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30% is extremely high for hosting a tiny amount of static content in the app store and providing a download. The big thing is this is the only way to get apps. Is that worth 30%?

Spotify pays Apple 0% for all the customers that only use the free version.

Spotify also pays Apple 0% for all the customers who pay Spotify for some other method.

Spotify pays 0% for credit card transactions and nothing for software distribution/hosting.

Spotify gets their 70% even if paid for with a discounted iTunes card (either on sale for 5%-25% off) or even Apple's new system to pay $100 and get a bonus $10, which is basically 9% off the top on each of those dollars.

(Unfortunately, 25% off $100 iTunes cards is rare, but I've picked them up a few times.)
 
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There is little reason why iOS can’t be like the Mac - allow side loading of apps and have an AppStore too for those who want to use it.
That would be a lethal business decision. iOS would quickly become just another malware-prone smartphone full of garbage apps and they would effectively be throwing their reputation in the trash. The Mac is only 6% the size of iOS. They can't be compared equally like that.
 
Spotify pays Apple 0% for all the customers that only use the free version.

Apple charges competitors while its own products are treated differently. That's an anti-trust issue. And that's what this is about, not how much who gets. Anyway, we'll see what the courts decide, no need to discuss stuff we have absolutely zero background info about.
 
Apple’s reaponse is written by lawyers and smells of fear. They know they’re wrong in this and the EU will probably come down on them. It’s happened for lesser offenses in the past.
 
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SPOTIFY>apple music.

better algorithms, UX, voice search...need i go on?

ok.

free hulu...showtime....you get it
This may have been sarcasm. But it is better in almost every way. The only thing that AM has a leg up is if you aren’t like me. And have just Apple stuff throughout the house. You are better off with AM.
 
That would be a lethal business decision. iOS would quickly become just another malware-prone smartphone full of garbage apps

Let's face it: it's already that. Tons of privacy and data mining issues by apps in the store and 95% of the apps on the App Store are complete crap.
 
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Apple is right.

While I don't think Spotify is 100% fair in the way they've outlined some of the issues I don't think Apple is in the right here (except for pointing out Spotify's bad practices with artists but that is not the issue here). Apple really does use its gatekeeper position to its advantage, which is shameful. There's even an article in this very forum about how they rejected the Steam link app because of business conflict issues. That to me seems like anti-competitiveness so I would not be surprised if some of the actions Apple took here were done to protect Apple Music.
 
The rules for AppStore have been set long, long time ago, they have never changed, and Spotify willingly joined Apple platform knowing the rules since day one. Now because the can’t sustain their business properly they whine how badly Apple treats them, 10 years after the rules have been set up that way. If 30% cut is so unacceptable, why did they agree on it at first place and joined AppStore ? Is it fair ? Is life fair ? Grow up, get your things together and start managing your business better. Work hard, make your platform so good, that people won’t join Apple Music.
 
I think both companies have some good points in this argument. I mean if this was any other kind of store (like a supermarket) the owner of that store gets to decide what items they stock on their shelves.

Spotify says Apple takes 30% of the money, they don't allow you to use your own payment system and they compete directly with them by offering Apple Music.

Well guess what, Supermarkets take a cut of the items they sell, they don't allow people to pickup a product off a shelf and run it through a cash register you're operating in the parking lot and they also sell their own-brand versions of your product right alongside yours.

But you don't see people suing do you? - I mean these companies that make physical products understand the store has overhead and it's in itself a business not a charity. They benefit by being in the store so it's a symbiotic relationship.

The only things I agree with Spotify on really are Apple rejecting their app for ridiculous things (if their claims on this are true). And locking down certain API's so you can't say to Siri "play my x Spotify playlist" etc - But as far as I'm concerned the money aspect is fair because it's Apples store and like any store operator they get to decide the cost structure for products placed in there.

Apple could be a little more flexible and Spotify could be a little less greedy with their demands.
 
Uber, as of April 2018 was valued at $72 billion
Spotify as of April 2018 was valued at approx $28 billion.

non competing business (Uber) gets to use all the advantages of the app store for free, pays no commission.

competing business (Spotify) is told it has to pay it's way, has to pay commission.

It does not matter how Apple spin it, they are using unfair business practices specifically against competing businesses where as non competing businesses are treated totally different, all whilst using the same platform.
 
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The rules for AppStore have been set long, long time ago, they have never changed, and Spotify willingly joined Apple platform knowing the rules since day one. Now because the can’t sustain their business properly they whine how badly Apple treats them, 10 years after the rules have been set up that way. If 30% cut is so unacceptable, why did they agree on it at first place and joined AppStore ? Is it fair ? Is life fair ? Grow up, get your things together and start managing your business better. Work hard, make your platform so good, that people won’t join Apple Music.
Or Now that they have to compete with Apple's alternative called Apple Music.
 
So Spotify is the reason we don’t have Siri support with their app, not Apple. Interesting, but frustrating. I can’t even reorder the order of my playlists on the iOS Spotify app, so at this rate, we’ll probably never get Siri support.
 
How would you refute all the claims that spotify made? - https://www.timetoplayfair.com/

I guess now is as good a time to consolidate all my arguments as any.

First and foremost, it helps to understand Spotify's motivations for doing this right now. We know that Spotify hasn't been profitable since like forever, and their growth is now largely confined to countries where Apple doesn't not have a dominant presence in. This means that while they may be able to boast large subscriber numbers on paper, the average revenue per customer is actually pretty low. Not least because Apple has managed to corral the best users and monopolise them for itself (Apple Music subscribers tend to be iPhone users after all).

In short, Spotify is getting desperate. Apple Music holds dominion over the US market and some parts of the EU, very lucrative markets that Spotify is now anxious to reclaim. Hence their decision to go at it now. Their current statement now is also quite ironic considering what their CEO, Daniel Ek, said at an earnings conference just last year, and I quote:

"Spotify executives said there hasn't been meaningful impact from the competition, and that music streaming is not a "winner-take-all" market. The company also said it's not threatened by smart speakers from companies like Amazon, Apple and Google, which also have competing streaming services."

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/02/spotify-earnings-q1-2018.html

What a difference a year makes.

Anyways, on to my arguments.

First, the timeline is absolute nonsense. It's not unreasonable to expect that Apple is continuously reviewing and revising their own App Store rules and guidelines to keep up with the current state of the industry, given that what was crafted in 2008 (when the App Store first launched) would likely not be able to predict or handle every new scenario that came up. Spotify is trying to make it sound like Apple is deliberately changing their rules on a whim to screw Spotify over at every turn.

It makes Spotify seem petty and vindictive, IMO.

Next, it's ludicrous that Spotify is complaining about being locked out of features such as Siri and the Apple Watch. Is Spotify actually arguing that every hardware manufacturer ought to build in support for every available service on the market? Because that's what Spotify is basically suggesting, and you can't expect Apple to be subject to a different set of rules from everyone else "just because it's Apple", if you want to go down that route.

Third, I mentioned earlier why I felt that Spotify shouldn't be viewed through the same lens as Uber or Deliveroo. When you call a car via Uber, only a small part of that interaction happens on your phone. For Spotify, the interaction takes place entirely on your device.

Fourth, if it's choice you want, consumers are perfectly capable of options for phones that aren't iPhones, and choosing music streaming services other than Apple Music. The only monopoly Apple has here is a monopoly on the profits in the smartphone market, and last I checked, it's not a crime to be insanely good at what you are doing (so long as it doesn't break the law).

Last, if Spotify can't pay their 15% cut to Apple and still stay afloat, that's Spotify's problem, not Apple's. They can always do what Netflix did by trying to route users around the App Store. I suspect the argument is less about not wanting to pay Apple their cut (whatever that sum is), and more about wanting total control over their own app, free from Apple's meddling.

I am of mixed feelings on this. I can understand app developers bristling at the (sometimes arbitrary) limitations Apple imposes on their apps, but at the same time, it is precisely because Apple puts in so much thought and effort in curating the App Store that has resulted in users being able to purchase apps easily, cheaply and safely. It's all part of what makes the Apple experience so uniquely Apple. Like it, hate it, it is what it is, and there's always Android if you want out of the walled garden.

In a nutshell, I feel that Spotify's arguments are all over the place. They seem to basically be spraying every single argument they can come up with against the wall in an attempt to see what sticks. After all, it takes way more effort to refute an argument than to make that argument in the first place. Plus, you can't go wrong by appealing to people's (often irrational) dislike of Apple.

Of course, this is all just how I feel, and I expect that the courts and regulatory bodies are going to view it in a far different light than I did. But this is also why I am a teacher commenting on an Apple forum and not a lawyer being paid the big bucks to slug it out in court.
 
I know exactly what this case does highlight. It highlights the difference in attitudes and laws and practices between American corporations and government and the corporations and governments in the EU. Because this is by no means the first time American corporations have been investigated.

Cultural differences at play in different markets.
Fortunately their is no one law or regulation that covers the world on this.
 
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That is a sales and marketing excuse Tim Apple would come up.

A pathetically ****** one at that.
It’s a valid concern if they allow apps to link to external payment options there will be plenty of scammy companies looking to take advantage. Spotify should just move to a login only app then they won’t have to pay Apple anything outside the developer fee. Ironically a majority of people using the Spotify app are on the free tier anyway
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Only download content from apple’s App Store as you can now. Problem solved.

There is little reason why iOS can’t be like the Mac - allow side loading of apps and have an AppStore too for those who want to use it.
If side loading is so important to you buy an android device
 
Of course, this is all just how I feel, and I expect that the courts and regulatory bodies are going to view it in a far different light than I did. But this is also why I am a teacher commenting on an Apple forum and not a lawyer being paid the big bucks to slug it out in court.

It’s also why you’re missing the bigger picture as it’s being mentioned many times already. If your “I own the platform so go away if you don’t like it” argument held true historically, we would be in a very different place right now.
 
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This may have been sarcasm. But it is better in almost every way. The only thing that AM has a leg up is if you aren’t like me. And have just Apple stuff throughout the house. You are better off with AM.

With the exception of the Google Home, we have all Apple products in the house. My wife and I are both Spotify subscribers as well. Obviously we use the Google Home to stream music, but I also connect my iPhone/iPad to my Bluetooth soundbar to stream Spotify as well. Granted listening to AM natively via the ATV is a much better experience, but connecting my iPhone or iPad to my Bluetooth speakers is relatively simple.

I'd still really love to see Apple improve upon their music recommendations/discovery. Spotify owns AM in this space.
 
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Uber, as of April 2018 was valued at $72 billion
Spotify as of April 2018 was valued at approx $28 billion.

non competing business (Uber) gets to use all the advantages of the app store for free, pays no commission.

competing business (Spotify) is told it has to pay it's way, has to pay commission.

It does not matter how Apple spin it, they are using unfair business practices specifically against competing businesses where as non competing businesses are treated totally different, all whilst using the same platform.
Uber provides a physical service not digital goods however using Apple Pay with Uber allows Apple to make something. A majority of Spotify users are on the free tier and there is absolutely nothing that stops them from advertising in audio commercials directly to their costumers.
 
Smaller developers would still use Apple’s in app payments for subscriptions because it’s easier.

Larger companies such as Spotify would opt out and handle subscriptions themselves - I don’t see an issue with that.

The issue is “should the retailer not be allowed to offer their own products on the store on the basis of unfair play”?

That is the Spotify argument.

If it should allowed even if it competes with other products, what would be still considered FairPlay in such situation?

Your solution does not take into consideration that the App Store it’s a shop that sells apps and digital services. Not a directory of apps and services, neither a payment system.
 
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Or Now that they have to compete with Apple's alternative called Apple Music.

Spotify is in the same position as every other developer, because all Apple apps and services competes with some third party AppStore apps. I never heard Fantastical complaining that Apple takes 30% cut and it competes with system calendar. I never heard of Tom Tom complaining when Apple started to compete with them with Apple Maps, you can make millions of examples. The problem that Spotify has is they can’t manage their business very well, when they were one dominating streaming platform all was good, but now they have big issue competition, so they starting unfair campaign against Apple. Apple does what every supermarket and big shop does. When you go to Tesco you will find Tesco branded products on shelf that directly compete with other producers products. Tesco takes cut of selling third party products and compete with producers putting on the same shelves their own, it’s nothing new.
 
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Spotify is in the same position as every other developer, because all Apple apps and services competes with some third party AppStore apps. I never heard Fantastical complaining that Apple takes 30% cut and it competes with system calendar. I never heard
Those are just alternatives to key systems apps.
Apple almost always had a default calendar app or maps app etc.
Spotify was launched 7 years before Apple Music so not the same thing. Spotify and Apple Music are in direct competition for user subscriptions.
 
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