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Apple cannot control the customer experience if multiple payment systems are involved. Have you looked around stores that carry other peoples products like Amazon and Walmart? Guess what you have to pay them directly and there is no way to get around this. Sure you can use your MC, Visa, or AMEX, but it is run through the hosting store because they are ultimately responsible for the transaction.
You also can’t use Apple Pay at Walmart and have to use Walmart pay. Apple should Sue Walmart
 
Apple recoups R&D and development with hardware sales and fees for app store transactions.

How do you know? How do you decide which revenue stream recoups cost and which is profit? And why would it matter? Epic recoups cost by licencing unreal. They don't need to sell any V-Bucks.
 
Agreed. There are fixed costs with distribution. These days bandwidth is measured in gigabytes per penny. Storage is cheap. The biggest cost is in their review process, but lets be honest, they aren't consistent in the amount of time they spend looking at things so who knows what that is.

Distribution is cheap, but have you ever seen the cost to build out a data center? My brother works for Amazon - and the last project was close to $1,250 per square foot on the build out before just starting out running it - thats a lot of 30% cuts of a $.99 IAP - thats close to 4000 IAP per square foot to just break even.
 
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A contract that Apple can, and often does, unilaterally adjust and modify as they see fit. That's not a contract. It's coercion — because developers cannot pull out anymore once investments have been made into an iOS App.

Apple has turned hostile towards developers and as a result, hostile towards consumers. I want choice. I want freedom. I want to decide what I can put on my phone. Not Apple.
Supposedly you have Android but Epic is claiming that They can’t do so over there aswell

epic scaleis minuscule compared to Apple or Google and yet they deem 30% unjust?
 
Read the lawsuit and you'll find Epic actually wants to operate an App Store in parallel to Apple and Google where Epic would review apps, set prices, commissions, and rules; essentially a parallel walled garden of Epic design. So, even if Epic wins this, and I don't think they will but that's another line of thought entirely, not much would change as far as cost to the consumer except who would get the 30% commission; Epic would.
 
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What if I want to install Android on the hardware that I own?

If I bought a ferrari I could replace the engine if I wanted.

You own the hardware, and if you can replace the operating system without violating any software license agreement (for example, by modifying the bootloader and therefore creating a derivative work of copyrighted software), have at it. But Apple has no obligation to build in security weaknesses to enable you to do so.
 
So far I have heard of mainly big companies complaining

Is because they need to keep their shareholders and investors happy - even when you are not public - when an investor wants more return, you try to find it anywhere you can, and sometimes you find your fees to fight about.
 
I think both of these companies are in the wrong. Epic shouldn’t be taking this approach, but Apple shouldn’t be claiming they “treat all developers equally” while giving preferential treatment to Amazon.

Make the criteria for a lower Apple tax transparent or stop lying and saying all developers get the same treatment.
I always believed that amazon was making an offer so good that it changed the guidelines but since Netflix or Disney+ won’t really answer I guess we may never know
 
What if I want to install Android on the hardware that I own?

If I bought a ferrari I could replace the engine if I wanted.

Actually - you couldn't on the Ferrari - Ferrari protect their brand quite well and would likely send you a lawsuit preventing you from doing so - its happened before. Often the solution is that they would want you to remove their branding from your car and you would be blacklisted from ever buying another Ferrari from Ferrari.
 
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With developer certificate revoked, Epic cannot get their software "notarized" to be able to be run on later versions of macOS. This is regardless of its presence or absence in the Mac App Store.
You can still run software that isn't notarized on the latest version of macOS, just control-click and click open
 
What if I want to install Android on the hardware that I own?

If I bought a ferrari I could replace the engine if I wanted.

  • Android OS is open source, designed to run on ARM based architecture and x86-64 architectures. Windows operating system(s) are not open source, but can work on many different types of x86 and x64 architecture.
    • iOS is not open source and is specifically designed to run on specific hardware (which is also made by Apple).
  • If you could buy a Ferrari (even a used older one), you'd more than likely be putting in a rebuilt Ferrari engine in it because their engines are amazing. No one would put some inferior cheaper motor in a Ferrari for the sake of saving money.... you just bought a Ferrari.
 
Except this situation is less about the store itself and more about the forced use of Apple's payment system. Using your analogy it would be like the mall allows retailers to set up stores in the facility but then requires all patrons to use a mall-specific payment card that automatically adds an additional 30% to the transaction.
To me that is just how the rent is defined. It could be a fixed amount per developer, a fixed amount per sold item, or any other way. To me the % per sold item seems to be the most fair possible to everyone.

Would it be better if it were % sold per item to be in the store, and another % per item to use the in-store payment system? I assume that the end result would be about the same.
 
I somehow think that Apple mgmt. has been in touch with the internal and external attorneys and has gotten the green light to escalate this.

Good for Apple for standing their ground, it's in the best interests of their customers...imo.
 
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Apple prevents you from opening your own "bar" in this case even if you wanted to

The iPhone is just ONE bar. There is a Samsung bar, a Google bar, a One Plus bar, a Microsoft bar, an Oppo bar etc..
There's no way you will not be able to drink!
Epic just want to sell drinks in the bar with richest clientele...
So pay up or go home, has business ever been any different?
 
That’d still leave the point that if not for apple’s payment system, we’d all have a hundred recurring charges on our credit cards, and we’d all be spending hours on the phone with dozens of app developers trying to cancel services we never signed up for, no longer want, or which were already cancelled but somehow keep getting charged.

Because that was life before the App Store.


Really? Most of my subscriptions on iOS are already outside of the Apple ecosystem... Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, Foreflight, Ring. I'm already fully capable of adulting and managing these things
 
I really don't get this way of thinking. If a developer wants to earn 20 cents per IAP they simply need to charge 30 cents. That's it.

This might affect end customers, but it's not affecting developers.
They can sell through their website. Like Netflix does.

There's one problem though. When I signed up to Netflix, that was a conscious decision that my wife and I made together (it's not _that_ expensive, but it's more money than I would want to throw away). But in-app purchases for games are just stupid and they are only made because people don't think straight; it's an impulse buy. A lot of it is exploiting impressionable young kids. If you had to go through a website, lots of the sales wouldn't be made. Many, many parents would thank Apple if all purchases had to be made through Epic's website.
 
Game developers already don't take Apple platforms seriously. I'm worried that with xCloud and now this, that Apple will never be considered a platform game devs want to be on themselves. I'm working on a Mac / iOS 3D modeler that is more productive than Blender for mobile game workflows, I'm considering trying to rework the app to be cross platform despite the fact that it will be a tremendous amount of work (Vulkan backend, new UI framework, port of OpenSubdiv to Vulkan).

Spend time in game developer forums and the Apple hate has been going strong for years. I really wish Apple would work to really try to attract the only group of creative users that are strongly in the Windows camp.
As someone who enjoys doing art I can tell you that you have got me interested and depending on your business model I know people would like it

Apple is attractive and that’s something people won’t admit
 
Distribution is cheap, but have you ever seen the cost to build out a data center? My brother works for Amazon - and the last project was close to $1,250 per square foot on the build out before just starting out running it - thats a lot of 30% cuts of a $.99 IAP - thats close to 4000 IAP per square foot to just break even.

So....30 seconds of IAP per square foot to break even, because at Apple's scale, 4,000 is nothing. And 4000 IAP wouldn't swamp CPUs, I think Apple is able to afford sufficient data center space just fine.
 
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To me that is just how the rent is defined. It could be a fixed amount per developer, a fixed amount per sold item, or any other way. To me the % per sold item seems to be the most fair possible to everyone.

Would it be better if it were % sold per item to be in the store, and another % per item to use the in-store payment system? I assume that the end result would be about the same.

Would you apply that to everybody? Right now Apple is only applying it to a very specific group of businesses. Companies like Uber, Airbnb, Walmart, Amazon, etc. are all able to sell goods through their apps and entirely avoid the mandatory Apple payment system if they want. I'm curious how much, if anything, Apple gets off the massive amount of Uber revenue that is generated by the Uber app simply because of Apple's arbitrary decision to not apply their in-app payment rules to services.
 
Agreed. There are fixed costs with distribution. These days bandwidth is measured in gigabytes per penny. Storage is cheap. The biggest cost is in their review process, but lets be honest, they aren't consistent in the amount of time they spend looking at things so who knows what that is.

They should charge something based on the number of downloads, whether your app is free or not.
If they want a large chunk of change up front on initial sale, feel free.
Subscription or in-app purchases, they shouldn't be the ones to judge if something is tangable real world items or digital content that they should claim 30% on, it should all be considered the same.... because Apple doesn't provide the actual services involved in either case.

The requirement should be you can use Apple's IAP engine, or a combination of yours and Apple's...to be in the store.

If you don't want to be in the store, Apple should allow installation of signed applications. They would still have a kill switch if it were found someone introduced malware.

For smaller developers, yeah i could see the App Store as being a great way to be discovered - though these days its way too cluttered and hard to find much of anything useful that I don't already have. But its really hard to argue larger developers like Epic or Microsoft or Netflix need to be discovered, they just need to be downloaded. Apple isn't putting marketing dollars into promoting them in their store for discovery. People don't learn of these big profile apps in the store. Quite often they are Epic or Microsoft or Netflix customers looking for a smartphone to run on and just need to get it installed. The whole we make a level playing field argument is wrong in my opinion - it will never be a level playing field. You have 1st party apps that don't pay the 30% and are therefore given an advantage. You have major high profile apps that the benefit of Apple having them is actually bigger for them making their devices accepted and useful over building the developers. Apple's statements have acted like they enabled Epic to become what they are, Epic has been around a long time. Epic didn't need the App Store to build their business like Apple claims - Epic was forced to use the App Store to hit part of the market that Apple had locked down, thats it.

Do not agree with anything. Storage is cheap, setting up farms of integrated storage that has fail over and consumes the energy of a small nuclear plant is not.
This sort of highligts the problem, it is not as simple as buying a couple of extra harddrives or just having the ability to side-chain apps it all has costs and implications. Take the side-chaining of apps that apple has to sign. The current appstore has a lot of apps, who should pay for the appsigning when Apple gets zero? Who should pay for Xcode updates and the propagation of that to a million plus devices? You are making a hard problem simple beyond belief.
 
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