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No we don’t, by default the Apple Watch only lets you use half the storage on it for media, I can only use 16g or less out of the 32gb, a fact that apple doesn’t mention at all until you talk to their customer support and switch out multiple Apple watches thinking is a software defect.
If you have only 16 GB out of 32 available something is wrong. Out of the 32 GB, about 25 should be available to the user.
 
Essentially, Apple is saying to developers if you don’t follow the rules off with your head! And I agree. It’s their platform, their tools, their store and their rules. Maybe Epic should invest in making their own platform.
100% agree with you. The fact that Epic is trying to argue against the fact that they should not be barred from accessing the platform *EVEN THOUGH THEY DELIBERATELY BROKE THE TOS* in the first place, was just baffling to read. :rolleyes:
 
Good job intentionally ignoring the point and drawing a false conclusion for the sake of dishonestly pretending to debate:

High barriers to entry such as large upfront investment, notably named sunk costs, requirements in infrastructure and exclusive agreements with distributors, customers, and wholesalers ensure that it will be difficult for any new competitors to enter the market, and that if any do, the trust will have ample advance warning and time in which to either buy the competitor out, or engage in its own research and return to predatory pricing long enough to force the competitor out of business.
None of this is Apples' issue.
Apple exclusively requires you to have your app on the Apple App store (aka requiring the use of Apple's infrastructure), for the app to be available on one of them most used devices in the world (that has a freely available API). You know this, but you choose to blindly defend a multi-billion dollar company's anticompetitive business practices.
You're blindly criticizing a company's lawful business practices. You may not like those practices but they are not illegal.
 
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Pretty much all the physical store analogies are worthless since those stores have no way to force you to come back to them for accessories to something that you purchased there. And they have no way to force people making products to only sell through them.
You might have a leg to stand on if the physical store didn’t invent and provide the intellectual property in the form of developer tools and APIs for the product-makers selling in their store to build their products in the first place.
 
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One problem with this constantly-repeated analogy is that some developers don’t want to be in this store in the first place. But they basically have to be there because the store has set it up so its customers aren’t allowed to shop anywhere else. Nobody is “forcing” the developers to distribute through the App Store, but that’s how monopolies work: there is no practical alternative because the market leader prohibits it.

If a developer is capable of marketing their apps, finding customers, processing payments and offering support, it makes sense to use their own infrastructure as much as they can, and use the App Store only for the part for which Apple absolutely allows no alternative: as a download site.

This isn’t developers taking advantage of Apple by luring customers out of the App Store, it’s Apple taking advantage of developers by collecting a 15% or 30% commission for a set of services that they don’t need.

P.S. What if Apple split its developer service into three tiers:
- Gold - 15% commission - developer tools, app hosting with public listing, app review with an "approved by Apple" badge, payment processing
- Silver - 5% commission - developer tools, app hosting with public listing
- Bronze - 1% commission or flat annual fee - developer tools, app hosting with private listing
Then developers could pay only for what they need, Apple could retain exclusivity and customers could give preference to apps that use Apple's review process and payment system if that's important to them. That's the kind of evolution I'd like to see.
So Nintendo has a monopoly on their platform, and Microsoft has a monopoly on theirs, Sony on theirs, and Google on theirs, and so on, and so on? Companies should not be allowed to make money, and must open source everything? Developers have the sole right to use all of Apple’s developer tools, APIs, and installed base, free of charge? Got it.
 
So Nintendo has a monopoly on their platform, and Microsoft has a monopoly on theirs, Sony on theirs, and Google on theirs, and so on, and so on? Companies should not be allowed to make money, and must open source everything? Developers have the sole right to use all of Apple’s developer tools, APIs, and installed base, free of charge? Got it.
Google’s Android is not gaming console. It’s essential system. You can install any app without Google’s allowing.
 
I don’t understand how this is any different than a physical retailer. You want a product on the shelves, the retailer needs to profit from selling your item. If you try to circumvent the retailer from making money in their own store by selling it out of your own truck in their parking lot, they have every right to stop selling your product in your store. And for all those who say, but it’s my device I should choose what’s on it! I want to play smash bros on my Xbox but I had to buy a switch to play smash bros. I’d love to bring my electrical devices from England and plug them in to a US socket too, but it’s the wrong voltage and frequency.
It’s different in that Apple has 5 letters and starts with A. That’s pretty much it! :) Apple, as a company, has a lot of people that don’t like that so many “sheeple” like their products and have made them one of the most valuable companies in the world. They want to see something, ANYTHING detrimental happen to Apple for the lulx, because Apple discontinued their Thunderbolt monitor, because the MacPro’s too expensive, whatever.

So much so that they would be in favor of ANYTHING that would make their feelings justified, regardless of if what they think is true or what they want to happen is legal. So, when you read the analogies that don’t really apply, and the logical statements that are almost, but not quite, entirely unlike logic, just read in it’s place “I DON’T LIKE APPLE THEY ARE POOPYHEADS AND ALL THE APPEL PEOPLE ARE POOPYHEADS AND THEY’RE STUPID AND DUM AND YURE GONNA GET IT.” it’s effectively the same thing. :)
 
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Why? Apple's approach to prevent installing of apps outside of the app store is unheard of in the industry. Literally every other general purpose computer can install apps from any source. Microsoft and Linux have shown that you can do this securely, there's no reason for Apple to disallow it except for profits.
An iPhone isn't a general purpose computer by a long stretch imo.
 
Apple only charges the 30% for IAP. Look at Netflix that does not pay to Apple. The only thing is that you have to know to go to Netflix's website to purchase your subscription instead of doing it via Apple.

You can argue that the 30% is too much and it wouldn't trigger me to reply because I don't want to argue if it is too much or too little.
But without the IAP charges and allowing redirect to another website, Apple would not see much money (app free and IAP right in the app without a charge).

Maybe the model needs to change - maybe after $10K in IAP, apple gets 5%. After $1M, gets 10%. Or some other way.
Oh trust me, I'm happy that Netflix one upped Apple. Apple got what they deserved with that one and they lost LOTS of potential revenue, while Netflix saw reduced cancellations.

The model does need to change and I strongly believe in a tier system based on volume (preferably based on price tiers combined with active subscriptions. E.g.: Apps over $10 have a percent rate of this, plus a percent based on number of subscriptions for that app).

No matter how you cut it, Apple demanding 30% is unethical, but I guess the company that uses [near] slave labor to produce a phone doesn't have much morals to begin with.
 
Not sure of where you're getting your information from, but getting sued is not equivalent to breaking the law. One can (attempt to )sue for any reason. All it takes is $250 and a court filing.
Yes, you said that already. And once again, Apple does have a problem and they are afraid of going to trial because they know they will lose, which is why they are trying to have the lawsuit dismissed before any evidence and case can be made.

From what I hear, Epic has found some interesting things during the discovery process, none of which are favorable to Apple.
 
Do you think that Sony does not see a dime for any copy sold that does not go through their digital store?
Do you think that if all the PS game developers were to stop doing digital distribution and only physical, Sony would not see a dime?
What about the new digital PS5? Do you think that Sony is going to allow a non Sony store in the PS5?
yes
 
So Nintendo has a monopoly on their platform, and Microsoft has a monopoly on theirs, Sony on theirs, and Google on theirs, and so on, and so on? Companies should not be allowed to make money, and must open source everything? Developers have the sole right to use all of Apple’s developer tools, APIs, and installed base, free of charge? Got it.
I didn't say any of those things. I suggested a fairer pricing model for Apple's services, but didn't say "free," "not allowed to make money," "open source" or anything remotely like that. 🤷
 
An iPhone isn't a general purpose computer by a long stretch imo.
There are things a computer can do that an iPhone can't, but there are also things many people use an iPhone for that they wouldn't use a computer for, like phone calls, photos, GPS navigation, home security/automation, etc. So in the sense that matters here, I'd say smartphones are more broadly functional than computers.
 
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There are things a computer can do that an iPhone can't, but there are also things many people use an iPhone for that they wouldn't use a computer for, like phone calls, photos, GPS navigation, home security/automation, etc. So in the sense that matters here, I'd say smartphones are more broadly functional than computers.
This. I would actually say that an iPhone is even more general purpose than a computer because of the vast amount of functionality built into it.

I would also say that since iPhones are a phone and thus an essential communication device, Apple blocking apps in the store AND not allowing apps to be hosted in a third-party store interferes with the user's ability to communicate.
 
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And lets not forget...

What is Epic? Its a Game developer. A software company. Their very existence relies on other companies pouring millions into the development, manufacturing, and distribution of POPULAR hardware platforms.

Epic comes along.. sees that platform as an attractive one to write software for, then basically rides on the coattails of the successful hardware company for providing them the outlet to develop for and make money on.

The app store is part and parcel of that Hardware.

If iOS devices didn't exist, then Epic wouldn't be developing, distributing, and making millions from them. Dont like the terms of that platform? dont develop for it - simple. The fact they do, and did so knowing full well the terms and conditions of doing so leave me in no sympathy for them.
Epic's goal is to try and break Apple's reign. It's been done before. When a company gets too large, the govt steps in and break it apart to allow for more competition which lower the cost for consumers. Look up AT&T and Pacbell.
 
Source? I highly doubt Apple spent billions of dollars creating an app store and turning it into what it is. It is the third-party developers that turned the app store into what it is, without third party developers, the iPhone would be more useless than a $1200 flip phone.
You don’t think Apple has spent billions of dollars on iPhones and iOS over the past 16 years (assuming Apple started working on the iPhone in 2005)? Those are a major part of what makes the App Store great. Programming costs are only a part of the overall costs of making the App Store.

Other stores could be developed for the iOS ecosystem if Apple allowed it (they shouldn’t) but they could only be successful because of all the money Apple has dumped into the ecosystem of iPhones, iOS, and the App Store.

App developers add so much utility to iPhones, which users and Apple benefit from, but Apple keeps it an attractive and safe market for consumers and attractive ecosystem for developers.
 
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How does easy change it not being true?
MacRumors wrote: “In the court filing, Apple says that the iOS ‌App Store‌ can easily be replicated and duplicated”

That’s not true. Replicating the App Store is not easy. It would require developing an OS, a phone, etc. Design and programming might be easy but replicating the success of the iOS App Store? Ask Samsung how their Galaxy Store is doing relative to Google Play.
 
Yes, you said that already. And once again, Apple does have a problem and they are afraid of going to trial because they know they will lose, which is why they are trying to have the lawsuit dismissed before any evidence and case can be made.

From what I hear, Epic has found some interesting things during the discovery process, none of which are favorable to Apple.
That may very well be. But it's not over until it's over. Even if the judgement is favorable to Epic, there will be an appeals process.

From what I can gather in my online snippets, Epic has an epic fail on it's hands with this lawsuit.
 
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MacRumors wrote: “In the court filing, Apple says that the iOS ‌App Store‌ can easily be replicated and duplicated”

That’s not true. Replicating the App Store is not easy. It would require developing an OS, a phone, etc. Design and programming might be easy but replicating the success of the iOS App Store? Ask Samsung how their Galaxy Store is doing relative to Google Play.
I guess there are two points. 1) getting an app store to market and 2) having your newly created app store be a success. I don't think Apple is guaranteeing success, but for a large (or larger) corporation and app distribution shouldn't be too difficult to develop.
 
That was an example. You have yet to disprove my argument, which means that you are not wanting an honest debate, you just want to shill for Apple.
Well done. Arguing after the fact that it was an example is an honest debate? I view this as throwing stuffs on the wall and see what sticks.

Let’s just stick to the facts.

As of now, Apple has not been found to have violated any laws. Just a lot of civil lawsuits from some big corporate (and I’ll add greedy) type.

Apple built the entire iOS eco-system and have every rights to dictate terms of use for their creation. Nobody has any rights to demand anything from Apple unless Apple did not deliver on what they claim their products and services do.

It looks like you’re quite agitated. Chill. Calling everyone who defends Apple a shill doesn’t make you look good.

It’s a debate. Let’s have some fun debating.
 
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