Apple Says 'We Won't Make an Exception' for Epic Games in App Store Dispute

[nt5672]

A contract that Apple can, and often does, unilaterally adjust and modify as they see fit. That's not a contract. It's coercion — because developers cannot pull out anymore once investments have been made into an iOS App. . . . .

And this is one of the things that can make a contract unenforceable.

 

[Reindeer_Legal]

Since we've all agreed that Epic Games has absolutely no chance in winning this because they have absolutely no legal grounds, let's talk about what Apple should do. Apple has the right to push a payment arrangement that it sees fit, it is a BUSINESS after all, however, I believe it would be more beneficial if Apple change their fee system. Namely, it shouldn't be a flat out 30% charge, but more of a progressive charge like the tax system. In our tax system we don't expect everyone to pay 30% tax. There's different tiers for different income levels - higher income pays more, lower income pays less. Should be like that for the App Store - multibillion dollar companies like Epic should be "taxed" at the highest tier, while the smaller developers would expect to pay much less. At a certain size, like a beginner dev with their first app, it would be free or close to it. As developers begin making more money and climbs the revenue ladder, Apple could increase the cut up until a maximum limit. Apps making tens of millions of dollars a month could rightfully expect to the pay the highest amount, since they're benefiting from the App Store the most. I'm sure some will still whine and complain though, but that just takes us back to where we are today with Epic Games vs Apple.

One legal ground: App Store's restrictions are illegal and therefore invalid.

 

[dguisinger]

Since we've all agreed that Epic Games has absolutely no chance in winning this because they have absolutely no legal grounds, let's talk about what Apple should do. Apple has the right to push a payment arrangement that it sees fit, it is a BUSINESS after all, however, I believe it would be more beneficial if Apple change their fee system. Namely, it shouldn't be a flat out 30% charge, but more of a progressive charge like the tax system. In our tax system we don't expect everyone to pay 30% tax. There's different tiers for different income levels - higher income pays more, lower income pays less. Should be like that for the App Store - multibillion dollar companies like Epic should be "taxed" at the highest tier, while the smaller developers would expect to pay much less. At a certain size, like a beginner dev with their first app, it would be free or close to it. As developers begin making more money and climbs the revenue ladder, Apple could increase the cut up until a maximum limit. Apps making tens of millions of dollars a month could rightfully expect to the pay the highest amount, since they're benefiting from the App Store the most. I'm sure some will still whine and complain though, but that just takes us back to where we are today with Epic Games vs Apple.

I don't think "we've all agreed" at all. There is a group of about 10 very vocal members beating their chests with the same tired old talking points over and over, who clearly have no expertise in this area of law. Personally I think its a toss up. The legal team Epic hired is really good, and really knows their stuff. We will see where this goes.

 

[forgotmyhandle]

The iPhone is just ONE bar. There is a Samsung bar, a Google bar, a One Plus bar, a Microsoft bar, an Oppo bar etc..
There's no way you will not be able to drink!
Epic just want to sell drinks in the bar with richest clientele...
So pay up or go home, has business ever been any different?

The bar analogy:
Epic wants to sell its drinks directly to customers in Apple's bar, without paying Apple any fee.

 

[idiiamots]

One legal ground: App Store's restrictions are illegal and therefore invalid.

Which law do they violate? Could you provide a citation and perhaps some court cases which support this opinion?

 

[Ethosik]

Meanwhile cloudflare is free.

Nope. $200 a month for business with a max of 200 MB for an upload. https://www.cloudflare.com/plans/

 

[Anox]

Would you apply that to everybody? Right now Apple is only applying it to a very specific group of businesses. Companies like Uber, Airbnb, Walmart, Amazon, etc. are all able to sell goods through their apps and entirely avoid the mandatory Apple payment system if they want. I'm curious how much, if anything, Apple gets off the massive amount of Uber revenue that is generated by the Uber app simply because of Apple's arbitrary decision to not apply their in-app payment rules to services.

I don’t think Uber offers in app purchases...

to my understanding there is a difference between in app purchases and selling goods or services the guidelines might define it otherwise but Uber, MacDonalds, Starbucks are not listing IAP

 

[Reindeer_Legal]

Let's make this clear.
1. Offering a platform for developers sell products to users is a service.
2. An operating system on which users can run apps is a service product.
3. These two are distinct. They can be offered by different entities. And even if they are provided by the same entity, they are functionally separable.
4. "An unlawful monopoly exists when one firm controls the market for a product or service, and it has obtained that market power, not because its product or service is superior to others, but by suppressing competition with anticompetitive conduct." (https://www.justice.gov/atr/antitrust-laws-and-you)
5. Therefore, Apple's App Store has an unlawful monopoly over the first service.

 

[mariusignorello]

Let me scroll through any posts about developers having to switch to subscription models and let’s see how many of you are truly pro-developer and really care about the little guy.

Let’s face it, most are just as greedy with their own wallets as Apple is with their cash flow. And...that’s ok. Everyone has a right to manage and protect their income no matter if it’s you or a huge company like Apple.

 

[Anox]

Which law do they violate? Could you provide a citation and perhaps some court cases which support this opinion?

Honestly I am so interested to see that many claims that the guidelines and terms are void because of illegality but can’t seem to find anything supporting that

 

[Reindeer_Legal]

Nope. $200 a month for business with a max of 200 MB for an upload. https://www.cloudflare.com/plans/

Cloudflare's free plan doesn't place any restriction on your use. You can use it for business. You need the business plan when you want 100% uptime SLA, bla bla.

 

[windywalks]

Apple is anti consumer. They allow anticompetitive practices by letting Amazon to use their own payment processing but do not allow Epic to do so. This just means that customers have to pay higher prices for apps and developers have less resources to create better experiences.

Apple is anti developer. Disabling Epic access to Apple Dev Kit will hurt all developers making games and other apps on Apple products. The majority of all top triple A games on the App Store use Unreal Engine. I am a game developer and personally use Unreal Engine on my Mac (maybe only for another 10 days if Apple succeeds in banning Epic).

Another anti competitive practice Apple does is not allowing cloud streaming games with xCloud / Stadia but lets Netflix stream movies. Apple is stifling innovation in order to squeeze as much money from customers as possible.

This is not the Apple that I fell in love with. Epic is right, Apple has become rotten.

How is xCloud or Stadia innovative?
Game streaming has been around for ages and has been a subpar experience.
Streaming audio-visuals like Netflix is not the same as constant two way data exchange necessary for playing streaming games.

How is standing up to Apple's 30% cut rule Epic agreed to virtuous in light of Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft taking the exact same cut in their stores?
Did you forget about Google also taking Fortnite down, or did that skip tour mind?

And finally, how am I supposed to take anything you say seriously if you probably created this account for trolling purposes only?

 

[dguisinger]

Let's make this clear.
1. Offering a platform for developers sell products to users is a service.
2. An operating system on which users can run apps is a service.
3. These two services are distinct. They can be offered by different entities. And even if they are provided by the same entity, they are functionally separable.
4. "An unlawful monopoly exists when one firm controls the market for a product or service, and it has obtained that market power, not because its product or service is superior to others, but by suppressing competition with anticompetitive conduct." (https://www.justice.gov/atr/antitrust-laws-and-you)
5. Therefore, Apple's App Store has an unlawful monopoly over the first service.

You are appealing to logic, there isn't a whole lot of that with a bunch of worked up angry fans

 

[Ethosik]

Cloudflare's free plan doesn't place any restriction on your use. You can use it for business. You need the business plan when you want 100% uptime SLA, bla bla.

The free tier only allows a max if 100MB to be uploaded. Last I checked 2GB apps are larger than 100 MB.

 

[mariusignorello]

Don’t be selling drinks inside my bar without giving me a cut...

if you think the cut is too big then go to another bar down the street or start your own bar!

its been the same game for centuries!
I don’t get all the moaning as if everyone’s a charity. They are ALL businesses out to make money. Stop caping for them!

Honestly I’m losing hope in these forums. The amount of hypocrisy and lack of basic knowledge about money and business practices is just scary. Not to mention, most on here are just as greedy as the developers, as Epic and as Apple in the name of “pro-consumer”. What do you call that? Greed. 😏

 

[dguisinger]

How is xCloud or Stadia innovative?
Game streaming has been around for ages and has been a subpar experience.
Streaming audio-visuals like Netflix is not the same as constant two way data exchange necessary for playing streaming games.

How is standing up to Apple's 30% cut rule Epic agreed to virtuous in light of Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft taking the exact same cut in their stores?
Did you forget about Google also taking Fortnite down, or did that skip tour mind?

And finally, how am I supposed to take anything you say seriously if you probably created this account for trolling purposes only?

Who are you who gets to define innovation, or experience?

 

[Anox]

Let's make this clear.
1. Offering a platform for developers sell products to users is a service.
2. An operating system on which users can run apps is a service.
3. These two services are distinct. They can be offered by different entities. And even if they are provided by the same entity, they are functionally separable.
4. "An unlawful monopoly exists when one firm controls the market for a product or service, and it has obtained that market power, not because its product or service is superior to others, but by suppressing competition with anticompetitive conduct." (https://www.justice.gov/atr/antitrust-laws-and-you)
5. Therefore, Apple's App Store has an unlawful monopoly over the first service.

Isn’t this a broad term I wonder what the court looks for maybe if there is direct competition
Or maybe they look into financial flow
Anyway it still falls odd as there is alternatives you might just not like it

 

[Reindeer_Legal]

What

Isn’t this a broad term I wonder what the court looks for maybe if there is direct competition
Or maybe they look into financial flow
Anyway it still falls odd as there is alternatives you might just not like it

What's an alternative to App Store on iOS?

 

[mariusignorello]

Let's make this clear.
1. Offering a platform for developers sell products to users is a service.
2. An operating system on which users can run apps is a service.
3. These two services are distinct. They can be offered by different entities. And even if they are provided by the same entity, they are functionally separable.
4. "An unlawful monopoly exists when one firm controls the market for a product or service, and it has obtained that market power, not because its product or service is superior to others, but by suppressing competition with anticompetitive conduct." (https://www.justice.gov/atr/antitrust-laws-and-you)
5. Therefore, Apple's App Store has an unlawful monopoly over the first service.

An OS is a product, not a service. Apple does not sell iOS on a subscription, it is licensed for “free” with the purchase of Apple-branded hardware. Windows was borderline OSaaS but that never became a thing. I’m not sure if this changes your point but just wanted to point this out.

 

[consumerDan]

Did you ban them from using Discord? Spotify? Riot Games? Everything from Epic? Activision? Those are all Tencent
What about Tiktok?

What about hardware produced in China? Apple? Android? Your TV, monitors, consoles, .... did you tell them they have to go to school naked because their clothes were made in China?

Yes to all - every device had Titok removed. They don't use all those services though. If I can pick and choose services (which I can because there is choice) I will. I can't force a manufacturer to not manufacture in China, but I would advocate it. Even FoxConn is saying that manufacturing in China is pretty much over.

It appears that most of our clothes are made in Vietnam... so we're all good!

If we allow China to have control in our US based businesses and services it gives them too much leverage. The difference between us and them, is businesses are independent and make international investments. Chinese "companies" (see front for PRC) invest even at loses so they can gain power and control. Don't underestimate the evil-ness of the PRC. Communism and socialism at work. China currently has internment camps right now. Talk about an unpopular position from a historical standpoint, but this is right now. Today.

You don't work for the PRC, do you? A lot of moles popping up these days in the US or from the mainland.

 

[Anox]

You are appealing to logic, there isn't a whole lot of that with a bunch of worked up angry fans

So now this is the argument being a fan of something...?

I am trying to find reading material about previous antitrust cases that might resemble
instead of mocking fans and demeaning information when it is given maybe you could provide that

 

[78Bandit]

I don’t think Uber offers in app purchases...

to my understanding there is a difference between in app purchases and selling goods or services the guidelines might define it otherwise but Uber, MacDonalds, Starbucks are not listing IAP

You do initiate payment for Uber services from directly in the app and it gets charged to your credit card without going through Apple's payment system. You can even add a tip directly in the app that gets added to your bill. Apple may define an "in-app purchase" differently, but functionally they are the same. The only distinction is Apple's arbitrary insistence that purveyors of digital goods must use Apple's payment system from within the app while other sellers are free to use whatever payment method they want.

 

[Ethosik]

The iPhone is just ONE bar. There is a Samsung bar, a Google bar, a One Plus bar, a Microsoft bar, an Oppo bar etc..
There's no way you will not be able to drink!
Epic just want to sell drinks in the bar with richest clientele...
So pay up or go home, has business ever been any different?

Yes. Epic wants to open up a bar in a bar, where the main bar still pays for the utilities and infrastructure of the building and so on.

 

[cmaier]

Mall charges for the space the shops occupy not taking cut in the sales revenue unless the mall offers free space for the shops.

Malls absolutely take a cut of revenue of the shops.

 

[Kabeyun]

One legal ground: App Store's restrictions are illegal and therefore invalid.

If only the judge reads your post, they can dispense with all that expensive legal wrangling and jump straight to Epic’s verdict!