Apple Second Quarter Results

[groovebuster]

Riiight... So 170-something thousand people is the same as nobody?

Everybody predicted Apple to sell significantly more machines after the introduction of the G5s. Again: the market grew more than 10%, Apple sells only 5% more CPUs. And that after a few years of very bad market conditions for all computer manufacturers. You should learn how to read between the lines.

Kind of funny how everyone keeps harping on needing marketshare to survive, when Apple's not been a market leader since the early 80s, and yet they're still going strong, while other startups that are playing in the safer, cheaper PC world are crumbling.

Nobody ever said Apple has to be the market leader. Why Apple is still drawing profits even though they have a low market share I already explained.

Yep, not significant at all. They've only been leading everyone else around for how long, now? How many of the major software groups develop products for OS X? What important, daily things can you not do on a mac, just as easily as on a PC? For that matter, what professional tasks can you not do on a mac?

Tell me anything by Apple the last 4 years that was "leading everyone else around"...

There are many software titles being standard in the PC world (especially business apps) that you won't get for a Mac. And that's exactly why in a lot of cases Macs are not an option. The world is not only Photoshop and Office, it is also many other pro apps. Your argument is vaild exactly this way for Wintel boxes... What professional tasks can you not do on a Windows PC?

I don't know why you are so aggressive about it? And don't tell me that the video or music production market is cutting it. These are small niche markets where Apple is very competitive at the moment, but e.g. a company that needs visio or SAP clients on their machines couldn't care less if FCP is only available for the Mac.

Here's a hint: The list of lacks is short to nonexistent. The list of important developers isn't.

A hint for you, even though I said it already: the world isn't just Photoshop and Office.

Reasoned disagreement is one thing. Blind and selfish whining isn't, and that's all that DHM ever offers to any discussion about Apple. They don't make his dream machine, so they suck. They don't have 9800XTs, so they suck. They have economic issues other companies don't have to deal with, so they suck.

I didn't talk about DHM in particular. And even if he is kind of negative all the time, I think his comments hold some water. Because he acts and thinks like a typical consumer. These are the people that Apple wants to sell computers to. I am a Mac user since a very long time and it was always my preferred platform, so I don't need to be convinced about the advantages. But there are people who want to see a real benefit of switching to a Mac or people who switched feel left alone in the dark after they got rid of their PC. The problem is way more complex than just saying: "Apple is making profits, so what are people whining about?"

It gets old, watching someone who can't even comprehend the basics of what they're attacking. It's the same reason I grew tired of the 'Christians' around me thinking that anything they didn't like was obviously Satanic. While a prevalent human trait, it's annoying.

This part of your comment was totally unnecessary...

groovebuster

 

[make it usable]

Switching strategy

Apple haven't got a year for the i-pod switching strategy, they need to make it work now.

I love the story about someone going into an Apple store to buy an i-pod, but Apple need to be more aggressive.

First of all they need a cheaper i-book, that can be bundled with i-pods, and they need to target everyone who has brought an i-pod in the last year with cheap i-book deals.

Although the switiching marketing is out their, they really need to better communicate the pleasurabilty of using a Mac and not just the usability/productivity gains.

Oh yes and they need to sort out their place in the media box/server, media centre game ASAP, cos they have all the components.Don't let Microsoft get ahead here, because when convergence happens, which is kinda now, I want to be using Apple products. Don't let MS into my living room, PLEASE.

 

[m-dogg]

'ipod based' switchers

I will be one of the 'ipod based' switchers everyone is talking about in this thread. I got my windows ipod in December 2002. When am I getting a Mac? Not sure - Maybe later this year but it isn't definite. Why? Becasue my 4 year old Dell is still doing just fine and I'm not going to drop $2,000 - $3,000 just for the heck of it. That's still a lot of money to me, as I think it is to most people.

But I do like Macs and plan to get one when I upgrade (whenever that turns out to be). Would I ever have considered a Mac before owning an ipod? Absolutely not. And I think my sentiments are similar to a lot of other potential switchers.

Right now my PC works just fine to do everything I need it to do, so why bother spending all that money? For me, I plan to ditch my desktop and get a laptop to go wireless - I don't have to get a new computer. And I'm sure my current computer will still be humming along just fine when I do upgrade (becasue $2000 Dells aren't the same garbage quality their $499 PC's are...)

Basically what I'm saying is that an 'ipod based' switching campaign is a longer term process - Like maybe 5 years to see significant impact.

 

[thatwendigo]

Everybody predicted Apple to sell significantly more machines after the introduction of the G5s. Again: the market grew more than 10%, Apple sells only 5% more CPUs. And that after a few years of very bad market conditions for all computer manufacturers. You should learn how to read between the lines.

They did sell significantly more machines than they did with G4s. There has been growth of sales every quarter since then, and so they're still climbing. Get that through your head, groovebuster... In a quarter that is traditionally a fall-off, Apple is still selling more than they did last year. I can "read between the lines" just fine, especially when someone is trying to subtly insult me and failing at it.

Nobody ever said Apple has to be the market leader. Why Apple is still drawing profits even though they have a low market share I already explained.

No, one view of why Apple is still making a profit is explained.

Tell me anything by Apple the last 4 years that was "leading everyone else around"...

The iMac CRT, to name one. Four years ago, it was still being produced, and eightenn bajillion consumer products are still following in Ive's footsteps and trying to capitalize on the trail he laid out for industrial design. Firewire has become a standard in creative areas, even if USB 2.0 has picked up some business. However, USB 2.0 was seriously given a boost by *gasp* Apple's adoption of USB 1 in *gasp* the iMac CRT. The look and feel of Windows XP (and the name ) are obviously copped from Aqua, and then fed through the Microsoft-patented 'Ugly" Photoshop filters.

Shall I go on?

]There are many software titles being standard in the PC world (especially business apps) that you won't get for a Mac. And that's exactly why in a lot of cases Macs are not an option. The world is not only Photoshop and Office, it is also many other pro apps. Your argument is vaild exactly this way for Wintel boxes... What professional tasks can you not do on a Windows PC?

Did I say that there were things you couldn't do on a PC, or did I ask you for a list of important professional software that didn't run on the mac? Your attempt to change the topic is both a distraction and an admission that I'm right, since you made no effort whatsoever to show me these programs that are so necessary.

Here's a hint: I can name three, so I know that there are some applications for which you still need a PC. However, they're extremely sepcialized and very niche-market.

I don't know why you are so aggressive about it? And don't tell me that the video or music production market is cutting it. These are small niche markets where Apple is very competitive at the moment, but e.g. a company that needs visio or SAP clients on their machines couldn't care less if FCP is only available for the Mac.

I'm so aggressive because people like you make all kinds of statements, and then provide no facts to back them up. It's conjecture this, and "it stands to reason" that, but never any meat to the argument.

It gets old.

A hint for you, even though I said it already: the world isn't just Photoshop and Office.

Be still my heart! There's more out there than Photoshop and Office?

I never knew!

I didn't talk about DHM in particular. And even if he is kind of negative all the time, I think his comments hold some water. Because he acts and thinks like a typical consumer. These are the people that Apple wants to sell computers to.

No, they're obviously not. If they were the people Apple wanted to sell to, then Apple would be making cheap, useless, crap computers that sold for $500, which had inflated benchmarks and some impressive stickers and numbers all over them. What impresses the Wal-Mart crowd isn't elegance of design, but the feeling that they're buying some big, bad machine for a cheap price and putting one over on the neighbors.

DHM fits in this demographic nicely, though. I'll agree with that.

The problem is way more complex than just saying: "Apple is making profits, so what are people whining about?"

Yes, I agree. However, what DHM complains about is typically irrelevant to the mac market in general, and thus I largely dismiss his rants.

This part of your comment was totally unnecessary...

This is what some of us refer to as an "explanation," groovebuster. It tells other people why something happened, and is generally considered a good idea when a strange behavior is observed.

 

[groovebuster]

I always thought that I was a guy that was hard to get along with, but it is always refreshing to see people who are a lot worse than I am!

Your constant and childish efforst to offend me again and again with primary school techniques in order to make your self feel superior while running out of arguments really starts to get on my nerves and I just don't feel like discussing with you anymore, thatwendigo. Maybe that rings a bell, thatwendigo... Get that through your head, thatwendigo... Or maybe not, thatwendigo?

 

[thatwendigo]

I always thought that I was a guy that was hard to get along with, but it is always refreshing to see people who are a lot worse than I am!

Your constant and childish efforst to offend me again and again with primary school techniques in order to make your self feel superior while running out of arguments really starts to get on my nerves and I just don't feel like discussing with you anymore, thatwendigo. Maybe that rings a bell, thatwendigo... Get that through your head, thatwendigo... Or maybe not, thatwendigo?

Running out of argument? I'm not the one who has completely failed to address the points on offer. Anything you said that was worth addressing was touched on in my posts, and yet you sit there and accuse me of baiting and trolling you? Feeling a little defensive over losing the argument?

It's always people like you that drop down to short, terse, and completely irrelevant attacks when they run out of fuel. I could go on, if you like, on the topics that we're covering. You, on the other hand, have not answered and of my counterpoints.

Call names all you like, because it's pretty clear that you can't defend your position with anything approaching fact.

 

[eyelikeart]

before this gets out of hand & someone gets put on probation...let's can the argument...

 

[frankly]

CPU deliveries were up, but apple has dual processor offerings. Does a dual G5 PM (or X-serve) count as one or two? if it counts as two, this 5% increase in CPUs could still represent a decrease in machines sold.

afc

Apple doesn't sell processors. They sell computers. The number indicates the number of computers sold. Check out this report that ended the previous quarter for an example.

Later, Frank

 

[Dont Hurt Me]

I always thought that I was a guy that was hard to get along with, but it is always refreshing to see people who are a lot worse than I am!

Your constant and childish efforst to offend me again and again with primary school techniques in order to make your self feel superior while running out of arguments really starts to get on my nerves and I just don't feel like discussing with you anymore, thatwendigo. Maybe that rings a bell, thatwendigo... Get that through your head, thatwendigo... Or maybe not, thatwendigo?

They call them koolaiders now after the Jim Jones gang that followed the leader, but to me it reminds me of the lemmings commercial Apple did years ago but now the lemmings are the MacFanatics that cant seem to think for themselves, we get yet another year of no progress, we get sales numbers that prove Imac ..ahem Imac/Emac sales down 17%, G5 sales down also but blurred by Apple by mixing in G4 powermac sales and Xserves on top of it and the fanatics attack and attack. The truth hurts sometimes I will admit. I dont even listen to thatwendigo half the time because no matter what Apple does it is right. very cult like. Cult leaders love people that cant change or think for themself because it empowers the leaders. Dont be a lemming. Groovebuster I agree with you.

 

[frankly]

Maybe 10% do, but that makes only around 12,000 people per quarter worldwide. Very impressing!


I am naive!?!? Look in the mirror buddy...


I am sorry for you if you don't get it... and we were talking about the iPod, not the iTunes Software that is just part of the iPod package.


That's funny. I always hear people claiming that. I am a Mac user myself and I switched exactly one person in all the years: my wife. And that was a pretty hard piece of work! All the other Mac users I know were already Mac lovers before or always wanted a Mac anyway but couldn't afford one.

groovebuster

1) 10% of 807,000 is 80,700, not 12,000........
2) Yes, you are being naive. You think that not one person will consider the switch. I am saying that at least a few will. A few. How in the heck is that being naive???
3) I "get" your analogy that you are trying to make. I'm simply saying that it doesn't work. I know you thought it was clever but just thinking it doesn't make it so.......
4) I really don't care if you think it is funny. It is still in fact true that I have converted numerous people to the Mac. In fact, one of my friends that I converted has already purchased an iMac, an iPod, and a new 15" PowerBook, Airport, and AppleCare. Another friend has purchased, get ready, a 15" TiBook, two G4 dual 1GHz machines, a new 15" PowerBook, a G5 dual 2.0GHz with 4GB of RAM. I also have other friends an family that have purchased a single Mac and will never purchase a PC again. Finally, I have purchased an iMac, a G4, and a 12" PowerBook in the past 5 years.

Later, Frank

 

[frankly]

Tell me anything by Apple the last 4 years that was "leading everyone else around"...

1) Digital Music sales
2) Small hard drive based MP3 players that people actually want to pay a lot for.
3) iMovie
4) iDVD
5) Recordable DVD drives available on most models
6) 802.11a, and now 802.11g
7) Garage Band
8) Affordable powerful 1U servers
9) Integrated Bluetooth
10) iSight/iChat AV for GREAT video conferencing
11) Firewire on ALL machines
12) Expose

They led the way on all of those items. PC Makers and Software companies have followed on most but there is no questions that Apple was the leader. Apple comes up with all the greatest ideas that everyone then goes, "oh yeah, of course, we would have thought of that."

Later, Frank

 

[frankly]

Running out of argument? I'm not the one who has completely failed to address the points on offer. Anything you said that was worth addressing was touched on in my posts, and yet you sit there and accuse me of baiting and trolling you? Feeling a little defensive over losing the argument?

It's always people like you that drop down to short, terse, and completely irrelevant attacks when they run out of fuel. I could go on, if you like, on the topics that we're covering. You, on the other hand, have not answered and of my counterpoints.

Call names all you like, because it's pretty clear that you can't defend your position with anything approaching fact.

I agree.

 

[~Shard~]

They call them koolaiders now after the Jim Jones gang that followed the leader, but to me it reminds me of the lemmings commercial Apple did years ago but now the lemmings are the MacFanatics that cant seem to think for themselves, we get yet another year of no progress, we get sales numbers that prove Imac ..ahem Imac/Emac sales down 17%, G5 sales down also but blurred by Apple by mixing in G4 powermac sales and Xserves on top of it and the fanatics attack and attack. The truth hurts sometimes I will admit. I dont even listen to thatwendigo half the time because no matter what Apple does it is right. very cult like. Cult leaders love people that cant change or think for themself because it empowers the leaders. Dont be a lemming. Groovebuster I agree with you.

Let’s follow Eyelikeart’s advice, shall we?

thatwendigo and groovebuster have both been bringing up fair and objective points – I agree with statements that both of them have made. I don’t see how you can consider calling thatwendigo a MacFanatic a fair statement though – would you then be considered an “anti-MacFanatic” for constantly bringing up the low-points, weaknesses and areas of improvement for Apple?

As for calling someone’s behavior cult-like, there is no need for such insulting remarks. You only tarnish your own image and people’s opinions of you when you make such statements as opposed to addressing the topic at hand. I have seen nothing but very objective discussions going on here which, admittedly, have degraded a little – oh well, these things happen sometimes. Regardless, saying that people have the attitude of “no matter what Apple does it is right” is simply inaccurate in this case – I have not inferred that opinion when reading any of these posts – once again, very objective discussions from both sides for the most part, often citing factual, non-opinionated information. (Except for the insults as of late.)

I also find it amusing that you seem to post the exact same material all the time – I have read this whole “iMac coupled with eMac sales” and “iMac sales down” and “G5 sales down” probably 10 times from you in different posts – akin to a broken record! I might as well add them to your infamous “AMD is better than G5” and “FX5200 is crap” comments which I have read a million times in these forums! I see lengthy, comprehensive posts by the likes of thatwendigo, jade, groovebuster and frankly, accurately addressing each others comments in great detail back and forth, yet nothing of the sort from yourself, aside from saying “I agree with you” in response to these lengthy posts. Perhaps it might be wise to become a little more involved in these discussions rather than rehashing the same points, calling people MacFanatics when they are obviously not, and outright insulting people by referring to their behavior as “cult-like” and saying they can't think for themselves.

Or, perhaps you won’t listen at all, simply call me a MacFanatic even though I have made nothing but objective, rational statements in my post, and insult me by calling me blind, or some such equivalent.

 

[~Shard~]

1) Digital Music sales
2) Small hard drive based MP3 players that people actually want to pay a lot for.
3) iMovie
4) iDVD
5) Recordable DVD drives available on most models
6) 802.11a, and now 802.11g
7) Garage Band
8) Affordable powerful 1U servers
9) Integrated Bluetooth
10) iSight/iChat AV for GREAT video conferencing
11) Firewire on ALL machines
12) Expose

They led the way on all of those items. PC Makers and Software companies have followed on most but there is no questions that Apple was the leader. Apple comes up with all the greatest ideas that everyone then goes, "oh yeah, of course, we would have thought of that."

Later, Frank

Don't forget USB as well - I remember Macs having USB well before it became a standard on PCs. Oh, and the absence of a floppy drive too - although PCs still have them, how often do they really get used nowadays? In a year or so floppy drives will not be found on PCs either, so this is an example of something Apple did years ago that STILL hasn't been adopted (but inevitably will be) by the PC world. Might as well throw Expose on the list too - that good old F9 feature that is so simple yet so powerful - only a matter of time before Windows adopts that feature...

 

[frankly]

Don't forget USB as well - I remember Macs having USB well before it became a standard on PCs. Oh, and the absence of a floppy drive too - although PCs still have them, how often do they really get used nowadays? In a year or so floppy drives will not be found on PCs either, so this is an example of something Apple did years ago that STILL hasn't been adopted (but inevitably will be) by the PC world. Might as well throw Expose on the list too - that good old F9 feature that is so simple yet so powerful - only a matter of time before Windows adopts that feature...

Expose is on the list.



Later, Frank

 

[thatwendigo]

Don't forget USB as well - I remember Macs having USB well before it became a standard on PCs.

It was already in my list, actually, quite a ways up there.

Oh, and the absence of a floppy drive too - although PCs still have them, how often do they really get used nowadays? In a year or so floppy drives will not be found on PCs either, so this is an example of something Apple did years ago that STILL hasn't been adopted (but inevitably will be) by the PC world. Might as well throw Expose on the list too - that good old F9 feature that is so simple yet so powerful - only a matter of time before Windows adopts that feature...

These are all good points, and once again, I thank you for interjecting with the voice of reason, Shard.

 

[thatwendigo]

Incidentally, for those of you talking about Apple being overpriced... Go here and join the fun.

 

[rdowns]

I didn't talk about DHM in particular. And even if he is kind of negative all the time, I think his comments hold some water. Because he acts and thinks like a typical consumer. These are the people that Apple wants to sell computers to. I am a Mac user since a very long time and it was always my preferred platform, so I don't need to be convinced about the advantages. But there are people who want to see a real benefit of switching to a Mac or people who switched feel left alone in the dark after they got rid of their PC. The problem is way more complex than just saying: "Apple is making profits, so what are people whining about?"

I'll add my here, here. As a stockholder with 650 shares, I was jumping for joy over their Q2 numbers. I had expected them to be much worse. That's what hanging around here will do to you.

As a consumer, I'm pretty fed up with Apple. Forget the fact that I want and need a new computer; they just don't make what I want.

I have 3 people who repsect my opinions and are in the market for new computers. Based on my evangelizing, all are considering Macs. They are replacing Windows systems that are almost 4, 4 and 5 years old. Switching will be a considerable investment as they all need Office on top of the PC. They would all like a PC that will last 5 years and has pretty state of the art technology. I can't recommend a current Mac (G5 PMs are overkill for them) because of the lousy G4 and its Social Security collecting 167 MHz FSB. I've told them that thay should do as I am doing, wait for a G5 iMac and hope Apple doesn't release a model that comes standard with a handicapped parking permit.

 

[aswitcher]

Switching will be a considerable investment as they all need Office on top of the PC.

Which is why as of May (or now!) Apple should bundle Office X OEM as an option so we can buy it for what PC OEM packages sell it for, saving a good chunk of cash.

I've told them that thay should do as I am doing, wait for a G5 iMac and hope Apple doesn't release a model that comes standard with a handicapped parking permit.

My fear with the new ibooks/powerbooks next week, that damn bus...

 

[rdowns]

No, they're obviously not. If they were the people Apple wanted to sell to, then Apple would be making cheap, useless, crap computers that sold for $500, which had inflated benchmarks and some impressive stickers and numbers all over them. What impresses the Wal-Mart crowd isn't elegance of design, but the feeling that they're buying some big, bad machine for a cheap price and putting one over on the neighbors.

DHM fits in this demographic nicely, though. I'll agree with that.



Yes, I agree. However, what DHM complains about is typically irrelevant to the mac market in general, and thus I largely dismiss his rants.

Take this for what it's worth but I find you attitude to be smug and arrogant. The high school debating techniques are as old the the G4 architecture.

 

[~Shard~]

Expose is on the list.



Later, Frank

Apologies - I could have sworn I didn't see it there initially. Or did you just add it to the end of the list via an edit afterwards just to play with my mind, you sneaky guy!

 

[rdowns]

Oh, and the absence of a floppy drive too - although PCs still have them, how often do they really get used nowadays? In a year or so floppy drives will not be found on PCs either, so this is an example of something Apple did years ago that STILL hasn't been adopted (but inevitably will be) by the PC world.

My web developer (Windows guy) came to me yesterday and handed me a floppy disk. No s**t, first time I've handled one in probably 3 years or more. He was giving me a small file so I can update at will an area of my companies web site for promotions or news. I asked him what I was supposed to do with it, had no idea my Dell had a floppy drive. Guess you had to be there.

 

[Dont Hurt Me]

I'll add my here, here. As a stockholder with 650 shares, I was jumping for joy over their Q2 numbers. I had expected them to be much worse. That's what hanging around here will do to you.

As a consumer, I'm pretty fed up with Apple. Forget the fact that I want and need a new computer; they just don't make what I want.

I have 3 people who repsect my opinions and are in the market for new computers. Based on my evangelizing, all are considering Macs. They are replacing Windows systems that are almost 4, 4 and 5 years old. Switching will be a considerable investment as they all need Office on top of the PC. They would all like a PC that will last 5 years and has pretty state of the art technology. I can't recommend a current Mac (G5 PMs are overkill for them) because of the lousy G4 and its Social Security collecting 167 MHz FSB. I've told them that thay should do as I am doing, wait for a G5 iMac and hope Apple doesn't release a model that comes standard with a handicapped parking permit.

Pretty good but you know it will.

 

[Frohickey]

My web developer (Windows guy) came to me yesterday and handed me a floppy disk. No s**t, first time I've handled one in probably 3 years or more. He was giving me a small file so I can update at will an area of my companies web site for promotions or news. I asked him what I was supposed to do with it, had no idea my Dell had a floppy drive. Guess you had to be there.

Tell your web developer to get a USB memory stick. Those are as small as keychain fobs and you can have 256MB worth on you, all the time.

They come in smaller sizes at cheaper prices too. And they are very useful.

 

[groovebuster]

Tell your web developer to get a USB memory stick. Those are as small as keychain fobs and you can have 256MB worth on you, all the time.

They come in smaller sizes at cheaper prices too. And they are very useful.

But maybe he doesn't need one normally. I was in the same situation before. Exchanging files in the kB range is very seldom these days. You e-mail stuff like that and larger collections of data go onto a CD-R anyway right away. But in this case the guy had probably 150kB of data and he couldn't or didn't want to e-mail it. His PC still has a floppy disk drive and like everybody (even I still have a box of 3.5" floppies somewhere that I kept for ermergency) he had some floppies still somewhere in his drawer. From his understanding most of the PCs still have floppy disk drives, so he put the stuff on a floppy disk.

A memory stick is probably overkill for this guy, since he just doesn't need it. I was evaluating if an USB memory stick would be necessary for me and I found out, that I would hardly ever use it because of the reasons described above. For large amounts of data (normally in the GB range) I have external HDs or use DVD-Rs. For backups or file transfer in the mid-range (between 50 and 700MBs) I am using CD-Rs and everything up to 50MBs goes over IP. The only reason to shell out the money would be the toy factor. But that kind of money I rather spend for something more useful.

@rdowns:
Actually I am curious why he didn't e-mail the files when they were that small?

groovebuster