Apple Says Opposing FBI is 'Absolutely Not' a 'Marketing Strategy'

[RedOrchestra]

Finger print info is stored in secure enclave within the phone. It's security threat only if FBI gets its compromised iOS version.

If it had been anything higher than a 5c they could've just used the dead terrorists finger to open it up.

http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2014/10...be-required-to-unlock-phone-with-fingerprint/

https://www.macrumors.com/2014/10/31/fingerprints-not-protected-by-fifth-amendment/

 

[techwhiz]

If it had been anything higher than a 5c they could've just used the dead terrorists finger to open it up.

http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2014/10...be-required-to-unlock-phone-with-fingerprint/

https://www.macrumors.com/2014/10/31/fingerprints-not-protected-by-fifth-amendment/

If the FBI hadn't reset the password they would have had an iCloud backup.
The FBI flubbed this one and they want Apple to save their arses.

But the former head of the NSA sides with Apple. That should tell you something.
http://www.billboard.com/articles/business/6882398/michael-hayden-apple-tim-cook-encryption-fbi
http://wccftech.com/apple-fbi-debate-former-nsa-director-sides-with-apple-public-on-the-side-of-fbi/

 

[Nuvi]

If it had been anything higher than a 5c they could've just used the dead terrorists finger to open it up.

https://www.macrumors.com/2014/10/31/fingerprints-not-protected-by-fifth-amendment/

Which would have been perfectly fine. I have no problem with FBI accessing this one particular phone but I'm firmly against creating a "master key iOS" to every single iPhone ever built. The irony is apparent. The terrorists managed to kill only 13 people but their greatest trick was to put the privacy of millions of people in danger. Even more so, FBI is doing the dirty work for them.

 

[Mac 128]

I am really surprised that it isn't hackable without Apple's help. Are other types of phones based on Microsoft and Android just as difficult to hack?

Since Apple has admitted that they can actually bypass the encryption, and has done so in the past, how is it possible that nobody else can do it now? Granted it would be much harder if you're not the designers of the original software, but Apple is in effect saying there's already a backdoor in the OS that can be used to work around the encryption.

That's probably the most troubling aspect of this. I thought Apple had been saying the encryption was so good, even they could not access it, even if they wanted to.

 

[RedOrchestra]

But the former head of the NSA sides with Apple. That should tell you something.

And the company he works with has Apple and others as sponsors - that should tell you something.

http://www.chertoffgroup.com/eventseries/sponsorships.php

 

[Rocketman]

This is NOT a ticking time bomb case. No nukes. No WMD, No radiological bomb. These are not the droids you are looking for.

Workplace violence.

 

[ZipZap]

Its been argued to me that if you have nothing to hide and you are not partaking in illegal activities what is the issue with Apple hacking the phone.

Is the problem, that they (apple) might loose control of such code and it find its way to those with illegal purposes?

 

[terraphantm]

Since Apple has admitted that they can actually bypass the encryption, and has done so in the past, how is it possible that nobody else can do it now? Granted it would be much harder if you're not the designers of the original software, but Apple is in effect saying there's already a backdoor in the OS that can be used to work around the encryption.

That's probably the most troubling aspect of this. I thought Apple had been saying the encryption was so good, even they could not access it, even if they wanted to.

When have they stated that? They've stated that they've given data that they possess in instances they were served with lawful requests and they had said data. And even now, even if Apple complies, they're not bypassing the encryption - they simply can't. What they would be doing is making it easier for the FBI to brute force the phone's passcode (by disabling the feature that wipes data after 10 incorrect password attempts, and allowing the FBI to enter passcodes electronically rather than with the touchscreen).

What is a surprise to me is that they apparently can force an update to a phone without the passcode.

 

[sir1963nz]

Just remember, if the FBI gets it, so will France, Germany, Turkey, the UK, China, Russia, Indonesia, Australia, etc etc etc.

Terrorism is terrorism , it is not country dependant. Those countries above have ll had their citizens killed by terrorists.

If the US tries to stop them, then it comes down to:
Are those terrorists US supported, and the CIA does not want them caught ?
Are the lives of people in other countries of less value than American lives ?

If you believe American lives are more important, are you willing to risk their law enforcement taking the view that American lives are less important, and crimes against US nationals will no longer be investigated ?

How many tens of thousands of jobs will be lost ?
ALL American technology will be considered an extension of the US government, i.e. spyware.

The economies of China and the EU are already bigger than the US, and India is growing. Countries may have to make the choice, the US (4% of the worlds population) or the rest of the world (96%).
[doublepost=1456182122][/doublepost]

When have they stated that? They've stated that they've given data that they possess in instances they were served with lawful requests and they had said data. And even now, even if Apple complies, they're not bypassing the encryption - they simply can't. What they would be doing is making it easier for the FBI to brute force the phone's passcode (by disabling the feature that wipes data after 10 incorrect password attempts, and allowing the FBI to enter passcodes electronically rather than with the touchscreen).

What is a surprise to me is that they apparently can force an update to a phone without the passcode.

Why ?,
how do you think they do firmware installs/updates during assembly ?
[doublepost=1456182539][/doublepost]

Its been argued to me that if you have nothing to hide and you are not partaking in illegal activities what is the issue with Apple hacking the phone.

Is the problem, that they (apple) might loose control of such code and it find its way to those with illegal purposes?

You Americans, so US centric.
The problem is if the FBI gets it, so does every law enforcement in the world.

Its unlawful to denigrate the royal family in Thailand
Its unlawful to be gay in Russia

Thailand and Russia and China and France and Germany and Turkey etc etc etc etc have ALL had terrorist attacks, all have criminals, murderers, rapists, pedophiles, etc etc etc. There is nothing unique to the USA about this, and if law enforcement can get access in the US, then EVERY country will get access or US equipment/corporations cop fines, banned from trading etc etc.

To say these countries are not entitled means saying their lives have less value, that crimes against children have less value, is that REALLY how the US wants to be seen ?
[doublepost=1456182899][/doublepost]

If it had been anything higher than a 5c they could've just used the dead terrorists finger to open it up.

http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2014/10...be-required-to-unlock-phone-with-fingerprint/

https://www.macrumors.com/2014/10/31/fingerprints-not-protected-by-fifth-amendment/

It requires that finger ID has been set up.
It requires you know which finger/thumb
And I believe it requires the finger to be attached to a living being

 

[steve333]

And that's not the problem. The FBI has the phone, they can do whatever they want with it. They can have the NSA help them instead of going to court to force Apple to make a custom firmware.
Oh, the guy, the "terrorist" owning the phone is already dead. Nobody's hiding.

That could be an issue, however they want to get into the phone to see who the terrorists's contacts may be.
I see the privacy issue but not to be able to investigate terrorists may be a bigger issue.
Hopefully they can find some way to be able to go into a specific phone without endangering everyone's privacy.

 

[Mac 128]

What they would be doing is making it easier for the FBI to brute force the phone's passcode (by disabling the feature that wipes data after 10 incorrect password attempts, and allowing the FBI to enter passcodes electronically rather than with the touchscreen).

What is a surprise to me is that they apparently can force an update to a phone without the passcode.

Exactly ... that is a backdoor. If Apple can rewrite their own code to gain access in this manner to a phone that was previously locked, then why couldn't anyone?

When have they stated that? They've stated that they've given data that they possess in instances they were served with lawful requests and they had said data. And even now, even if Apple complies, they're not bypassing the encryption - they simply can't

Apple admits that creating a "government-ordered backdoor" is technically possible, but says "the technique, once created, could be used over and over again, on any number of devices."

 

[Tech198]

I trust they must keep stuff to themselves, *expect* public info should never be a secret, yet they reckon it is..

I think users are going overboard here is what "private" info actually is... and thus needs a passcode to protect

Software update is not private information...thus why u need not need to protect from downloading it ? Its freely available.

Only use passcode when u have private info, anything else is just a waste of time.... since u'r protecting something that anyone can get anyway. There is no valid point.

 

[iHateMacs]

What is it that people are afraid of.

I do not care if my local police can see everything on my phone and read my emails. Who cares?

I wouldn't want my family knowing or even my neighbours, but the police MI5 etc I am not bothered about.

I am not a terrorist so nothing I say or store is of any interest to them.

 

[jeremiah256]

Apple asked to have the case kept on the down low. The FBI made it public. Now that Apple is smacking them around in public and the media is finding out how the county government messed up (didn't follow their own policy and implement software that would have given them full access to the iPhone no matter what the terrorist did), they are crying uncle.

As secretive as Apple has been I'm surprised they weren't smart enough to resolve this secretly before it turned into a public spectacle.

Now the world is watching a fight that will surely entertain.

Will Apple cave in?

 

[Tech198]

its more than just emails.... What abut credit cards info ? The government could easily sell this info to advertisers... not that they would, but if its in their possession, who's gonna stop them ?

We have policies in place for a reason, so why should it be all just tossed out when it comes to the law ? Privacy is privacy.... regardless who it is and who its too..

 

[jeremiah256]

One reason is the recent OPM breach. The government lost the names, social security numbers, addresses, phone numbers, finger prints, work history, salary, and more, of many that not only currently works for the government or used to work for the government, but anyone who applied for a job to work for the government. So far, 18 million individual records at the low end. Since this data also includes information on your siblings, your parents, your neighbors, and your co-workers, we can play the Kevin Bacon game and figure out that a substantial amount of information on Americans is in other hands. A hacker just released personal information on 20,000 FBI agents a couple of weeks ago.

I don't trust the government to keep my secrets. There is no way they can keep up with current technology and implement what is needed to safeguard my information. They are too big, slow, and they have no real skin in the game. But companies? They have monetary reasons why they want to produce a product that they can advertise is secure. I'm willing to pay Apple prices partially because they are secure. So, when the government, the same government that can't keep their own secrets, proposes something that may jeopardize my security, I am happy that Apple is fighting back.

What is it that people are afraid of.

I do not care if my local police can see everything on my phone and read my emails. Who cares?

I wouldn't want my family knowing or even my neighbours, but the police MI5 etc I am not bothered about.

I am not a terrorist so nothing I say or store is of any interest to them.

 

[Rocketman]

Let's be clear about one thing. This is a controversy the FBI/DoJ itself raised out of thin air by expecting a different approach than ever attempted before.

This is novel, and the FEDGOV knows it.

Dont blame Apple. Blame Obama.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

The county government (iPhone owner) and the FBI reset the password, presumably to keep the co-conspirators out.

And screwed themselves in the process. And THAT is of course Apple's fault... Obviously...

 

[sir1963nz]

What is it that people are afraid of.

I do not care if my local police can see everything on my phone and read my emails. Who cares?

I wouldn't want my family knowing or even my neighbours, but the police MI5 etc I am not bothered about.

I am not a terrorist so nothing I say or store is of any interest to them.

That may currently be true for you.
But what about ethnic minorities who get harassed by police simply for being a minority
How about being gay in Russia
I wonder how Ghandi would have gotten on, or Martin Luther King.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

I most certainly am fully aware of the current and past nefarious deeds the government has spearheaded. Therefore I'm not disagreeing with you. It's one of many reasons I have no trust in them. But I've also lost trust in Apple for several reasons. Supremely hypocritical and greedy they too say one thing and do another.

The issue we're discussing lacks a reasonable and safe resolution. To privacy, that's but a myth of yesteryear. Big Data, the Insurance Industry and others have pilfered our personal data long before now. Smartphones are the FBI's dream device for tracking us. Reminds me of "closing the barn door after the horse is out".

There's just too much to be gained from brokering our personal data. Too many big organizations with the money that it takes to buy our data. Plain and simple.

So we should have people like you give it away?

I'm not ready to have MY crap combed through. Not yet. I'm a nobody. Meaningless. Why the government would burn down the Constitution to somehow 'trap' me is just out of this world ridiculous...

 

[sir1963nz]

The county government (iPhone owner) and the FBI reset the password, presumably to keep the co-conspirators out.

I doubt that. It would have been reset to deliberately set up a situation where they believed they could get the courts to issue a warrant and set a precedent.

If they win, there are hundreds of phones just waiting to be unlocked

 

[Ed217]

Apple will likely press the system for a final ruling from SCOTUS. That will likely take some time. What they want is a final ruling that does not force them to perform such custom work and actions for “backdoor” processing. If they lose that point, there are other factors they will likely want resolved in any unfavorable ruling:

1.Is each new case already covered by such a ruling, or does each start from scratch?
2.When required by court orders to perform this work, who pays for it?
3.What is the means testing for when such court orders could be issued?

Without (3) they would be quickly ordered for scads of similar situations from all around the country, and perhaps world. It could range from murder cases all the way down to minor traffic stops where a dispute over iPhone contents develops. Just because the FBI says it’s a one time only thing does not prevent every other law enforcement agency from wanting the same thing.

 

[Nuvi]

Its been argued to me that if you have nothing to hide and you are not partaking in illegal activities what is the issue with Apple hacking the phone.

Is the problem, that they (apple) might loose control of such code and it find its way to those with illegal purposes?

Corporate espionage, anything under NDA, banking info, passwords etc. most people have something to hide. The fact remains, If universal key iOS is created it will be highly wanted item with every single intelligence agency in the world. Then you have your organized crime etc. Even US security services have misused intelligence gathering tools. Nothing good will come out of it if such tool is created.

 

[pika2000]

Hopefully they can find some way to be able to go into a specific phone without endangering everyone's privacy.

They can. Have the NSA do it. This is clearly brought up to set a precedence.

 

[Rocketman]

There are also going to be hearings in the House of Representatives over this. Maybe under this congress we can get a bill affirmatively protecting our rights to privacy and encryption, for the President to refuse to sign.