hopefully, they will allow us to tone down the dock, which in its current 10.5.0 incarnation is just visual overload. and I don't want to hack or modify the OS to do it.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Apple Seeds Mac OS X 10.5.1 9B13
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
iChat can send SMS now. So it hasn't left completely and it hasn't just been given to the iPhone.
Realy i did not know that, but i have a lot of contacts that are in my adressbook but not in my ichat buddy list, basicly because most people i know use msn instead of ichat. So the functionality has not improved.
I'll have to look into this to see if this might work in the same way as it did with adressbook, but thanks for pointing it out .
iChat can send SMS now. So it hasn't left completely and it hasn't just been given to the iPhone.
Well, it kinda has - The SMS support in iChat is US only, and doesnt work on some networks even there.. I'm in the UK.
The SMS functionality in Addressbook worked everywhere regardless of network.. All you needed was bluetooth - the phone did the work.
The SMS functionality in iChat isn't a new home for the old feature, it's a different take on it - Pretty much every "real" IM client has supported SMS messaging for ages.. The removal from Addressbook is a seperate issue and a bit annoying for people who used it. It should be in *both* places now really.
Leopard has vanquished my disappearing airport connection that I've been having since 10.4.7. I made numerous posts about my airport signal blanking out and my network disappearing from the list, requiring a hard reset to get it back again.
The microwave was the culprit, and even interference robustness couldn't stop it. Microwave goes on, network disappears on core duo iMac running Tiger.
Now that I'm running Leopard, the microwave only slows the connection. My home network never disappears now! Thanks Apple for finally fixing this problem!
Other than a sharing pane bug, slow permission checking, and some .mac shenanigans, Leopard has been solid for me after a clean install.
The microwave was the culprit, and even interference robustness couldn't stop it. Microwave goes on, network disappears on core duo iMac running Tiger.
Now that I'm running Leopard, the microwave only slows the connection. My home network never disappears now! Thanks Apple for finally fixing this problem!
Other than a sharing pane bug, slow permission checking, and some .mac shenanigans, Leopard has been solid for me after a clean install.
Apart from the "data underrun" error that I got after updating QT and iTunes (and which seems to be totally solved after resetting the SMU), the "long" repair permissions thing and the single blue screen after installing, pretty much EVERYTHING else works fine and much snappier than Tiger, especially Safari, Mail and Finder.
I am actually impressed with how well Leopard works with existing software...NONE of my apps had to be reinstalled or updated. So much for comparisons with Vista...
I hate to point this out, but the 10.5 we are using now for all intents and purposes, is still pre GM-beta-by a seed or two.
We expect this type of stuff from MS OS's-which are not only perpetually 'in beta' but are probably also still and always will be in an early developer seed-which nevertheless is sold to the masses retail.
Would you buy and drive an automobile or a TV set that had stacks of problems, or had to go back for service fixes once a month?
Aside from some of the things that just dont work, the system has an unstable or unfinished feeling about it..
And I really hate to take from 5 to 10 minutes to repair permissions FROM THE BOOT DISK, and then from a fresh install DU on top of that.
In Tiger it was 10-15 SECONDS...
I wonder about the yellow dialog box that sometime appears when i shut down or reboot, that says something like: "Hold on! we need to refill the system cache before we can proceed" then it takes up to 15 seconds to let go of me. Or Apple telling us that when an obscure warning appears in DU- to 'just ignore it' WTF?!
I also wonder at this late date, why, when we have hundreds of fonts on our system, we cannot yet choose our own system fonts without using SILK, like in OS 9?
You spend $129-or from $1200 to $5000 on something, then you have the right to expect it to work properly, as advertised.
Not 'sorta OK' , or 'pretty much OK' or '95% finished' -or "Not quite finished but we will sell it to ya-and worry about making it work at a higher level near to what we advertised, later on, Bub!"
I realize software is a nebulous subject, and is mostly a work in progress in terms of "finished" but surely they can release a Leopard that is a lot more finished and much less buggy and problematic than what we own now.
APPLE prides itself on QUALITY.
Its NOT asking too much to get it.
We expect this type of stuff from MS OS's-which are not only perpetually 'in beta' but are probably also still and always will be in an early developer seed-which nevertheless is sold to the masses retail.
Would you buy and drive an automobile or a TV set that had stacks of problems, or had to go back for service fixes once a month?
Aside from some of the things that just dont work, the system has an unstable or unfinished feeling about it..
And I really hate to take from 5 to 10 minutes to repair permissions FROM THE BOOT DISK, and then from a fresh install DU on top of that.
In Tiger it was 10-15 SECONDS...
I wonder about the yellow dialog box that sometime appears when i shut down or reboot, that says something like: "Hold on! we need to refill the system cache before we can proceed" then it takes up to 15 seconds to let go of me. Or Apple telling us that when an obscure warning appears in DU- to 'just ignore it' WTF?!
I also wonder at this late date, why, when we have hundreds of fonts on our system, we cannot yet choose our own system fonts without using SILK, like in OS 9?
You spend $129-or from $1200 to $5000 on something, then you have the right to expect it to work properly, as advertised.
Not 'sorta OK' , or 'pretty much OK' or '95% finished' -or "Not quite finished but we will sell it to ya-and worry about making it work at a higher level near to what we advertised, later on, Bub!"
I realize software is a nebulous subject, and is mostly a work in progress in terms of "finished" but surely they can release a Leopard that is a lot more finished and much less buggy and problematic than what we own now.
APPLE prides itself on QUALITY.
Its NOT asking too much to get it.
Okay, I'm curious -- why are people focusing so much on a long time to repair permissions?
What, honestly, does repair permissions do for you in Leopard, or in Tiger for that matter?
I think I repaired permissions once in Tiger, about 3 months ago, on both my Intel and PPC systems out of curiosity and it found nothing.
10 minutes to repair permissions isn't a bug because frankly the function itself IS USELESS! The system installs with the correct permissions already.
It reminds me of the fighter jets that had buttons on either side of the dashboard to fix a flat spin -- they weren't actually hooked up to anything, their sole purpose was to make the pilot feel like he was doing something while the real fix was to get him to take his hands off the control stick and let the computer sort it out.
Repairing permissions makes your system feel better because your feel like you've done something. Apple probably stuck a "sleep 600" in their code figuring that the people that like to do this will feel its even more effective when it takes longer.
/RANT
What, honestly, does repair permissions do for you in Leopard, or in Tiger for that matter?
I think I repaired permissions once in Tiger, about 3 months ago, on both my Intel and PPC systems out of curiosity and it found nothing.
10 minutes to repair permissions isn't a bug because frankly the function itself IS USELESS! The system installs with the correct permissions already.
It reminds me of the fighter jets that had buttons on either side of the dashboard to fix a flat spin -- they weren't actually hooked up to anything, their sole purpose was to make the pilot feel like he was doing something while the real fix was to get him to take his hands off the control stick and let the computer sort it out.
Repairing permissions makes your system feel better because your feel like you've done something. Apple probably stuck a "sleep 600" in their code figuring that the people that like to do this will feel its even more effective when it takes longer.
/RANT
OS Vista
From all the problems I've heard about, and all the programs that won't run, it looks as if Leopard is stacking up to be Apple's answer to Vista. Sorry Leopard, I'll stay with Tiger. It works on G4s and G5s, it accesses Airport and it runs Adobe programs, none of which Leopard can do.
From all the problems I've heard about, and all the programs that won't run, it looks as if Leopard is stacking up to be Apple's answer to Vista. Sorry Leopard, I'll stay with Tiger. It works on G4s and G5s, it accesses Airport and it runs Adobe programs, none of which Leopard can do.
1 - Leopard works with G5s; I have one.
2 - It accesses Airport;
3 - It runs Adobe programs.
Apart from the glitches identified in this thread by some users (myself included), what the hell are you talking about? Do you really want to compare it with Vista?
Again: NONE of my 162 applications had to be reinstalled or updated. NONE. Is this Vista-redux? I don't frickin' think so.
Yea I have it on my PowerBook G4 so you probably have no idea what you are talking about. I have it on a Mac Pro too and I installed it via upgrade even. No issues what so ever. It was the easiest most seamless upgrade I've ever had to perform. I really think half the people complaining don't really have issues, they are just jealous vista users repeating issues that really only a very very very small minority have. Remember for every pissed off forum post, there are a good 10 or 20 that have nothing to say cause Leopard is pretty solid for them.
Ugh, why do so many people on both side of the fence think their experience (or even what they read) is in some way illustrative of a trend?
A lot of people are having issues. A lot of people AREN'T having issues - there's no reason to think people are just stirring things up *or* being "Apple apologists".. I'm on both sides of the fence - installed on 2 intel macs perfectly, had various issues on my G5, but its workable. They'll fix everything up anyway I suspect.
The guys who are waiting before upgrading aren't being dumb - I wouldn't choose to wait myself but I can understand why they are.. The issues talked about are all real and they've really messed with a lot of people.
Tim: I'm running Photoshop on my G5 in Leopard right now. Weird!
A lot of people are having issues. A lot of people AREN'T having issues - there's no reason to think people are just stirring things up *or* being "Apple apologists".. I'm on both sides of the fence - installed on 2 intel macs perfectly, had various issues on my G5, but its workable. They'll fix everything up anyway I suspect.
The guys who are waiting before upgrading aren't being dumb - I wouldn't choose to wait myself but I can understand why they are.. The issues talked about are all real and they've really messed with a lot of people.
Tim: I'm running Photoshop on my G5 in Leopard right now. Weird!
Problems with Leopard are serious
1. Mail loses RSS feeds, then they reappear.
2. Sync of address book destroyed many entries in my address book (and generated spurious ones)
3. iCal not syncing -- too many conflicts (there really are none)
4. Some third party apps not working -- Leopard fails to maintain backward compatibility.
5. Sync of Keychain detecting many modifications (over 5%)
6. Safari is still not as robust as Firefox -- either cannot handle certain sites functionally, or the display is inaccurate. This is a problem independent of OS.
a. Oracle's E-Business Suite is not handled by Safari -- Firefox can handle
7. Safari popup blocker functionality needs to be parameterized by URL (to allow popups from certain sites, not allow from others). This has been a standard feature of other browsers for a couple of years now -- but not Safari!
8. Oracle JDeveloper (a Java IDE) does not work properly under Tiger or Leopard (likely the embedded application server is not executing correctly).
Some of the above problems are long standing, especially with Java and Safari and I wonder whether Apple really cares enough to fix functional issues, but prefers to place the efforts on cool new stuff first.
The problems with Leopard can be caused by many things.
One, it was rushed to meet the October deadline in spite of known and serious problems, and over-reliance on a over-forgiving public.
Two, the internal or third party testers did not find the problems or report them to Apple. Perhaps the latter failure, if it occurred, is partly to blame on overconfidence in Apple's quality. If that is the case, those responsible for finding and reporting problems did not do their jobs.
The only way to ensure that Apple maintain the quality of their products, for which I am usually quite satisfied, is to not let them off the hook when they fail to meet reasonable quality expectations. Quality products is simply hard work, and Apple needs to allow and support the maintenance of that quality.
Leopard 10.5 does not meet the standards of a GM.
1. Mail loses RSS feeds, then they reappear.
2. Sync of address book destroyed many entries in my address book (and generated spurious ones)
3. iCal not syncing -- too many conflicts (there really are none)
4. Some third party apps not working -- Leopard fails to maintain backward compatibility.
5. Sync of Keychain detecting many modifications (over 5%)
6. Safari is still not as robust as Firefox -- either cannot handle certain sites functionally, or the display is inaccurate. This is a problem independent of OS.
a. Oracle's E-Business Suite is not handled by Safari -- Firefox can handle
7. Safari popup blocker functionality needs to be parameterized by URL (to allow popups from certain sites, not allow from others). This has been a standard feature of other browsers for a couple of years now -- but not Safari!
8. Oracle JDeveloper (a Java IDE) does not work properly under Tiger or Leopard (likely the embedded application server is not executing correctly).
Some of the above problems are long standing, especially with Java and Safari and I wonder whether Apple really cares enough to fix functional issues, but prefers to place the efforts on cool new stuff first.
The problems with Leopard can be caused by many things.
One, it was rushed to meet the October deadline in spite of known and serious problems, and over-reliance on a over-forgiving public.
Two, the internal or third party testers did not find the problems or report them to Apple. Perhaps the latter failure, if it occurred, is partly to blame on overconfidence in Apple's quality. If that is the case, those responsible for finding and reporting problems did not do their jobs.
The only way to ensure that Apple maintain the quality of their products, for which I am usually quite satisfied, is to not let them off the hook when they fail to meet reasonable quality expectations. Quality products is simply hard work, and Apple needs to allow and support the maintenance of that quality.
Leopard 10.5 does not meet the standards of a GM.
This is not Apple's fault - Oracle is only certified to run on IE, Firefox, Netscape, and maybe some others. Safari is not a supported browser.
There's a Mac OS X edition of JDeveloper that works under Tiger. I haven't tried on Leopard, but I'm sure it's fine. I find it strange that you think it doesn't work at all under OSX, because the development team for JDev develops on OSX.
This is good, sounds like they're going to take this opportunity to fix at least most of the bugs currently being reported. As a result it seems like those who are waiting for 10.5.1 will noticeably benefit, good stuff
As expected, Apple has started seeding Mac OS 10.5.1 to developers for testing. The latest seed carries a build number of 9B13 and offers a number of fixes.
Apple details a number of issues addressed in the seed. Specifically, there have been fixes to Mail Sync, Spotlight Index, Disk Management, Text Drawing, iCal and CalDAV syncing, Keychain login, Read-Only Issue with SMB, AirPort 802.1X, Application Firewall, To-Do Notes, and Smart Mailboxes.
Apple released Mac OS X Leopard on October 26th and sold over 2 million copies in the first weekend. There have been some vocal complaints about bugs in the first version of Mac OS X 10.5.
Article Link
As I Said
Oracle is not certified under Safari because Safari cannot handle the web pages which EBS produces. It's not Oracle's responsibility to fix Safari; that's Apple's job. And since Firefox on Tiger and Leopard does seem to work, it's Safari's problem only. Oracle shouldn't have to write special renderers for Safari -- it either handles html, javascript and css properly or it does not. And Safari does NOT; Firefox on OSX does.
As for JDeveloper, I did not say or imply that JDeveloper does not work under OSX. Oracle does supply a .dmg for JDeveloper under OSX and the installation works fine. JDeveloper seems to work for the most part. Because JDeveloper and the embedded application server are written in Java, these components should work the same on any platform. However, if one executes the Oracle supplied SRDEMO tutorial, one finds that some of web page graphics fail to appear on some pages, likely due to the application server's mishandling of image paths. No problem under Windows.
Also, under a certain sequence of page request orders, the SRDemo application under OSX is unable to find database records, which exist and which are appropriately displayed under Windows, running any one of several version of Java 1.5.
The JDeveloper issue can be an Oracle problem, if Oracle has written Windows-specific code in Java, and not an Apple problem, but the "bugs" do render use of JDeveloper on OSX unreliable. I have not run JDeveloper under Linux, so I don't know if this problem exists on that platform.
Oracle is not certified under Safari because Safari cannot handle the web pages which EBS produces. It's not Oracle's responsibility to fix Safari; that's Apple's job. And since Firefox on Tiger and Leopard does seem to work, it's Safari's problem only. Oracle shouldn't have to write special renderers for Safari -- it either handles html, javascript and css properly or it does not. And Safari does NOT; Firefox on OSX does.
As for JDeveloper, I did not say or imply that JDeveloper does not work under OSX. Oracle does supply a .dmg for JDeveloper under OSX and the installation works fine. JDeveloper seems to work for the most part. Because JDeveloper and the embedded application server are written in Java, these components should work the same on any platform. However, if one executes the Oracle supplied SRDEMO tutorial, one finds that some of web page graphics fail to appear on some pages, likely due to the application server's mishandling of image paths. No problem under Windows.
Also, under a certain sequence of page request orders, the SRDemo application under OSX is unable to find database records, which exist and which are appropriately displayed under Windows, running any one of several version of Java 1.5.
The JDeveloper issue can be an Oracle problem, if Oracle has written Windows-specific code in Java, and not an Apple problem, but the "bugs" do render use of JDeveloper on OSX unreliable. I have not run JDeveloper under Linux, so I don't know if this problem exists on that platform.
How is that you list this under Leopard having serious problems then say it works with Firefox? Wow. What a serious problem with Leopard. And it is pretty ridiculous to say suggest they don't code to work with browsers as if they just make their code using standards and low and behold IE works with it. Please spare us.
Give me a break!
Safari 3.0 was beta until released with Leopard. Apple made some improvements in the speed and added some functionality, however, they did not correct known problems (known to me, and known to them for several years, as I send them bug reports whenever I find a site that Safari does not handle, and especially when Firefox does support the site under any version of Mac OSX).
Apple advertises Safari as being the best, most compatible browser out there, and therefore it needs to be. If Firefox works under OSX then so should Safari. The issue of sites building for IE only is an issue as it reflects general or purposeful ignorance of developers that there is a world besides Microsoft, and the use of media files for which there are no browser plugins for other than Microsoft products is unforgivable. There are sites such as Solution Beacon which specifically check that the browser is running under Windows OS and forbids other OSes from access to their recorded webinar archives.
But there is no excuse for Apple continuing to push a browser with less compatibility than Firefox. Firefox is open source, meaning Apple developers can learn how to correct the problems Safari has by looking at code that works.
The ability to handle MS-centric web sites is out of Apple's control, and any OSX browser will be any the same position.
The quality of Apple's hardware and OS and most software written by Apple and third parties are otherwise quite impressive. Safari sticks out as a long-term aberration which needs to be corrected, without apologists excusing them.
Safari 3.0 was beta until released with Leopard. Apple made some improvements in the speed and added some functionality, however, they did not correct known problems (known to me, and known to them for several years, as I send them bug reports whenever I find a site that Safari does not handle, and especially when Firefox does support the site under any version of Mac OSX).
Apple advertises Safari as being the best, most compatible browser out there, and therefore it needs to be. If Firefox works under OSX then so should Safari. The issue of sites building for IE only is an issue as it reflects general or purposeful ignorance of developers that there is a world besides Microsoft, and the use of media files for which there are no browser plugins for other than Microsoft products is unforgivable. There are sites such as Solution Beacon which specifically check that the browser is running under Windows OS and forbids other OSes from access to their recorded webinar archives.
But there is no excuse for Apple continuing to push a browser with less compatibility than Firefox. Firefox is open source, meaning Apple developers can learn how to correct the problems Safari has by looking at code that works.
The ability to handle MS-centric web sites is out of Apple's control, and any OSX browser will be any the same position.
The quality of Apple's hardware and OS and most software written by Apple and third parties are otherwise quite impressive. Safari sticks out as a long-term aberration which needs to be corrected, without apologists excusing them.
Of the three main browsers, Safari is the youngest and I do give it a break. It is quite impressive as it develops but by no means perfect. As standardization progresses hopefully there will no longer be the option/need to improvise in browser behavior. But I think you miss my point. Safari isn't Leopard. Safari 3 is not Leopard only as it will be released for Tiger with 10.4.11. The serious problem you listed is a Safari problem or a problem with Oracle, not Leopard. My objection to your post is that you title it serious problems with Leopard and your last 4 points are not Leopard or Leopard only.
Boy, I've said it a lot of times but I really hope they fix the Airport Disk issue.
The performance is bloody awful - sometimes it'll take 20mins to transfer a 100MB file. On a good day, it'll do that in about a minute.
My flat mates who use PC's get constant speeds. They can also stream video off the Airport Disk and get smooth playback - in Leopard I have to copy it to my desktop because I get stutters every minute or so.
The performance is bloody awful - sometimes it'll take 20mins to transfer a 100MB file. On a good day, it'll do that in about a minute.
My flat mates who use PC's get constant speeds. They can also stream video off the Airport Disk and get smooth playback - in Leopard I have to copy it to my desktop because I get stutters every minute or so.
Apple needs to fix whatever the hell is causing Safari to crash. It has happened four times since last night, I can't deal with this trying to do research when I have a lot of windows opened in different spaces, THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE APPLE!
I hate to point this out but you don't really know what you're talking about.
The worst thing about Leopard so far is the removal of several features at the last second like Airdisk support etc.
The feature set as delivered is clearly no more buggy than 10.4 when it came out. It is also a completely different kettle of fish than something like Vista which was rushed to market to forestall a financial disaster based on promised release dates in "assurance" contracts that MS made with their biggest customers.
Vista can easily (and rightfully), be labelled with the "beta" moniker, but Leopard is a very stable GM overall and just needs the usual bug fixes.
This is just stupid.
I am posting this from a G4 "Quicksilver" tower. It was bought 6 years ago in July 2001 and has had a hard drive upgrade and a bit more memory added in the interim. It runs Leopard great and seems (subjectively) faster although I know it is probably not in actuality.
It still has the stock video card so the graphic transitions in Leopard can be jerky or pause sometimes, but if I upgraded the card (roughly 50 bucks), I could run Leopard on this machine for years yet.