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Addressing final concerns for Spotify, Apple says that despite what the music streaming giant said during the hearing, it does not prohibit developers from informing users about the ability to purchase in-app purchases, such as subscriptions, elsewhere, such as on the web.

Yes they do...? Am I missing something?
h, reading what they said. You cannot advertise in Apple's store, but you can advertise anywhere else you want. You missed the important part. They don't restrict you advertising anywhere outside the store, that they couldn't do, it would be impossible. Kind of like amazon, you can buy products there, or you can get same products at other stores, or direct from manufacturer. you can't advertise that fact on Amazon, but you can advertise it anywhere else you would like
 
This is an incredibly misleading statement when it comes to iPhone. Prior to 2008, Apple did not allow any 3rd party apps of any kind on the iPhone.

A critical point of the iPhone at launch was to allow third-party apps - but they were restricted to being web apps because that is probably what Apple assumed would work considering how terrible the Blackberry and Windows Phone app stores had turned out.

You are correct in noting that once jailbreakers proved an actual dedicated App Store could be a success on iPhone that Apple pivoted and created what we now would consider a "traditional" app store.



Now, to the 30%... That's pretty much the standard across all the app stores. We all know this. Epic and Spotify know this. But who are they to say that 30% is too much? I don't know how much the App Stores cost to run, or how much Apple spends on R&D to improve the SDKs and developer software, or how much the hosting costs or card charges are, but I do know that it's not free.

Apple decided on 30% because they (rightly) presumed that competition would quickly drive down the average price of an app to 99 cents and the minimum credit card transaction fee charged by VISA and MasterCard is 30 cents. So essentially it was intended to ensure Apple at least broke-even on such sales.

Honestly, Apple should use a graduated scale based on transaction price, with lower percentages for higher sales prices since the CC charges fall as the price goes up, but in general I have heard that 15% is about what a developer could reasonably expect to pay if they went with a third-party payment processing service so setting it to a blanket 15% would cost Apple money on the smallest sales, but they'd recover that by the 15% they were making from the "whales" and the more expensive software and streaming subscriptions.
 
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Apple does not allow any other payment system in it's app store, you either have to use Apple's payment system or not use the app store. Therefore for Apple to respond to Spotify's argument that Apple's app store payment system faces no competition with Apple responding with:-


Is very disingenuous because there is only one payment system in the app store and that payment system belongs to Apple so just how exactly is Apple facing 'intense competition' with it's payment system?
Like it or not, from a legal/economic perspective, being able to purchase a Spotify subscription through their own website, is considered competition.

Case in point, the Epic v Apple trial has almost entirely devolved into a debate about transactions with the presumption that the transactions are the product.
There's a lot of contention on a lot of details, but the gist is about transactions.

If that's a logical way of looking at it, is a different question, in part being duked out in court as we speak.
 
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It's better than that - prior to the App store, the members of Apple's board who were members of Google's management (weird to think back to that being a thing, huh?) were also very gung-ho on webapps, until it became apparent that Google could do web apps better than anyone else, and web apps had zero platform lockin for Apple.

i.e. if everyone's making web apps, all Google had to make for Android was a browser engine.
oh so funny, I'm still laughing. If web apps were the thing, they would predominate now. 1) speed of internet and cellular networks was way slower then to render web apps clunky, (is it fast enough now? there are a lot of new web offering for games, etc.) 2) lots of people could create web apps, Google is smart, but they have no lock on brains, 3) apple is a private company making a product that it has designed, you are free to purchase a competing product with a different design. 4) the "lock-in" so what? companies can write software, agree to the privacy and security restrictions in the App Store, market the heck out of the product anywhere else they want, sell subscriptions or vBucks, and then use the App Store app without paying apple anything. 5) lots of products have locking, Smart TVs, iot devices, cars, ....... Not illegal and probably a good thing. Lots of Android malware and spyware comes from outside google play
 
Wow that is harsh. Tile didn’t sell well in the Apple stores. Not much more to say about it.
A Tile is pretty useful until the Tile is out of Bluetooth range, and then it's pretty useless. Right now they're good for things like TV remotes and things like that. Tile needs to release devices that can work in Find My, like Chipolo is doing.
 
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This is an incredibly misleading statement when it comes to iPhone. Prior to 2008, Apple did not allow any 3rd party apps of any kind on the iPhone. It wasn’t like I could get an app like Pandora but I had to go their website to download it. Apps simply weren’t allowed. The only way around that prohibition was to jailbreak the phone, and we all know how Apple reacted to people doing that…

To say that the App Store merely streamlined distribution might be true on the Mac. But it’s an outright lie when talking about the iPhone.
Incorrect and not the purpose for their statement, so your’s is misleading. There was no store for native apps prior to 2008. Apple intended to use HTML-5 as the access point for 3rd parties. The idea was pushed hard for native access and if happen. Ironically when competitors came out with WebOS that used, wait for it...WebApps! It was suddenly the iphone killer. Didn’t work out. Apple’s statement is referring to the Apps on other platforms before their AppStore. The barrier to entry was extremely high requiring not only access to companies like AT&T or Microsoft, but 10s to 100s of thousands of dollars to play, then you only got a 30% cut after all that. Apple leveled the playing field for millions to participate.
 
A reason why I didn't get Tile trackers is the relative inaccuracy of Bluetooth position tracking and the fact you need to use their subscription service for real usefulness.
True. I don't have anything against Tile - they'll be relevant again when they're able to work with Find My, and offer something with UWB.
 
It's better than that - prior to the App store, the members of Apple's board who were members of Google's management (weird to think back to that being a thing, huh?) were also very gung-ho on webapps, until it became apparent that Google could do web apps better than anyone else, and web apps had zero platform lockin for Apple.

i.e. if everyone's making web apps, all Google had to make for Android was a browser engine.
Incorrect. If you read the emails from Apple posted on this site it’s clear that top management did not want to do native 3rd Apps at all. It took quite a bit of convincing because Steve Jobs was completely against it. The developers wanted deeper access to APIs that Apple was using fir their own Apps and webApps were and are still inferior to running natively unless you are running the app itself on a cloud server
 
The reality is that devs who complain about apples practises generally do it because it hinders them in some way but that doesn’t mean they are customer focussed.

most devs would rather not implement security features etc that protect customers. If they could get away with buggy code or not responding to customer queries they would. It’s a pain for devs and costs them time and money.

so why as a consumer and iPhone user should I be on the developers side with all of this? Apples policies have forced devs to be better and raised the standards I expect for me as a consumer.

devs have been forced to care about my privacy, my battery life, my usability etc. Simply because Apple forced them to. Market forces didn’t make them do it because on other platforms like windows and android devs get away with trash all the time!

so I’m really glad there isn’t another App Store to circumvent apples curation. I’m glad they can’t use hidden api’s and all that stuff. Because the reality is I DONT TRUST DEVELOPERS but I trust Apple. Simple.
And that is what this is all about for me as a consumer. Who do I trust.
 
How closely did you read it? They're nearly all Mac developers. Apple made a big deal about the iPhone being based on OSX, that it was a computer in your pocket, with a proper web browser. Doesn't really work to turn around and then say "but it's a phone not a computer, it's special, the paradigms for the Mac don't count for the iPhone" etc.
It does when you realize now that you have all of this data and apps storing personal data and location as well as finger prints etc. The use cases are different and require a different level of security. A rogue app can do a lot more damage on you phone because it is with you, calls and texts can be intercepted, social post and Direct messages monitored in real time if the wrong app is accidentally given too much access.
 
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The reality is that devs who complain about apples practises generally do it because it hinders them in some way but that doesn’t mean they are customer focussed.

most devs would rather not implement security features etc that protect customers. If they could get away with buggy code or not responding to customer queries they would. It’s a pain for devs and costs them time and money.

so why as a consumer and iPhone user should I be on the developers side with all of this? Apples policies have forced devs to be better and raised the standards I expect for me as a consumer.

devs have been forced to care about my privacy, my battery life, my usability etc. Simply because Apple forced them to. Market forces didn’t make them do it because on other platforms like windows and android devs get away with trash all the time!

so I’m really glad there isn’t another App Store to circumvent apples curation. I’m glad they can’t use hidden api’s and all that stuff. Because the reality is I DONT TRUST DEVELOPERS but I trust Apple. Simple.
And that is what this is all about for me as a consumer. Who do I trust.
Agreed. They want the native access to tools, APIs and Apple customers, but don’t want to live up to the expectations we have by being real Apple customers. Those expectations extend to any App available on our devices because we shouldn’t have to try to figure out who the good guys are. That is why we buy Apple, that is a part of their service to us.
 
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If  loses all its trials and loses its App Store monopoly, it won't make a difference to the future of the company. They'll still be a trillion dollar company
 
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Well they’re not lying. When sku numbers only lessen by several items with no need to get more in stock over a year in an unnamed store, they didn’t exactly sell like hot cakes.
 
True. I don't have anything against Tile - they'll be relevant again when they're able to work with Find My, and offer something with UWB.
yah, less whining - more doing! Hey that could be a T-shirt slogan (probably is)
 
Like it or not, from a legal/economic perspective, being able to purchase a Spotify subscription through their own website, is considered competition.
You would make a good Apple lawyer because what you have replied with has absolutly nothing to do with the argument Spotify is making about 'competition'. Spotify wanted to use it's own pay system,it asked Apple for permission, Apple said no, Spotify then asked if they can link to their website pay system from within the app, again Apple said no, both times quoting sections of the terms and conditions of the app store.

Therefore, Apple is forcing Spotify customers away from the iOS app to use a desktop or laptop computer to pay for subscriptions and other purchases. So just how exactly is this, in Apples own words 'intense competition'?.
 
You would make a good Apple lawyer because what you have replied with has absolutly nothing to do with the argument Spotify is making about 'competition'. Spotify wanted to use it's own pay system,it asked Apple for permission, Apple said no, Spotify then asked if they can link to their website pay system from within the app, again Apple said no, both times quoting sections of the terms and conditions of the app store.

Therefore, Apple is forcing Spotify customers away from the iOS app to use a desktop or laptop computer to pay for subscriptions and other purchases. So just how exactly is this, in Apples own words 'intense competition'?.
ummm, you do get the point where almost all of Spotify's customers have a subscription purchased outside of the App Store? Only a tiny fraction prefer to purchase inside. so that pretty well qualifies, and does not seem to be "forcing at all" because customers are choosing that. also, there is no restriction from opening a web browser on the iPhone and signing up for a subscription on Spotify - so you are wrong again, not a good track record at all.

Just think for a moment, go on amazon and see if you are guided to another web site to make a purchase of a product you found on amazon? What, No? MONOPLOLY - sue amazon. Truth be told you don't walk into a Verizon store and see ads for AT&T, you don't walk into Macy's and see ads for Sears. so the argument being made is complete bonkers. So what if companies restrict advertising for external purchases within their own stores. Happens all the time - completely legal
 
What was Apple going to say… Tile exceeded our sales expectations. 🥺
So Apple intentionally lies about things to stifle competition? Is that what you are claiming? Wouldn’t that be illegal and get them into trouble with the SEC and the DOJ?

Can you prove Apple lied about Tile sales in their stores?
 
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It really doesn’t matter how much better than the old way of doing things Apple’s App Store is. That’s not the issue. The issue is that Apple locked down the phone so that no software can be installed initially. Then, they decided to reverse course and allow software but only if you go through their App Store where they get to take a cut.

I’m not saying the App Store is bad. I think it’s good and has benefitted developers. That doesn’t make it not anticompetitive. To go back to your brick and mortar analogy, I could go to many different retailers (Best Buy, Circuit City, Micro Center, etc.) and buy the same piece of software. Maybe somewhere would have it on sale and I would get a discount. The App Store is like the US government passing a law that says that only Best Buy is allowed to sell software now. That would have been decried as anticompetitive 20 years ago (and rightfully so). The App Store is the modern day version of that scenario. Doesn’t matter if it’s million times better than what came before. Apple is forcing all developers and all customers to go through its App Store to get software and collecting a cut in the process.
I've been following some of your comments and I have to say, respectfully, your analogies are lacking, and in general you seem to miss the point (or the consequences of the logic you've been using for that matter).


First of all, US antitrust law is severely lacking and unclear. In fact the Sherman Antitrust Act is so poorly written, that it essentially declares any form of doing business illegal, so the SCOTUS had to step in to make sure only "unreasonable" forms would be deemed illegal. Don't take my word for it, here's the FTC explaining pretty much the same.

Because the actual law on the matter is so lacking, most important parts of what are now considered staples of antitrust, have their foundation in case law.
The problem however, is that the subject itself is rather complicated, pitfalls in the form of unintended effects are everywhere, not many cases have the same fact pattern and there's the possibility that case law changes.

In particular the pitfall of unintended effects that can ripple through society, causes many to use analogies in cases that don't have a fact pattern that clearly aligns with prior case law.
Analogies are used in the Epic v Apple case, but analogies are also used outside of the courtroom. Analogies are used here on MacRumors, they're used on Reddit, they're used on Twitter.
Everyone is using analogies and thinks their analogy is the most correct and the other one isn't. Hell, I'm going to use an analogy (sort of) further down this comment.

The reason for these analogies is that there isn't clear cut case law on this, nor are there clear cut codified antitrust laws on this, and the digital world and how it does its commerce, is different from the brick-and-mortar world of yesteryear. So people are left to try and make it simple and make it fit a thing that does have a clear answer (either legally, or logically).

Anyways, having said that, there are some general principles when it comes to antitrust.
The one that seems relevant for the discussion here, with you, is that single brand markets are generally not considered a relevant market for anititrust purposes.

This makes sense. If the opposite was true, then everyone would possibly end up in hot water, just by virtue of making something.

I would have monopoly power with possible antitrust issues in the single brand market of poseidondev comments.
You would have monopoly power with possible antitrust issues in the single brand market of MacDevil7334 comments.
MacRumors would have monopoly power with possible antitrust issues in the single brand market of MacRumors articles.
And fancy analogies notwithstanding, this is what the Apple monopoly over distribution of iOS apps falls under.

That's not to say it had never occurred that single brand markets were considered a relevant market for antitrust purposes, but it's extremely rare and almost always the exceptions involved lock-in.
This is, amongst other things, what Epic is aiming for, but the who's who in the world of antitrust law considers it a "novel" argument, worse for Epic, the judge called it a "novel" argument. Novel in this context means as much as "deviating from current case law" and with it, an uphill battle.

Another general principle in antitrust, is that you preferably would like to see an active act of abuse of market power.
A clear example would be for example, Apple setting a very low commission at the start of the App Store, biding their time, and once everyone had adopted iOS, to then crank up the commission to above market rates.

Instead we see that the terms set at the start of the App Store, and more importantly, before the moment Apple gained significant market power, are the same as they are now and arguably more favorable. This is a thing that needs to be overcome for a multitude of reasons.

It's hard to argue that the disputed terms are uncompetitive, if it leads to an organic growth and success. Within the antitrust bubble, it is presumed that bad terms and uncompetitive behavior without significant market power, will be rooted out by competition with better terms and good behavior, and can't lead to organic growth.

The US legal system generally doesn't like penalizing successful companies for the sake of being successful.
An often used standard to determine problematic monopoly power is "the willful acquisition or maintenance of [monopoly] power as distinguished from growth or development as a consequence of a superior product, business acumen, or historic accident".
It's hard to argue that the acquisition of the current market power hasn't occurred due to "a superior product, business acumen, or historic accident", and since the terms of the App Store hasn't changed, other than in favor of developers with lower commissions, since the acquisition, it's a difficult argument to make that the maintenance is not a result of the same.

Again, in general you want an active act to be able to point to. It's not impossible to make your case without it, but it's very difficult.

All the other stuff you mentioned in your various analogies is for the most part irrelevant.

What is relevant however is that that if the terms were in place when they started with almost no market share and no developers on the platform, and despite those terms developers and users alike flocked to the platform, and the terms or commission rates haven't changed in an adverse way since Apple gained a potentially problematic market power in the antitrust sense (the date of which, as an aside, turns out to be pretty hard to pinpoint by the experts), then it becomes a very difficult case to make, analogies notwithstanding.

These three things, single brand markets (i.e. having a monopoly on your own brand/devices), the lack of a clear act done once substantial market power had been procured, and the fact that despite these terms users and developers alike willingly flocked to the platform years before the same terms are considered to be problematic by some parties, are the three biggest hurdles under the current antitrust principles.

The only way to change this, if that is something that's desired, is with new legislation that streamlines, codifies and clarifies antitrust laws.

The problem however is that it would require surgical precision to draft something that doesn't trigger unintended consequences and that doesn't create loopholes, plus there would be enormous corporate pressure to prevent something new and fresh because the principles that would need to be incorporated into an antitrust reform to take Apple down a peg, would affect a whole lot more than just Apple.
 
Therefore, Apple is forcing Spotify customers away from the iOS app to use a desktop or laptop computer to pay for subscriptions and other purchases. So just how exactly is this, in Apples own words 'intense competition'?.
Nonsense, you can use Safari on the iPhone to pay for subscriptions and other purchases outside the App Store. No desktop or laptop needed.
 
I never saw a use for a Tile tracker. Only reason I bought an AirTag is because I drink the Kool-Aid.

Got my AirTag, played around with it for 10 minutes and put it in my car. When I start going back to the office, I'll put it in my laptop bag.
 
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Incorrect and not the purpose for their statement, so your’s is misleading. There was no store for native apps prior to 2008. Apple intended to use HTML-5 as the access point for 3rd parties. The idea was pushed hard for native access and if happen. Ironically when competitors came out with WebOS that used, wait for it...WebApps! It was suddenly the iphone killer. Didn’t work out. Apple’s statement is referring to the Apps on other platforms before their AppStore. The barrier to entry was extremely high requiring not only access to companies like AT&T or Microsoft, but 10s to 100s of thousands of dollars to play, then you only got a 30% cut after all that. Apple leveled the playing field for millions to participate.

There have been dozens of comments along the lines of Apple only intended for there to be webapps at first, etc etc.

That may have been the case but you can STILL use a webapp with the iphone or ipad. There is nothing stopping someone from doing it. Except perhaps performance sometimes sucks -- which is why they want a native app in the first place.

As for the whole app store debate -- there are a few things I have subscribed to outside of the app store like Netflix and Spotify. It took all of three seconds. I do this multiple times a week with my amazon purchases too. That said, I prefer to keep my purchases through the app store for a) convenience and b) security. Amazon, Netflix and Spotify may be doing a great job with security but joe's small time app start up probably isn't.
 
I've been following some of your comments and I have to say, respectfully, your analogies are lacking, and in general you seem to miss the point (or the consequences of the logic you've been using for that matter).


First of all, US antitrust law is severely lacking and unclear. In fact the Sherman Antitrust Act is so poorly written, that it essentially declares any form of doing business illegal, so the SCOTUS had to step in to make sure only "unreasonable" forms would be deemed illegal. Don't take my word for it, here's the FTC explaining pretty much the same.

Because the actual law on the matter is so lacking, most important parts of what are now considered staples of antitrust, have their foundation in case law.
The problem however, is that the subject itself is rather complicated, pitfalls in the form of unintended effects are everywhere, not many cases have the same fact pattern and there's the possibility that case law changes.

In particular the pitfall of unintended effects that can ripple through society, causes many to use analogies in cases that don't have a fact pattern that clearly aligns with prior case law.
Analogies are used in the Epic v Apple case, but analogies are also used outside of the courtroom. Analogies are used here on MacRumors, they're used on Reddit, they're used on Twitter.
Everyone is using analogies and thinks their analogy is the most correct and the other one isn't. Hell, I'm going to use an analogy (sort of) further down this comment.

The reason for these analogies is that there isn't clear cut case law on this, nor are there clear cut codified antitrust laws on this, and the digital world and how it does its commerce, is different from the brick-and-mortar world of yesteryear. So people are left to try and make it simple and make it fit a thing that does have a clear answer (either legally, or logically).

Anyways, having said that, there are some general principles when it comes to antitrust.
The one that seems relevant for the discussion here, with you, is that single brand markets are generally not considered a relevant market for anititrust purposes.

This makes sense. If the opposite was true, then everyone would possibly end up in hot water, just by virtue of making something.

I would have monopoly power with possible antitrust issues in the single brand market of poseidondev comments.
You would have monopoly power with possible antitrust issues in the single brand market of MacDevil7334 comments.
MacRumors would have monopoly power with possible antitrust issues in the single brand market of MacRumors articles.
And fancy analogies notwithstanding, this is what the Apple monopoly over distribution of iOS apps falls under.

That's not to say it had never occurred that single brand markets were considered a relevant market for antitrust purposes, but it's extremely rare and almost always the exceptions involved lock-in.
This is, amongst other things, what Epic is aiming for, but the who's who in the world of antitrust law considers it a "novel" argument, worse for Epic, the judge called it a "novel" argument. Novel in this context means as much as "deviating from current case law" and with it, an uphill battle.

Another general principle in antitrust, is that you preferably would like to see an active act of abuse of market power.
A clear example would be for example, Apple setting a very low commission at the start of the App Store, biding their time, and once everyone had adopted iOS, to then crank up the commission to above market rates.

Instead we see that the terms set at the start of the App Store, and more importantly, before the moment Apple gained significant market power, are the same as they are now and arguably more favorable. This is a thing that needs to be overcome for a multitude of reasons.

It's hard to argue that the disputed terms are uncompetitive, if it leads to an organic growth and success. Within the antitrust bubble, it is presumed that bad terms and uncompetitive behavior without significant market power, will be rooted out by competition with better terms and good behavior, and can't lead to organic growth.

The US legal system generally doesn't like penalizing successful companies for the sake of being successful.
An often used standard to determine problematic monopoly power is "the willful acquisition or maintenance of [monopoly] power as distinguished from growth or development as a consequence of a superior product, business acumen, or historic accident".
It's hard to argue that the acquisition of the current market power hasn't occurred due to "a superior product, business acumen, or historic accident", and since the terms of the App Store hasn't changed, other than in favor of developers with lower commissions, since the acquisition, it's a difficult argument to make that the maintenance is not a result of the same.

Again, in general you want an active act to be able to point to. It's not impossible to make your case without it, but it's very difficult.

All the other stuff you mentioned in your various analogies is for the most part irrelevant.

What is relevant however is that that if the terms were in place when they started with almost no market share and no developers on the platform, and despite those terms developers and users alike flocked to the platform, and the terms or commission rates haven't changed in an adverse way since Apple gained a potentially problematic market power in the antitrust sense (the date of which, as an aside, turns out to be pretty hard to pinpoint by the experts), then it becomes a very difficult case to make, analogies notwithstanding.

These three things, single brand markets (i.e. having a monopoly on your own brand/devices), the lack of a clear act done once substantial market power had been procured, and the fact that despite these terms users and developers alike willingly flocked to the platform years before the same terms are considered to be problematic by some parties, are the three biggest hurdles under the current antitrust principles.

The only way to change this, if that is something that's desired, is with new legislation that streamlines, codifies and clarifies antitrust laws.

The problem however is that it would require surgical precision to draft something that doesn't trigger unintended consequences and that doesn't create loopholes, plus there would be enormous corporate pressure to prevent something new and fresh because the principles that would need to be incorporated into an antitrust reform to take Apple down a peg, would affect a whole lot more than just Apple.
Some pretty cogent arguments, based on broad legal principles that many folks may not be familiar with.

So it'll probably be ignored and/or misused by the vast majority of readers.
 
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