Apple says some MacBook Pros affected by faulty Nvidia chips

[MagnusVonMagnum]

I have the bought the exact same configuration brand new. I'm on my second logic board due to a bad GPU (replaced in July). But this one has been running with no issues for 3 months with no problems yet.

I'll ask one more time if people think the system changes Apple made awhile back (i.e. increased fan speeds) will make a difference for new MBPs and/or ones with new logic boards or if they're still likely to fail. I just ordered a new old model MBP for $1444 from Amazon on clearance, but I could return it if this is really going to be something that's going to slap me in the face. I mean the warranty coverage is installing more of the same defective boards (and since Apple has a new model MBP, they're not going to likely be getting new 'fixed' boards that won't develop the problem).

 

[nuncupatory]

I'll ask one more time if people think the system changes Apple made awhile back (i.e. increased fan speeds) will make a difference for new MBPs and/or ones with new logic boards or if they're still likely to fail. I just ordered a new old model MBP for $1444 from Amazon on clearance, but I could return it if this is really going to be something that's going to slap me in the face. I mean the warranty coverage is installing more of the same defective boards (and since Apple has a new model MBP, they're not going to likely be getting new 'fixed' boards that won't develop the problem).

I don't think the increased fan speeds solved the problem, as people still had failures after the update. A couple folks have mentioned that they were told they'd be getting 'rev 2' boards, and I remember someone saying he cracked his MBP open after it came back and it had a 'Rev C' sticker on it. So maybe the new logic boards are a permanent fix, though at this point I'm merely cautiously optimistic. I mean, how stupid would Apple have to be to continue using the same defective GPUs after already acknowledging the issue?

On the other hand, it never hurts to have a backup plan:
http://www.girardgibbs.com/MacBookPro.asp

 

[waffl]

Failed/Fine GPU Users?

Hi,
I was wondering - those of you that have had the GPU fail on you, were you making extensive use of the 3D or did it just die? And those of you that seem to be unaffected by it, are you stressing out the GPU much or not?

It would be nice to think that you could use your computer to its full potential without fear of destroying it.

 

[lacereza]

Mine had screwy graphics right out of the box.

 

[Shawnstra]

Hi,
I was wondering - those of you that have had the GPU fail on you, were you making extensive use of the 3D or did it just die? And those of you that seem to be unaffected by it, are you stressing out the GPU much or not?

It would be nice to think that you could use your computer to its full potential without fear of destroying it.

Yeah, as above, just to see, those with failed GPUs, do you use it intensively?

 

[Phrasikleia]

I mean, how stupid would Apple have to be to continue using the same defective GPUs after already acknowledging the issue?

They'll use whatever is available from NVidia.

 

[MoeOz]

I was thinking the same if those failed GPU's were from ppl using it intensevly with games and 3D apps, i had mine with no use of games or 3d stuff for a whole year (MBP SR) it died one day out of warranty with no reason but the latest security update just after the restart (no screen) i didnt even had those glitches ppl had or any kinda of sign before but i guess its the same fate of all machines using that GPU now

 

[madmaxmedia]

Is there any way to test the GPU to determine how it's holding up?

I've had intermittent graphical problems playing games but only rarely play games on the MBP and would not be able to replicate this problem in store if I booked a Genius Bar appointment.

The MBP is from June 2007 and had a Logic Board replacement within a month as the fans were running full blast the whole time and the Unit would not sleep correctly. This did fix those problems.

I'm assuming if I book an appointment, take it in (this is in Sydney, Australia) that they'll take a look and tell me "Well it all looks fine to me sport"

I would take a photo the next time it happens.

 

[madmaxmedia]

If every single MBP is a potential ticking time bomb, then I think the extended warranty should be longer than 1 year.

I understand that replacing logic boards in all MBP's could be prohibitively expensive if only a relatively small % are going to ultimately fail. But then give owners the peace of mind knowing that they are covered if it does eventually fail. And if Apple has determined that 1 extra year is actually more than enough to cover the GPU's that will fail, giving an extra 2 years on top of that will only give them free positive PR at little actual cost.

Then you won't have people worried about "Wow, I better stress test my GPU just to make sure it is okay, otherwise I might be screwed a year from now."

 

[bushbaby]

Max, you are being easy on Apple. I think with a known problem (read below), they should have issued a recall. And they should not be continuing to sell these machines (on the refurb and clearance site) without some warning.

They should guarantee these for the life of the machine. Otherwise, anyone stuck with one has little resale value after two years.

"Despite Nvidia's claim that its graphics chip failures were limited to a certain number of chips manufactured for a certain number of notebooks, the Inquirer in July charged the company with masking the severity of the problem, alleging that "all the G84 and G86 parts are bad. Period. No exceptions."

"All of them, mobile and desktop, use the exact same ASIC, so expect them to go south in inordinate numbers as well," the publication said."

 

[Phrasikleia]

If every single MBP is a potential ticking time bomb, then I think the extended warranty should be longer than 1 year.

I understand that replacing logic boards in all MBP's could be prohibitively expensive if only a relatively small % are going to ultimately fail. But then give owners the peace of mind knowing that they are covered if it does eventually fail. And if Apple has determined that 1 extra year is actually more than enough to cover the GPU's that will fail, giving an extra 2 years on top of that will only give them free positive PR at little actual cost.

Then you won't have people worried about "Wow, I better stress test my GPU just to make sure it is okay, otherwise I might be screwed a year from now."

Now wouldn't it be nice if Apple increased warranties with the aim of minimizing worry among their customers! These are business decisions. The reason they extended the warranty by a single year is twofold: it allows them to say they addressed the problem and yet limits their liability. They know that a lot of these affected machines are likely to make it just past that 2-year period and will therefore be out of their hair and off their books.

 

[madmaxmedia]

Max, you are being easy on Apple. I think with a known problem (read below), they should have issued a recall. And they should not be continuing to sell these machines (on the refurb and clearance site) without some warning.

They should guarantee these for the life of the machine. Otherwise, anyone stuck with one has little resale value after two years.

"Despite Nvidia's claim that its graphics chip failures were limited to a certain number of chips manufactured for a certain number of notebooks, the Inquirer in July charged the company with masking the severity of the problem, alleging that "all the G84 and G86 parts are bad. Period. No exceptions."

"All of them, mobile and desktop, use the exact same ASIC, so expect them to go south in inordinate numbers as well," the publication said."

A total recall would definitely be preferable. But at the very least, a really long extended warranty period would give users almost the same peace of mind, and cost Apple less dough. (I'm assuming the failure rate is close to say 10 or 20% than 60 or 60%- I actually have no idea what the current and future anticipated failure rate is.

Now wouldn't it be nice if Apple increased warranties with the aim of minimizing worry among their customers! These are business decisions. The reason they extended the warranty by a single year is twofold: it allows them to say they addressed the problem and yet limits their liability. They know that a lot of these affected machines are likely to make it just past that 2-year period and will therefore be out of their hair and off their books.

They have given other units much longer warranty periods, so there is a precedent for Apple. Depending on how things go over the next couple of years, it's possible they could extend the warranty longer.

I understand it is a business decision, but if you don't sufficiently support your products then you are going to lose in the long run. If a lot of units crap our after 2 years and are not covered, Apple is going to get continued bad press over it.

I wonder how other companies are handling this?

 

[Phrasikleia]

A total recall would definitely be preferable. But at the very least, a really long extended warranty period would give users almost the same peace of mind, and cost Apple less dough. (I'm assuming the failure rate is close to say 10 or 20% than 60 or 60%- I actually have no idea what the current and future anticipated failure rate is.

100%, according to the Inquirer: "The flaw is a downright idiotic choice of multiple materials coupled with poor chip design and inadequate testing. It is a case of errors compounding errors. They are all defective."

So: a "really long extended warranty period" would cost Apple a fortune, not "less dough".

They have given other units much longer warranty periods, so there is a precedent for Apple. Depending on how things go over the next couple of years, it's possible they could extend the warranty longer.

It's highly unlikely that they will extend the warranty to match or exceed what AppleCare covers (i.e. three years).

I understand it is a business decision, but if you don't sufficiently support your products then you are going to lose in the long run. If a lot of units crap our after 2 years and are not covered, Apple is going to get continued bad press over it.

I think they would rather cross that bridge when they come to it than commit to the financial losses right away.

 

[madmaxmedia]

100%, according to the Inquirer: "The flaw is a downright idiotic choice of multiple materials coupled with poor chip design and inadequate testing. It is a case of errors compounding errors. They are all defective."

I guess I am wondering- does that mean absolutely all units WILL fail in the short to mid-term future? Or does it mean that all units have this poor chip design and materials, such that a significantly-higher-than-average percentage of these units will fail?

I'm not trying to defend or absolve Apple, just trying to get a better understanding of the actual defect.

If it is literally such that all these Nvidia chips are ticking time bombs, then the other poster who mentioned purposefully stressing the GPU by running benchmark apps continuously actually makes sense. If your GPU is going to fail, then you would rather it fail while it is still in the warranty period.

 

[Phrasikleia]

I guess I am wondering- does that mean absolutely all units WILL fail in the short to mid-term future? Or does it mean that all units have this poor chip design and materials, such that a significantly-higher-than-average percentage of these units will fail?

That is the $64 million question.

I'm trying to figure out what to do with my 8-month-old ticking time bomb.

 

[ATimson]

I guess I am wondering- does that mean absolutely all units WILL fail in the short to mid-term future? Or does it mean that all units have this poor chip design and materials, such that a significantly-higher-than-average percentage of these units will fail?

The latter. It's going to depend on usage, though, and not an actual difference in the quality of the parts.

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

Max, you are being easy on Apple. I think with a known problem (read below), they should have issued a recall. And they should not be continuing to sell these machines (on the refurb and clearance site) without some warning.

They should guarantee these for the life of the machine. Otherwise, anyone stuck with one has little resale value after two years.

"Despite Nvidia's claim that its graphics chip failures were limited to a certain number of chips manufactured for a certain number of notebooks, the Inquirer in July charged the company with masking the severity of the problem, alleging that "all the G84 and G86 parts are bad. Period. No exceptions."

"All of them, mobile and desktop, use the exact same ASIC, so expect them to go south in inordinate numbers as well," the publication said."

I thought it was the solder they used that was failing not any of the actual chips used and that heat was what was causing the solder to fail (i.e. that solder wasn't rated for those heat levels). So it's not a question of the chips used, but a question of the solder used on the board.

 

[bkeezy]

Bkeezy, that is what apple offered to do for me as well. After reading about the issue of the 8600 card, I decided I did not want to spend $2000 on a refurbed machine that has known issues. It's crazy, esp in this economy.

see what you did there bush, found the edit button... smart move

 

[benjs]

I just had a conversation with an AppleCare representative, regarding the 8600M GT cards in the current 17" MacBook Pros. He described the 8600M GT card issues as "similar to the spinach incident in the US". He said that for whatever reason, there was an issue with the 8600M GT cards from some certain batches, and that nVidia have fixed whatever manufacturing issues were present. He also mentioned that the current 17" MacBook Pros have no 8600M GT cards from those malfunctioning batches.
That said, I have had two other conversations with different AppleCare reps over the last three days, one of whom tried to convince me that because on their system they see the word "G84" next to the nVidia graphics card - it is, in fact different. The other one stated that this issue only affects 15" models.
So, my question to you all - what's the risk factor like in purchasing a new 17" model, do you think?

 

[spiff303]

what's the risk factor like in purchasing a new 17" model, do you think?

ditto - the only thing stopping me from purchasing a current matte 17" is fear of a faulty GPU. not sure i can stomach the ultra-high-gloss-display on the future 17s (when they finally come out).

 

[Phrasikleia]

I just had a conversation with an AppleCare representative, regarding the 8600M GT cards in the current 17" MacBook Pros. He described the 8600M GT card issues as "similar to the spinach incident in the US". He said that for whatever reason, there was an issue with the 8600M GT cards from some certain batches, and that nVidia have fixed whatever manufacturing issues were present. He also mentioned that the current 17" MacBook Pros have no 8600M GT cards from those malfunctioning batches.
That said, I have had two other conversations with different AppleCare reps over the last three days, one of whom tried to convince me that because on their system they see the word "G84" next to the nVidia graphics card - it is, in fact different. The other one stated that this issue only affects 15" models.
So, my question to you all - what's the risk factor like in purchasing a new 17" model, do you think?

That line sounds a lot like the official NVidia line, which is exactly what the Inquirer is trying to debunk. They did some research that revealed that Nvidia hadn't changed anything at all for some particular batch or other and are claiming that all 8600M GT cards are bad. But then Apple has these "Rev. 2" 8600M GT cards that they claim are post-problem and perfectly fine.

I suppose you could give Apple the benefit of the doubt, but will you feel nervous about your purchase afterwards?

 

[duk]

Rev 2 Boards

I know this has been covered but I thought I would add my 2 cents to the discussion.
I was at the genius bar today, they didn't know anything about rev 2 boards.
So I asked them to check there system, much to his amazement there was the part recently updated in there system, a new "rev 2" board (they showed me the screen) and it turned out in todays in store shipment they sent him one. So they do exist, now that apple has mentioned this problem they have no intention of replacing bad with bad, rest assured there is a new part for replacement. They even offered to put it in my machine even though it hasn't exhibited any problems. I elected to wait.

 

[Phrasikleia]

They even offered to put it in my machine even though it hasn't exhibited any problems. I elected to wait.

Oh really? They did offer to replace it? Why wait?? Why not just do it? If that's an option, I'm doing it.

 

[Macloven]

Any way to know if we have the rev. 2 motherboard without taking the machine apart? My MB was replaced a few weeks ago due to faulty ram slot and wondering if I got the "new" version?

thanks,

Mark

 

[colonelsanders]

The Genius Bar does have a test. Mine Passed so they tell me its software related.

This is the first I've heard of this "test". What's supposed to happen if it fails the test?

Yes, the Genius Bar does have a test. See below.

My experience on the 14th makes it clear that not all 8600M's are affected. (At least that's what Apple thinks)

After my latest graphics issue I took a picture with my cell and decided to do something about it. I brought my MBP 2.2 SR 8600M 128 into the local Apple Store (SLC, UT) to have my SuperDrive replaced and my graphics card looked at.

The Genius Bar has a new 8600M diognostic test that runs off of an external HD. The software specifically looks for the 8600 defect. After freezing on the first test and showing crazy color patterns, they tried it again and it passed. If it had failed then they would have replaced the logic board.

They told me that my graphics issue must be software related and has been a known issue with Nvidia's drivers. He wouldn't say how long it's been a known issue, only that they are still waiting for a fix.

I've had my MBP for a year and 2 months and experienced this for the first time only 2 months after purchased. Yes my unit was a refurb and has Apple Care.

I personally don't believe this is just a software issue. It's happened under 10.4.11 10.5.1 10.5.2 10.5.4 10.5.5. All random and not reproducible. In all i've had this happen 12-15 times.

This is the picture I took. The Geniuses sent a copy to Apple HQ along with a profile of my machine.
http://www.curt-sanders.com/MBP_SR_2.2_8600_Baslistic_Graphics.jpg

I've posed in apple's forums looking for suggestions and emailed Apple Support last night asking them what they think I should do.

Any suggestions?