Apple Says 'We Won't Make an Exception' for Epic Games in App Store Dispute

[DanTheMan827]

iCloud is not a backup.

Then what's this?

 

[m11rphy]

What if I want to install Android on the hardware that I own?

If I bought a ferrari I could replace the engine if I wanted.

Not without recoding the ECU you couldn't and even then you would need to break the security of the Ferrari software to to do that so effectively you would be jail breaking you Ferrari the same way you can jail break your iPhone

Just dont expect apple or Ferrari to honour your warranty

 

[DanTheMan827]

Just shut down the app store in those areas.

That would just re-enforce their monopolistic behavior

 

[4jasontv]

Then what's this?

A misnomer.

 

[iReality85]

Eh, not exactly a good analogy either. I'm pretty sure Epic makes more money from microtransactions on console and iOS devices than PC. Much larger player base on iOS and console compared to PC.

It's a like-for-like comparison; it's only a bad analogy because theirs was bad to begin. It was to prove a point.

The comparison to PC prices is valid, because it's the example Epic used for purchasing V-bucks.

And commission among platforms and consoles are largely the same:

Apple (iOS): 30%
Google (Android): 30%
Steam: 30%
Nintendo (Switch): 30%
Sony (PS4): 30%
MS (Xbox): 5% / 15%

 

[DanTheMan827]

Go back and re-read the specifics. Apple is blocking them for distributing a version of their app via the App Store that bypasses the App Store for payments. Not for distributing a game outside of the App Store that processes payments outside of the App Store.

If they were to use their developer account to distribute the game outside of the App Store (which is possible) Apple would still revoke their account for distributing outside of the App Store

 

[gnasher729]

What I find rather interesting is that Epic never mentioned the point they were supposed to rectify in order not to have their developer account closed or maybe I just missed that.

They submitted an app for review, and it was accepted. Then months later, the app changed its behaviour in a way that wouldn't have passed the app review in a million years. That's I would say is fraudulent. Apple is perfectly right to say "if you act like this, then we don't want to do any business with you".

 

[Plutonius]

Both Apple and Epic are corporations whose goal is to maximize shareholder value.

The customers and developers have little bearing on their decisions other than to maximize shareholder value.

 

[Vistion123]

I’m for Apple in this case. While it can be argued now that 30% cut is steep, the reach that 30% can get is quite far, so the debate isn’t really Apple’s tax, but if the cost out weighs the rewards.

That said, the focus is on the wrong aspect here, and I would say Epic is the money grubby power here. Here we have a company that is NOT struggling to develop any game or software, but making hand over fist for a game they essentially plagiarized from PUBG Thats missing out of 30 cents per dollar on not just the Apple App Store, but Xbox Marketplace and the PSN Store. So this target on Apple is more to do with taking advantage of the current government scrutiny then Apple being monopolistic. It’s important to note Epic is playing the same message against Apple they played against Valve and the Steam store front. Let’s not forget this company now charges to host games on it’s own platform, (which does charge a cut for purchases made), but also skims off the top with licensing fees for using their game engine unless you use their store front, which to me seems more anti-competitive then a cut straight across the board.

Source for Epic’s fight against steam
Source for Epic’s statistics

 

[dguisinger]

Do not agree with anything. Storage is cheap, setting up farms of integrated storage that has fail over and consumes the energy of a small nuclear plant is not.
This sort of highligts the problem, it is not as simple as buying a couple of extra harddrives or just having the ability to side-chain apps it all has costs and implications. Take the side-chaining of apps that apple has to sign. The current appstore has a lot of apps, who should pay for the appsigning when Apple gets zero? Who should pay for Xcode updates and the propagation of that to a million plus devices? You are making a hard problem simple beyond belief.

I am more than aware, but you know what, that is a common "problem" that has been solved over and over. Having several cloud certifications and using AWS daily, I can assure you, Amazon is not losing money on their S3 service for storage and bandwidth charges, and if Apple had similar rates, most smaller developers would be paying pennies.... Epic sure, tens of thousands. If Apple can't pull off what anyone else in Cloud can, then they are in the wrong business.

The rest of your comment is such garbage its not even worth responding to.

 

[dynamojoe]

From my perspective, Epic are the ones playing dirty turning this into a publicity stunt and throwing a tantrum because they want to pay less. If this was just about freedom and offering prohibited apps (e.g. xCloud) then they wouldn't also be suing Google where this isn't an issue.

TL;DR Epic are a billion dollar company and are fighting to line their pockets and not for "freedom" or for us.

Epic not only wants to pay less, they want a piece of the action. If they get their own iOS store, which is their stated goal, that's another company that has your CC info, contact information, your and your family members' purchase history, they can post their own advertisements, etc. Then Microsoft will have a separate store, Facebook, Adobe, TenCent (who owns 40% of Epic so of course the fifty cent army is out in force on this one), and a bunch of others will have app stores of varying quality, terms of service, CC info, etc. It'll be a sloppy mess.

Further, it won't provide anything measurably better for the consumer. Apple's not going to let developers with their own store run anything they couldn't through the App store, so it's not like Apple is going to allow something like CellMapper onto the platform. Fortnite won't be better because it comes from the Epic store - it just means Epic gets more of the profits.

 

[cmaier]

Really? Most of my subscriptions on iOS are already outside of the Apple ecosystem... Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, Foreflight, Ring. I'm already fully capable of adulting and managing these things

Then that’s your choice (and then I don’t see what the issue is. You can do the same with Epic).

Personally, if i can choose between subscribing through apple or not, I pick apple.

 

[omenatarhuri]

Apple should decrease their app revenue cut from 30% to 15% to show how much they care about their developers.

They could also consider making it progressive. Start from 5% and step up depending on revenue per month all the way up to 30%. That would be nice for us small fish.

 

[sence]

They submitted an app for review, and it was accepted. Then months later, the app changed its behaviour in a way that wouldn't have passed the app review in a million years. That's I would say is fraudulent. Apple is perfectly right to say "if you act like this, then we don't want to do any business with you".

Yeah I get that, but was that the reason for termination of the developer account. They left the points out that Apple was refering to.

 

[cmaier]

Yeah I get that, but was that the reason for termination of the developer account. They left the points out that Apple was refering to.

I think the problem is that the existing app, breaking the rules, still exists on many devices. So apple likely demanding an update of the app that removed the option to bill directly to epic, and epic refused.

 

[sence]

They could also consider making it progressive. Start from 5% and step up depending on revenue per month all the way up to 30%. That would be nice for us small fish.

Maybe we should turn the tables a bit here, perhaps they should make the developer account more expensive if your app is ****. In steps mind you, so you get a friendly email saying: Hey your lame app has just been taking up space on our server for almost a year with close to zero downloads. We would like you to start paying for being a lamer, fifty bucks extra please.

 

[nnn3]

Would you apply that to everybody? Right now Apple is only applying it to a very specific group of businesses. Companies like Uber, Airbnb, Walmart, Amazon, etc. are all able to sell goods through their apps and entirely avoid the mandatory Apple payment system if they want. I'm curious how much, if anything, Apple gets off the massive amount of Uber revenue that is generated by the Uber app simply because of Apple's arbitrary decision to not apply their in-app payment rules to services.

Hm...
Yes, I probably would apply the same to everyone. I would take the % off the hotel situated in my mall, and also from the taxi service adjacent to the mall.

But then again, I am not really upset if some other mall wants to do it differently. If Company A feels that having ACDC constantly perform in their mall attracts more people to the mall, they could choose not to charge rent from ACDC. Now, if I were Lyft and had to pay, I would not be happy with it. Or if I am Def Leppard and never gets an invitation to play....

 

[PlainBelliedSneetch]

Yes, they do actually from AAA studios and indie developers. I literally have over $1000 worth of free games I have accumulated from the Epic Game Store since they've started giving away free games each week.

Epic is investing some of their vbuck profits to promote their store by giving away free games. They know that Fortnite’s popularity will eventually decline. My recent survey of one 12 year old and her friends shows that Fortnite is out and Roblox is in.

Apple used to give away apps on the App Store.

 

[4jasontv]

Ah yes, if paying people to create the product can't be supported because Apple's greed made you unprofitable in an anticompetitive environment, why did you even try?

Yes. Very nasty Apple. Springing up the charge at the last minute. Developers have no idea what Apple will take until they submit the app to the app store. There is no way to plan for this before development starts.

 

[Icehart]

EPIC is silly. They should just charge 30% more for iOS users and be done with it, similar to Youtube.
Apple users will have no issue paying 30% more for the practices that protect the ecosystem.

 

[sence]

I think the problem is that the existing app, breaking the rules, still exists on many devices. So apple likely demanding an update of the app that removed the option to bill directly to epic, and epic refused.

Hmm probably so, just 50% of a response does not sit well with me.

 

[4jasontv]

Epic is investing some of their vbuck profits to promote their store by giving away free games. They know that Fortnite’s popularity will eventually decline. My recent survey of one 12 year old and her friends shows that Fortnite is out and Roblox is in.

Apple used to give away apps on the App Store.

They are giving away other peoples games. They are both lowering the value of competing stores and decreasing the value of games made by developers. Look at game sale subreddits. There is always someone that reminds people that a game was free on epic so they shouldn't buy it on their preferred platform.

 

[DanTheMan827]

Epic is investing some of their vbuck profits to promote their store by giving away free games. They know that Fortnite’s popularity will eventually decline. My recent survey of one 12 year old and her friends shows that Fortnite is out and Roblox is in.

Apple used to give away apps on the App Store.

Roblox itself violates the app store rules, specifically the one about not being allowed to run code from outside sources.

Apple does not treat all apps equally, Kodi was rejected because it has a python interpreter for add-ons, yet there are apps whose sole purpose is to parse and run python code

Roblox parses and runs LUA code

 

[seanbperiod]

This makes no sense - so it's ok for Apple to give Amazon a 15% cut in their percentage but no one else?

Documents show Apple gave Amazon special treatment to get Prime Video into App Store

Apple agreed to charge Amazon a 15 percent fee instead of the standard 30 for subscriptions.

www.theverge.com

While I agree that this is just rich corporations complaining about pennies - there should be something in place, like if a certain $ amount is brought in, Apple's cut gets knocked down. Not just for Amazon. Similar to Twitch partners with super high viewership - they get a higher cut than other partners with lower viewer counts.

 

[Ethosik]

Apple claiming they won't make an exception for Epic are being ridiculous. The apps were not updated other than Fortnite. If Apple deletes them, then they are acknowledging that they were playing special privileges beforehand in favour of Epic. If they do not delete them while still insisting they breached the EULA, then they are acknowledging that they are still playing special privileges.

They can't win that game. EPIC has thought this through very, very carefully.

The notion that this is about privacy is ridiculous. If they want to ban EPIC but keep Tencent with WeChat around, then they can absolutely go and 100% plough themselves on that statement. Usually, when it's about privacy, Apple will introduce various sandboxing technologies and warnings for the user.

The notion that PayPal is a privacy concern as compared to Apple is likewise ridiculous. PayPal is a very well known and safe broker that is cheaper, but also led to creating a little company called TESLA.

This is about payment processing fees and nothing else. Make no mistake about that.


A court of law does not care about EULA's if another law enters the picture. EULA's have to conform to law.


On the one hand people say that small companies can't fight the big ones.
On the other hand people say that big companies are becoming big monopolistic monoliths that hurt the consumer.
And yet people are also saying that big companies shouldn't fight big companies to protect themselves and smaller companies because that's immoral seeing as they're big themselves.

How is anybody supposed to win this farce?

Let EPIC try. If they fail, too bad. At least someone tried to break this non-sense down.

No it is tied to the developer account. Smaller developers would probably have already gotten their developer account banned by now.