have added an after market part that voided that extended warranty that cost me thousands of US dollars.


And this is why people who don't like how Apple's products work should consider not buying or developing for them.

And yes, I realize that things change - maybe when you purchased, or started developing for Apple platforms, everything was great for you. But then something changed and it isn't great any more. That sucks - seriously. But it is life, and sometimes things do not work as you planned for or expected.
 

lkrupp

macrumors 68000
Jul 24, 2004
1,873
3,795
For those of you who think you should be able to install anything you want on ‘your’ iOS device... why do you continue to do business with Apple when you have another choice that does allow you to install anything you want? Really, why are you still in the ecosystem? If you think Android offers you the freedom you desire then move there. I don't get your logic on this matter. It sounds like cognitive dissonance or Stockholm Syndrome. Get help.
 
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