I am sure that I will get my head handed to me and I certainly don't want to upset anyone, and Nvidia certainly produced the chip, but it was placed in an Apple computer. I recently bought a snowmobile that has a faulty part and there has been a recall on this snowmobile to fix it. It wouldn't matter who was responsible for the faulty part, a recall by the company marketing the snowmobile issued the recall. Now I am not comparing the possible safety issue or bodily harm that one could suffer from using the snowmobile in its current condition to the faulty chip in my macbook pro, but I do agree with PDE and the idea that I didn't set out to purchase the Nvidia, I set out to buy a reliable, stable macbook pro with the expectation that it would work without major and costly repairs for at least three years. And yes, I do understand that Applecare provides coverage for three years, but if Nvidia and Apple both know for sure that the GPU is faulty, then recall and repair the product. It is way too easy nowadays to point the finger at everyone else, but Apple would stand a lot better chance of going after Nvidia than I would. And when I purchase their product, I expect them to stand behind the whole product. If I use the logic that it is Nvidia's fault because they made the part, just what would Apple be responsible for, the case? I mean it is not like they make the displays, the hard drives, etc. It becomes a package deal that is being sold by Apple and IMO they have to be a least partially accountable. BTW, I purchased two of these machines and I honestly love mine, but it does take some of the shine off when you are wondering when it will die.
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Apple says some MacBook Pros affected by faulty Nvidia chips
- Thread starter HiFiGuy528
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I am sure that I will get my head handed to me and I certainly don't want to upset anyone, and Nvidia certainly produced the chip, but it was placed in an Apple computer. I recently bought a snowmobile that has a faulty part and there has been a recall on this snowmobile to fix it. It wouldn't matter who was responsible for the faulty part, a recall by the company marketing the snowmobile issued the recall. Now I am not comparing the possible safety issue or bodily harm that one could suffer from using the snowmobile in its current condition to the faulty chip in my macbook pro, but I do agree with PDE and the idea that I didn't set out to purchase the Nvidia, I set out to buy a reliable, stable macbook pro with the expectation that it would work without major and costly repairs for at least three years. And yes, I do understand that Applecare provides coverage for three years, but if Nvidia and Apple both know for sure that the GPU is faulty, then recall and repair the product. It is way too easy nowadays to point the finger at everyone else, but Apple would stand a lot better chance of going after Nvidia than I would. And when I purchase their product, I expect them to stand behind the whole product. If I use the logic that it is Nvidia's fault because they made the part, just what would Apple be responsible for, the case? I mean it is not like they make the displays, the hard drives, etc. It becomes a package deal that is being sold by Apple and IMO they have to be a least partially accountable. BTW, I purchased two of these machines and I honestly love mine, but it does take some of the shine off when you are wondering when it will die.
Can we *try* to be reasonable here? Now IF Apple was dodging responsibility here you'd actually have a very good point. The fact is Apple offers the best customer service bar none and just remember there's legal limitations as to what they can and can't do in this situation. They have a business relationship with nVidia and have to be careful how this is dealt with. Apple has acknowledged the issue and has taken steps to protect their customers. We don't know what transpired between Apple & nVidia to find a solution to this problem. For all we know Apple has forced nVidia to cover the cost of all related replacements. Apple would wouldn't hide from this and actually expect you to take it up w/ nVidia. They'll always look after their customers directly & reasonably and as we've seen on these boards, reason is not always something their customers have in abundance.
Apple has addressed the issue, but perhaps not as completely as they could.
They've extended the warranty by one year. Which is okay, unless reports are correct that basically every nVidia 8600 is more or less a ticking time bomb that will eventually go off.
They can't extend the warranty forever. But other companies have gone to 2 years.
They've extended the warranty by one year. Which is okay, unless reports are correct that basically every nVidia 8600 is more or less a ticking time bomb that will eventually go off.
They can't extend the warranty forever. But other companies have gone to 2 years.
I'm having the same problem with a brand new MBP with the 2.8GHz chip. The graphics only go off when using the 9600M GT processor, the 9400M is okay. I really hope this is not a continuation of the same failure.
I've had TWO 8600 failures in my 17"... first one lasted just over a year, the second one lasted just over 4 months. I should have the 3rd replacement back tomorrow. Supposedly this time it should be fixed. We will see.
What Apple should do
Hi,
As an Apple customer, here's what I think would be the "ethical" and responsible thing for Apple to do.
When someone buys an Apple "Pro" system, they are lead to understand that they are buying a highly premium product, designed for professionals to use. I certainly expect the product to serve me faithfully for at LEAST 3 years, and would feel disappointed if the unit wasn't still in good working order after 5 years.
My PowerBook G4 12" unit is 4 years old and still working well, so that would be a good example where my expectations were met. And why shouldn't they be met - it cost a lot of money.
Like many others, my new Macbook Pro is broken after 15 months.
It seems pretty clear that there is going to be a bloodbath of failures - both for MBPs and for other manufacturers units with this chip. I used my MBP for 12+ hours a day every day (its a "Pro" tool, after all), so maybe others' will last longer than mine if all they do is play music in iTunes.
So - I believe that Apple should offer like so:
Free repairs until the machine is three years old, OR, at the customers' option, a trade in on a new machine like so:
After one year, 60% of the original purchase price
After two years, 45% of the original purchase price
After three years, 30% of the original purchase price
After four year, 15% of the original purchase price.
In my case if I took up this option of a 60% trade-in, I'd still have to pay in about $1200 to get a new-generation MBP. I'd probably have to downgrade to a standard Macbook.
That's mainly because America's subprime crisis has bizzarely resulted in South Africa's currency value _dropping_
by 30% vs the US$. Uhh - we're the people who _didn't_ lend money to people who couldn't afford to pay it back
But still, it would at least feel like a little less of a waste of money than sinking another US$1700 into my existing laptop to buy another 15 months of use. Which is the current state of play until the SA importer agrees to carry the cost of this repair and the ones to come.
(I'm going by my iBook G3 800MHz experience - where 4 new mainboards were needed before it stopped breaking).
Unfortunately, I don't think I want the new mirror-MacBook Pro, its just TOO overdesigned for me.
Steve
Hi,
As an Apple customer, here's what I think would be the "ethical" and responsible thing for Apple to do.
When someone buys an Apple "Pro" system, they are lead to understand that they are buying a highly premium product, designed for professionals to use. I certainly expect the product to serve me faithfully for at LEAST 3 years, and would feel disappointed if the unit wasn't still in good working order after 5 years.
My PowerBook G4 12" unit is 4 years old and still working well, so that would be a good example where my expectations were met. And why shouldn't they be met - it cost a lot of money.
Like many others, my new Macbook Pro is broken after 15 months.
It seems pretty clear that there is going to be a bloodbath of failures - both for MBPs and for other manufacturers units with this chip. I used my MBP for 12+ hours a day every day (its a "Pro" tool, after all), so maybe others' will last longer than mine if all they do is play music in iTunes.
So - I believe that Apple should offer like so:
Free repairs until the machine is three years old, OR, at the customers' option, a trade in on a new machine like so:
After one year, 60% of the original purchase price
After two years, 45% of the original purchase price
After three years, 30% of the original purchase price
After four year, 15% of the original purchase price.
In my case if I took up this option of a 60% trade-in, I'd still have to pay in about $1200 to get a new-generation MBP. I'd probably have to downgrade to a standard Macbook.
That's mainly because America's subprime crisis has bizzarely resulted in South Africa's currency value _dropping_
by 30% vs the US$. Uhh - we're the people who _didn't_ lend money to people who couldn't afford to pay it back But still, it would at least feel like a little less of a waste of money than sinking another US$1700 into my existing laptop to buy another 15 months of use. Which is the current state of play until the SA importer agrees to carry the cost of this repair and the ones to come.
(I'm going by my iBook G3 800MHz experience - where 4 new mainboards were needed before it stopped breaking).
Unfortunately, I don't think I want the new mirror-MacBook Pro, its just TOO overdesigned for me.
Steve
No offense taken, but it's a little late to go with another brand when I already have a MBP. It's kind of beside the point at this stage. People buy Apple laptops for many reasons, one of which is reliability and quality. I'm not so naive as to think that Apple products are perfect, but they should certainly last three years without major issues and if there is a built-in defect Apple should cover it for at least three years. For example, they extended coverage for seven years on the powerbook 190/5300 series for all sorts of defects. The only reason they are limiting the coverage to one extra year is that they MUST know something we don't know. I suspect they know that most GPUs are likely to fail and they are trying to minimize damage. I also suspect, though I have no evidence except for Apple's refusal to issue a clear statement, that they are also replacing the faulty boards with new ones that have the same defect. In other words, they seem to be trying to buy time with this one, hoping that the replaced boards will last at least a year until the extension runs out. I'd love to be PROVEN wrong.
I may be too cynical here, but if Apple truly believed that not all GPUs are affected and that the new replacement boards are defect-free, wouldn't they feel comfortable extending the warranty for the GPU for at least three years? They're being evasive for a reason! I think people should demand more information about the replacement boards Apple are using in their repairs....
Extended Warranty
The real beef I'd have w/ Apple is for all the people who bought AppleCare for this issue specifically. When Apple brought in the extra year for everyone that should have been in addition to the AC purchasers. They're the ones who forked out, alot already knowing about the problem and NONE knowing the warranty would be extended. People who had AC already should have received 4 years for the GPU while people w/o it should have got 2. As it is they are sort of slapping AC purchasers in the face a tad.
The real beef I'd have w/ Apple is for all the people who bought AppleCare for this issue specifically. When Apple brought in the extra year for everyone that should have been in addition to the AC purchasers. They're the ones who forked out, alot already knowing about the problem and NONE knowing the warranty would be extended. People who had AC already should have received 4 years for the GPU while people w/o it should have got 2. As it is they are sort of slapping AC purchasers in the face a tad.
If I were being unreasonable, I would have said a lot worse and I wouldn't have voiced my opinion on this forum. I would have called Apple directly and took the issue up with them. However, I did think that I had the right to voice my opinion on this forum. Owning two of these machines (one was a birthday gift for my husband), I also feel like I have the right to be concerned about the machines longevity.
I also stated that I really love mine! But if memory serves me right, Apple has said a lot of "maybes" in their acknowledgment of this problem. It is wonderful that they agreed to fix the gpu if it fails during the first two years, even though some are arguing that they are simply replacing it with the same faulty chip, but I truly don't think that it is unreasonable to expect a computer that I "baby" to death to work for three years without having to pay a premium to fix it for a known default. If that repair is say $1,200 then that is a huge chunk of the original cost of the computer and I don't think that you can convince me that Apple doesn't own at least some of the responsibility. If they didn't believe they did, they never would have offered to fix the problem for an extra year.
Also just because I make an observation doesn't make me unreasonable or an Apple hater. I will continue to buy more Apple products, but I don't have to be happy that I presently purchased two computers that certainly have the potential to quit working before their time. And one more thing, I would never sell them to some unsuspecting buyer and dump the problem in their lap. I will continue to use it until it dies, I just wish it could be a natural death.
Apologies if this has been answered already, but can anyone clear up exactly what the issue actually is/was and whether or not it was fixable by a software update?
My impression was that the issue was related to soldering / the material used to bed the chip, and that this wasn't dissipating heat as well as it should, resulting in problems?
However, my situation is that I had the usual symptoms - garbled text, white flashing squares in ITMS / Flash video / mousing over iPhoto events etc.
But 10.5.5 seemed to fix it.
I had by this point spoken to a genius in London, who advised that 10.5.5 had not officially fixed it, and I should get the logic board replaced.
I took it in to the Birmingham store, and they ran a test for the nVidia issues, which the machine passed. The Genius couldn't however satisfactorily explain to me A. what the original issue actually was, B. what 10.5.5 had done to fix it.
If it isn't a software issue, then I don't uinderstand how the machine exhibited symptoms, but now seems to have apparently had a hardware issue fixed by a software update?
Anyway, they've just replaced the logic board, and the LCD panel, but the new LCD panel needs replacing after precisely one day - it has that 1px vertical line thing happening.
I'm trying to persuade them to simply swap the machine, mainly because the whole nVidia thing hasn't really been explained to my satisfaction yet.
My impression was that the issue was related to soldering / the material used to bed the chip, and that this wasn't dissipating heat as well as it should, resulting in problems?
However, my situation is that I had the usual symptoms - garbled text, white flashing squares in ITMS / Flash video / mousing over iPhoto events etc.
But 10.5.5 seemed to fix it.
I had by this point spoken to a genius in London, who advised that 10.5.5 had not officially fixed it, and I should get the logic board replaced.
I took it in to the Birmingham store, and they ran a test for the nVidia issues, which the machine passed. The Genius couldn't however satisfactorily explain to me A. what the original issue actually was, B. what 10.5.5 had done to fix it.
If it isn't a software issue, then I don't uinderstand how the machine exhibited symptoms, but now seems to have apparently had a hardware issue fixed by a software update?
Anyway, they've just replaced the logic board, and the LCD panel, but the new LCD panel needs replacing after precisely one day - it has that 1px vertical line thing happening.
I'm trying to persuade them to simply swap the machine, mainly because the whole nVidia thing hasn't really been explained to my satisfaction yet.
Its a hardware failure (soldier used can't handle the heat as it were) and 10.5.5 'fixing' yours seems to be nothing more than a fluke and was most likely a temporary 'fix'
This is the annoying thing - it did have the symptons, but then didn't, and so passed whatever test they have for it.
But as you say, clearly if its a hardware issue, then the issue is still likely to be lurking there somewhere.
Given that, I can't now have confidence in any new board that they believe to have passed this test.
Added to the fact that they've now replaced the logic board, and the LCD panel, and now need to replace the LCD panel again immediately, and I'm not happy with the general shonkiness of the uneven lid, am I being unreasonable to push for a replacement machine rather than further repair?
Are you asking for a unibody replacement machine, or simply a replacement identical to your current MBP? You can ask for anything you want, but I wouldn't expect a unibody MBP to come your way.
If they need to replace the LCD anyway, that may take care of the dodgy lid. But I would definitely point that out to them, especially if the lid was fine before.
Besides that, they've basically replaced the entire computer already (at least all the important parts), so not sure getting a replacement would do much. It will still have the faulty Nvidia GPU in any case.
If they need to replace the LCD anyway, that may take care of the dodgy lid. But I would definitely point that out to them, especially if the lid was fine before.
Besides that, they've basically replaced the entire computer already (at least all the important parts), so not sure getting a replacement would do much. It will still have the faulty Nvidia GPU in any case.
they haven't shown any signs like they might replace the machine, and i'll eat my hat if they do, but that's partly the point - given what's happened so far...
...i'd be happy with a machine that worked as advertised, and that i could have some long term confidence in...
...if its a new unibody machine that achieves that then so be it...
Was the dodgy lid a result of the first servicing?
If so, I would definitely bring that up. They will end replacing the entire display assembly anyway if the LCD is bad, so that should fix that problem.
I do sympathize with your problem since I have a Penryn MBP myself, unfortunately Apple is not going to replace an entire generation of MBP's for us. I'm not expecting them to, but I do wish they would make the extended warranty period 2 years instead of one (I believe that's what Dell ended up doing with affected computers. If not Dell then it was HP.)
If so, I would definitely bring that up. They will end replacing the entire display assembly anyway if the LCD is bad, so that should fix that problem.
I do sympathize with your problem since I have a Penryn MBP myself, unfortunately Apple is not going to replace an entire generation of MBP's for us.
I'm not expecting them to, but I do wish they would make the extended warranty period 2 years instead of one (I believe that's what Dell ended up doing with affected computers. If not Dell then it was HP.)Was the dodgy lid a result of the first servicing?
If so, I would definitely bring that up. They will end replacing the entire display assembly anyway if the LCD is bad, so that should fix that problem.
I do sympathize with your problem since I have a Penryn MBP myself, unfortunately Apple is not going to replace an entire generation of MBP's for us.
The original lid was like that too, and I hoped if they were putting a new LCD on, they'd make a better job of it. Of course its not that big a deal really,and I wouldn't dream of mentioning it if it wasn't for all the other stuff.
I guess it just irks that they say they're all like that because of the latch in the middle - which is BS. They never looked like that in any Apple literature.
I know they're not going to replace then all voluntarily, but I do feel with them having replaced the logic board and LCD panel, then on a case by case basis I figure its worth pushing for.
And I'm not as mad as I sound, or anything like it, but I am genuinely left with uncertainty - they say the original board passed their nVidia test, yet the machine did have symptoms. So I don't think its unreasonable to expect them to be able to explain what they think the problem was, and what caused it to go away,and how a hardware issue was mysteriously fixed by software.
I don't think they can explain that, and if they can't explain that, then that calls into question the legitimacy or certainty of their test.
In which case as a customer I'm not reassured as much as I should be.
Make any sense?
And like I say, I don't imagine for a second they will replace it, but sometimes in life you've gotta make your case I think.
Oh, I definitely see your side of it, especially after repeated servicing and some doubts on their diagnosis of your problems.
If somehow your MBP is still problematic after your next servicing, I think then you are in that gray area where you could legitimately demand a brand new unit (whatever the revision), due to the time you've lost.
Anyway, let us know what happens- good luck!
If somehow your MBP is still problematic after your next servicing, I think then you are in that gray area where you could legitimately demand a brand new unit (whatever the revision), due to the time you've lost.
Anyway, let us know what happens- good luck!
Will do - the tech I spoke to today is ordering the second LCD panel, and said he couldn't authorise a swap, but I could speak with a manager when I'm in the store - so either way it'll get sorted.
A. You were right, the original issue was something with the solder not behaving well with too much heat.
B. 10.5.5 ramped up fan speeds so that the GPU doesn't get as hot, but did not fix the "Nvidia Issue"
Aside from that, I'm not sure why your computer didn't display symptoms after the update, unless it actually was a software issue that you were having, not the Nvidia solder issue.
All the 8600 cards have the bad solder (AFAIK), and aparently they are replacing the logic boards with ones that no longer have the bad solder, so you should be good, other than your LCD problems, which are unrelated to the Nvidia issue.
Well you're certainly not the only person being unreasonable in this matter but here's where you are being unreasonable. First off, your machines are fine and even though lots have had problems there's no evidence that *all* of them do. The solder is known to have a higher failure rate than other materials but that doesn't mean its guaranteed to fail (despite what The Inquirer would have us believe). Secondly and more importantly; since when has Apple ever pointed the finger or had customers go deal with 3rd party providers of their components? Thats ridiculous at best. Thirdly, there's NO evidence that Apple is replacing faulty GPUs with more faulty GPUs. That is simply rumors going around message boards.
Enjoy your computers. Whats the point in getting upset for what 'might' happen? You've got a safety net of an addition year, hopefully you don't even need to use it.
Incorrect. You're making the assumption that *all* the graphic issues were solder related. I've seen alot of times that there was ANY graphics glitch w/ an 8600 in a machine people would come on here and declare their machines were failing and posters would reply & reinforce this. There were several issues that were not solder related and in fact DID require a software fix. I believe the striping issue was one of them. The update did in fact fix alot of graphics issues.
I certainly don't mean to come across as unreasonable, its just that I don't really know, and as long as I don't really know, then there's a gap between the confidence I have a £1600 laptop, and the confidence I should have.
My original symptoms were, as far as I knew, the classic failing nVidia symptoms - the white flashes, garbled text and occasional totally screwy finder.
I don't think its unreasonable to expect Apple to be able to explain to me what they believed was causing those symptoms, if it wasn't a failing GPU.
And if they can't explain that, then I would expect them to be able to explain how a hardware issue was somehow fixed via a software update.
And if they can't explain that, then its my belief that they should fully appreciate my concerns and address them accordingly.
The fact that I'm having ongoing issues with the LCD panel only really makes it all the more frustrating, but its not really about being stroppy and wanting a new machine for the sake of it, I'd just like these concerns to be fully addressed, and if they can be with the current machine, then I'm just as happy.
My original symptoms were, as far as I knew, the classic failing nVidia symptoms - the white flashes, garbled text and occasional totally screwy finder.
I don't think its unreasonable to expect Apple to be able to explain to me what they believed was causing those symptoms, if it wasn't a failing GPU.
And if they can't explain that, then I would expect them to be able to explain how a hardware issue was somehow fixed via a software update.
And if they can't explain that, then its my belief that they should fully appreciate my concerns and address them accordingly.
The fact that I'm having ongoing issues with the LCD panel only really makes it all the more frustrating, but its not really about being stroppy and wanting a new machine for the sake of it, I'd just like these concerns to be fully addressed, and if they can be with the current machine, then I'm just as happy.
Listen up, Apple NEVER said they fixed the nVidia HARDWARE issue with a SOFTWARE update. What they DID do was solve some graphics issues that were present and were software related. Not *all* graphics problems in the 8600 era MBPs were GPU related. Now that said, if your graphics issues weren't solved with the updates then perhaps you are having symptoms of the 8600 failing. Take it in to a Genius and they'll do a diagnostic analysis on your GPU.
Sure - I guess that's all I'm trying to establish really.
Are the symptoms commonly associated with the failing GPU the same as the symptoms fixable via a software update?
At the moment my understanding is :
1. that these symptoms were nVidia related.
2. A genius in London advised that 10.5.5 had not resolved the issue, and so even though my machine appeared fixed, the logic board should still be replaced.
3. A genius in Birmingham ran the test, which the machine passed, but he couldn't really shed any further light, and conceded the test wasn't absolute.
I'm curious.. I've been briskly following this thread... I ordered a brand new 2.8ghz Macbook Pro a few days ago... Would it be safe to say that since Apple has acknowledged this issue, that mine should be clear? Or makes no difference? I'm not worried either way... thats what the warranty is for, and I'm sure they'll be replacing any failing hardware should issues arise, but it'd be kind of nice to know that mine just squeeked by the problematic stage.