Apple Seeds Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard) Build 9A500n

[pengu]

If it is one window running, the close button needs t quit the dam application, and not hide it. If I wanted to hide one window, I would minimize it. Now if I had two windows up, closing one window only makes sense, don't minimize the ****ing window. I didn't ask to minimize to dock, I asked for a closing of the window. I think Apple screwed up there.

um no, i think you failed miserably at english. you must have, because you CLEARLY can't comprehend the difference between "close", "hide" and "minimize"

the close button in NO WAY AT ALL minimizes or hides a window. it closes it. if you dont want the application running, go to AppMenu->Quit, or hit Cmd-Q or right-click the dock icon and choose Quit.

The advantage to being able to leave an app running with no active windows far outshines your lack of understanding regarding the concept.

 

[bousozoku]

...
This product has not been released yet. All features mentioned above are subject to change

Installation Requirements
Minimum MAC Processor Supported PowerPC G5
Minimum MAC HD Space Required 3 GB
Additional Processor Information PowerPC G3, G4 or G5 processor
Optical Drive Type Required DVD
Packaging
Package Type Retail
Type of Distribution Media DVD
Licensing
License Type Complete Package
Program Pools Systems
Number Of Users 1
Additional Information
Package Contents Mac OS X v10.5 Leopard - Single User

Why does the networking hardware (MAC) require a processor or hard drive space?

Be more careful when creating fakes!

 

[Krevnik]

The concept isn't logical yet. If I am working in Max, or Reason, and I need to run to Safari to get a reference picture set, or some samples, and have just ONE window of safari up, and I'm finished getting whatever, and I close with the close button, I don't want an instance of an open Safari running. If it is one window running, the close button needs t quit the dam application, and not hide it. If I wanted to hide one window, I would minimize it. Now if I had two windows up, closing one window only makes sense, don't minimize the ****ing window. I didn't ask to minimize to dock, I asked for a closing of the window. I think Apple screwed up there.

Not to disqualify your opinion or anything. When you close the last window, you didn't minimize the app to the dock, you closed the last window. This is an old behavior from pre-X where windows were windows, apps were apps. Apps had windows, but the two were not one and the same. In MacOS 9 though, you had an application menu to switch between open apps, and that menu got folded into the Dock with X.

In Windows, an app and window are one and the same. You can spawn new windows, but they are always new instances of the app, or a sub-window.

The two concepts are different. In OS X, apps own windows. In Windows, the app is the window. Neither one in inhierantly superior than the other, but they are different. A document-based app like Safari, Word, TextEdit, etc... all feel to /me/ like they work better when the app isn't closed when I close the last document. It makes it faster for me to create a new one without having to relaunch the freaking app just because I closed the last one (like I have to do with notepad and other similar Windows apps). With how virtual memory and everything else works... an app with nothing being displayed, and nothing to do should be pulling 0% CPU, and all its RAM pages will get swapped out to disk if Max or Reason needs the RAM. These days, it doesn't always make sense to be constantly opening and closing apps.

 

[Krevnik]

Thats really weird because I have the exact same hardware as you and I have no problems with Safari.

you sure you don't have a pirated version of Leopard?

Don't worry, I have seen the exact same behavior of Safari crashing, and it does depend on how you use Safari. Not sure what pirated copies have to do with Safari crashing.

I haven't seen WoW crash though, then again, I haven't tried on 9A499.

 

[Broken Friday]

Wow, you sound like a true fangirl don't you? You say I failed in english, yet you don't have the education to capitalize your leading character in your sentences? Not only that, but how can someone fail "at" english? I never knew "english" was a test or course in which humans had to take.

The close button closes the current window, and hides it from the OS's interface. Then once you go into your dock and click on the same application with the black arrow, the OS summons the same window back into the interface, and you now see it.

Secondly mister sour tart pants, if a user such as my self is working in a heavy environment such as using Maya, or Pro Tools, Photoshop CS3, and need to use Safari for a second, and are finished and is wanting to get back to our previous application, we would like to click the close button, and the application should close if there is one window open. That's common sense, having the application run only uses resource space that could be free.

"AppMenu->Quit, or hit Cmd-Q or right-click the dock icon and choose Quit" This is unnecessary to close one application with one window open. A simple click to the close button should do the trick, now if I had say two windows of Safari open, the close button should work in a single operation, not multiple for both windows.

You must have failed at life. That's what your kids will be telling you.

um no, i think you failed miserably at english. you must have, because you CLEARLY can't comprehend the difference between "close", "hide" and "minimize"

the close button in NO WAY AT ALL minimizes or hides a window. it closes it. if you dont want the application running, go to AppMenu->Quit, or hit Cmd-Q or right-click the dock icon and choose Quit.

The advantage to being able to leave an app running with no active windows far outshines your lack of understanding regarding the concept.

 

[janitorC7]

Hmm... The blue lights are kinda hard to see with all the icons' reflections...

This guys menu bar transparency died, its showing the skeleton of the shape, but lost the opacity, this is a bug that leopard Dev. users see when they attach their computer to an external monitor without restarting (in some cases, not all)

 

[pengu]

I never knew "english" was a test or course in which humans had to take.

woah. hang on. slow down. you were never taught english? never took any english tests? did you go to school, AT ALL?

The close button closes the current window, and hides it from the OS's interface. Then once you go into your dock and click on the same application with the black arrow, the OS summons the same window back into the interface, and you now see it.

uh. no. here is a simple test:
open safari
navigate to a page
close the window
click on the safari icon. holy cow, its NOT THE SAME WINDOW.

Secondly mister sour tart pants, if a user such as my self is working in a heavy environment such as using Maya, or Pro Tools, Photoshop CS3, and need to use Safari for a second, and are finished and is wanting to get back to our previous application, we would like to click the close button, and the application should close if there is one window open. That's common sense, having the application run only uses resource space that could be free.

um no. as has been stated, with the current performance of the VM system in OSX, it is usually more efficient to leave the application loaded in memory.

"AppMenu->Quit, or hit Cmd-Q or right-click the dock icon and choose Quit" This is unnecessary to close one application with one window open. A simple click to the close button should do the trick, now if I had say two windows of Safari open, the close button should work in a single operation, not multiple for both windows.

right, so you want Apple to adopt a ridiculous behaviour where the same button does vastly different things at different times? i think you need to go back to windows.

You must have failed at life. That's what your kids will be telling you.

wow you're creative.

 

[decksnap]

...a really backwards concept...

That was sad. If you want to quit an app, quit the app. If you want to close a window, close the window.

 

[furcalchick]

I think most OS X users would be really upset about this change (which would never happen). Being able to have a program run without an open window is a feature that is so obvious, it boggles my mind that all OS's don't have it. I use it constantly for Mail, NetNewsWire, Transmission, and several others. To take it away would mean one less option.

some programs, like iphoto, close when you click the x button on the window. same for photo booth (and others, just listing the major ones people would be most familiar with).

 

[Karvel]

As a not-so-powerful user, I do NOT like the differing behavior between:

Clicking the close button in Calculator/System Preferences/Dictionary and it closing the whole application
OR
Clicking the close button in Safari and it simply closing just the window

It seems that the first behavior only occurs when there is no "potential" for other windows to be opened (like in Dictionary, System Preferences), and that the other behavior occurs when there IS the potential for other window to be open (like multiple windows in Safari, multiple viewers in iTunes etc.). It was HELLA confusing when I first got Mac OS X I can tell ya!

 

[theman]

The green button sizes the window at the ideal size, based on the website you are viewing, or whatever the ideal size for the window you are working in is. This is central to the window system OS X utilizes. So, in a sense, the green button does know how big you [should] want your window. If you want it filling the screen, you should be able to drag it to that size and then the green button should toggle between that and ideal size. I would disagree that the purpose of a large monitor is run every window as large as possible.

THIS is what I am talking about with the green button. It is just annoying to me. However, not annoying enough to get me to go back to windoze.

 

[bousozoku]

THIS is what I am talking about with the green button. It is just annoying to me. However, not annoying enough to get me to go back to windoze.

There were several things about the zoom button in that rant. What specifically, other than the fact that it isn't the maximize button from Windows, do you not like?

The zoom box from 1984 and the zoom button from 1999 or thereabouts tries to anticipate proper sizing to allow drag and drop operation with the desktop and other applications.

Yes, Finder and other applications occasionally mess up and create windows that end up behind the Dock. Those applications need to be fixed.

 

[aLoC]

The MOSX window buttons behavior is just awful.

- The red one you never know if it's going to close the window or quit the app.
- The green one changes the size but that's about all you can say. Whether it goes bigger or smaller or no change is just a lottery.

And the dock:
- When you click an app icon in the dock, what will happen? If there is a minimized window will it deminimize? Not always. Will it open a new blank window if there is none? Not always.
- When a window is minimized can you rely on the thumbnail window updating or do you have to deminimize it to check progress bars etc.
Again depends on the app.

Suggestions:
- Make the green button a simple, predictable maximize button
- Make the menu bar do an animated transition when you switch from app to app (such as ticker text), so that if the app doesn't have any windows it's clearer that you have in fact changed key app. Or maybe there could be a spotlight shining up from under the dock that slides from app to app to show the key (active) app. Or the key app could just have a glow.

 

[Stadsport]

So far it seems pretty similar to 9A499. Wifi status bar still "cpu leaks" and hogs 200cpu. I'll try WEP tomorrow at school. A2DP seems a little more solid. Whole OS seems a lot more responsive and solid.

 

[curmi]

The MOSX window buttons behavior is just awful.

- The red one you never know if it's going to close the window or quit the app.
- The green one changes the size but that's about all you can say. Whether it goes bigger or smaller or no change is just a lottery.

And the dock:
- When you click an app icon in the dock, what will happen? If there is a minimized window will it deminimize? Not always. Will it open a new blank window if there is none? Not always.
- When a window is minimized can you rely on the thumbnail window updating or do you have to deminimize it to check progress bars etc.
Again depends on the app.

Suggestions:
- Make the green button a simple, predictable maximize button
- Make the menu bar do an animated transition when you switch from app to app (such as ticker text), so that if the app doesn't have any windows it's clearer that you have in fact changed key app. Or maybe there could be a spotlight shining up from under the dock that slides from app to app to show the key (active) app. Or the key app could just have a glow.

aLoC has made some very well considered and sensible suggestions here.

I am a long time Mac user, and I happen to like the Zoom button and the way it works. However, you can't tell what state you are currently in because it always shows "+" no matter what. I agree that this is confusing. "+" suggests getting bigger - but that isn't what it always means.

To be honest, "-" suggests doing the opposite of "+", so it is actually a poor choice of button for minimise. It really should point down to the dock - though that's confusing when your dock isn't at the bottom.

Close is also confusing - given that it sometimes quits an application. Yes, it makes sense to those who know what is going on. But to most people it doesn't. And anyone coming from Windows is confused, and almost every Window user is going to just close Windows expecting apps to quit - and they still do it after you tell them that isn't the way it works because they are so used to it.

If an app doesn't have a window, it almost needs to show something when you switch to it - like it greys out the whole screen so you know you are in an app without a window.

None of this is going to change any time soon though. Not in Leopard anyway. If anyone is expecting new or changed features in Leopard at this stage, you are dreaming. We'll be lucky to get those awful blue lights on the dock fixed by October...

 

[Rhuantavan]

aLoC has made some very well considered and sensible suggestions here.

I am a long time Mac user, and I happen to like the Zoom button and the way it works. However, you can't tell what state you are currently in because it always shows "+" no matter what. I agree that this is confusing. "+" suggests getting bigger - but that isn't what it always means.

To be honest, "-" suggests doing the opposite of "+", so it is actually a poor choice of button for minimise. It really should point down to the dock - though that's confusing when your dock isn't at the bottom.

Close is also confusing - given that it sometimes quits an application. Yes, it makes sense to those who know what is going on. But to most people it doesn't. And anyone coming from Windows is confused, and almost every Window user is going to just close Windows expecting apps to quit - and they still do it after you tell them that isn't the way it works because they are so used to it.

If an app doesn't have a window, it almost needs to show something when you switch to it - like it greys out the whole screen so you know you are in an app without a window.

None of this is going to change any time soon though. Not in Leopard anyway. If anyone is expecting new or changed features in Leopard at this stage, you are dreaming. We'll be lucky to get those awful blue lights on the dock fixed by October...

I completely agree with you here... especially with the close button behaviour. I still don't get what's the criteria that determines if it is ok to close the app or just the window of an app when clicking the X. If you ask me, the close button should always close the window and never the app. To close the app, just use the Cmd-Q combo.

 

[fisha]

Close is also confusing - given that it sometimes quits an application. Yes, it makes sense to those who know what is going on. But to most people it doesn't. And anyone coming from Windows is confused, and almost every Window user is going to just close Windows expecting apps to quit - and they still do it after you tell them that isn't the way it works because they are so used to it.

Your right, most windows users would certainly expect the app to quit when the last window of that app is closed. But i guess thats a fundamental difference between the way the UI displays an app in an overall sense.

OSX apps being titled in the menu bar with child windows

Windows have apps titled as a windowed area and within that child windows.

 

[thewhitehart]

Why bother discussing whether the red button should close a window or close an app? Did anyone really think this was going to change in Leopard?

The current implementation is not going to change. Ever.

 

[babarr]

Maxminimizeusablesize

I am a long time Mac user, and I happen to like the Zoom button and the way it works. However, you can't tell what state you are currently in because it always shows "+" no matter what. I agree that this is confusing. "+" suggests getting bigger - but that isn't what it always means.

To be honest, "-" suggests doing the opposite of "+", so it is actually a poor choice of button for minimise. It really should point down to the dock - though that's confusing when your dock isn't at the bottom.

Some months ago, I first got into the Mac world with my MBP. At first I also was confused by this, but once you understand that "+" does not mean "maximize" (size), but "optimize" (or "maximize usability"), it's perfectly ok. It often works better than "maximize", e.g. with windows displaying text such as browser windows, because it's really not comfortable to read those wide lines on the wide display. Safari does this just right (in contrast to e.g. Camino, which instead does a maximize).

In that light, the labelling of "-" does seem adequate indeed, because the opposite of "maximize usability" obviously is "minimize usability", which is arguably best achieved by not displaying anything at all

 

[08380728]

Im hearing iChat in the latest Leopard build finally offers "Auto Accept File Transfers" whoo hoo any one else confirm this?

And no it not a security risk any more than downloading a file in Safari. Difference is Safari can Auto Open a downloaded file iChat can't. Even still if ppl are still paranoid create a disc image as iChat's download directory and only allow accept from ppl in your list. Simple.

I also hear "Input Managers" will be banned in Leopard, which means no more Chax which currently provides us features Apple are too lazy to provide.

 

[heisetax]

Small list of new features

I have a feeling that everyone will have to wait until October still. Maybe not till the end....but at this point I don't think Steve wants this release to have ANY major problems. After the delay, I think everyone at Apple would rather have a very stable, fast OS....than a buggy release filled with Vista-like problems.

I think the other poster nailed it.....I think Apple probably has tailored back on the overall feature set to make sure they get a fast and stable release out.

Granted....Leopard it chalk full of new goodies.

Just my thoughts. Trust me....I can't wait, and would love to be wrong!

-Kevin

This may be why Steve Jobs never did list all of the planned changes. That way if some did not work well enough, they could just be left out.

Bill the TaxMan

 

[Evangelion]

Why bother discussing whether the red button should close a window or close an app? Did anyone really think this was going to change in Leopard?

The current implementation is not going to change. Ever.

Then why does the red button close the window in some apps, while in others it closes the entire app? We are not talking about differences between OS X and Windows, we are talking about differences inside OS X.

 

[TBi]

Then why does the red button close the window in some apps, while in others it closes the entire app? We are not talking about differences between OS X and Windows, we are talking about differences inside OS X.

This is usually only when the window open is the only window that can be opened by the application. Such as system preferences. If other windows could be opened then the X just closes the open window without closing the app.

I think there are more important things in life to worry about than whether the little X closes the window or app...

 

[MonkeyClaw]

I completely agree with you here... especially with the close button behaviour. I still don't get what's the criteria that determines if it is ok to close the app or just the window of an app when clicking the X. If you ask me, the close button should always close the window and never the app. To close the app, just use the Cmd-Q combo.

I think it makes up its mind based on instances of the App. For example you wouldn't have more than one window of iPhoto open so when you close iPhoto using the red x, it automatically closes the App since there is no way to have more than one instance of the app open. Same goes for like Aperture and what not.

 

[bousozoku]

Then why does the red button close the window in some apps, while in others it closes the entire app? We are not talking about differences between OS X and Windows, we are talking about differences inside OS X.

We're talking about differences between developers.

The guidelines never say to close the application but some developers do it on the close button. It's not like Windows where the menu bar exists within the main window. When you click the close button on the main window in a Windows application, it has no choice but to shut down the application because it cannot survive without the window.

I think it's silly to emulate that on Mac OS X without an option because it's not typical behaviour. However, there used to be some system add-on that you could load that would monitor closed windows and shut down the application when all of its windows were closed.