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Originally posted by freundt
"Ask Next, ask DrDos, et. al."
Did next, DrDos or any of the others have the mindshare that apple does?

In the general software arena (not specifically OS), Borland and Symantec were category-leading companies who are now a (small) fraction of their former size. Corel owned the Windows vector-graphics space just ten years ago, and they just sold out to some pint-sized venture cap firm (presumably for disassembly and parts salvage).

In the OS arena, you couldn't have asked for a better opponent to Windows than OS/2: it was a generation ahead of Windows (near-NT stability; better-than-Win95 usability); it was backed by a business-friendly and business-loved company; it ran all your Windows software seamlessly (until Win 95 came out); it was cheaper than Windows; it was a simple, drop-in installation from Windows. Yet, it failed miserably, costing IBM significantly more money than Apple has to support such an endeavor.

The software business is brutal, especially when you are going up against Microsoft in its own space. If you asked any of those companies what they should have done differently, I would bet each would say that they needed to insulate themselves more from Microsoft. Apple's hardware base is perfect insulation from MS; it is foolish to give it up.


Did they have support of the adobe's and macromedia's of the world. Were they producing a superior product?

Look at Adobe and Macromedia's current Mac offerings: does Apple have the support of the Adobes and Macromedias of the world?


If you look at the reason a few of those companies failed, it was because of internal, not external issues.

Diagnosing cause of death is tough. In the end, the cause of death in most humans is that their heart stopped beating. However, you need to look further than just the immediate moments prior to death to find the real causes.


Apple will not be going in from scratch. they have the ipod, the itunes, the iphoto, the i-can't-remember apps. People KNOW about apple. the reason they don;t use it? They have to shell out 3k+ to get the apple os.

Quicktime is free, and has been for some time: how many Windows desktops have it?

If they could go out and buy the apple os, use their adodbe, use their mail programs, seamlessly use thir Ipod, etc, then they would.

They wouldn't have Office. They wouldn't have their company home-rolled Windows apps. They wouldn't have that shareware app that they paid for in 1995 and still use every day even though there are better alternatives out there for free these days (because, dammit, they paid for it so it's gotta be better!)

So, no, the vast majority of working individuals would not go out and buy OS X any more than the vast majority of users went out and bought OS/2 when it was a generation ahead of Windows (stability and UI-wise) and had the backing of the MOST recognized name in the computer business (aside from Microsoft).


And what would happen to apple? Well, they would still market new g5,g6,g7,g1000's to the pro market - video editors and the like.

Not bloody likely. Chop off the market for processors fueled by Apple's consumer offerings, and the G5+ line becomes impractical.

Plus, we're talking about moving to Itanium here; that's going to replace the server line first, then the pro line. G5+ gets squeezed out. Apple can't introduce a new processor instruction set in its high-end lines, have its customers switch over, then say "thanks for funding our development of consumer Itaniums; now, switch back!"


But they would also have more people using their apps(the iphotos and itunes),

The iApps are not profitable. Especially not if you're going to give them away with the OS. More people using free iApps doesn't give Apple one thin dime.

buying their perhipherals (the ipods etc..),

You don't need your own Intel OS to sell peripherals. Hence the market for peripherals not produced by Microsoft. In fact, Microsoft peripherals don't do astoundingly better than other companies' peripherals in the marketplace.

Also, IIRC, the iPod is doing quite well without an Intel OSX.


and increase thier market share for consumer based applications. ( and subscription serves too).

Apple could easily open .Mac to Windows users to increase subscriptions. Again, however, the iApps aren't money-makers. Right now, they aren't really ready to be sold on the Windows side either. They would be a great value-add to the OS offering, but, like I said before, Apple has to get a HUGE share of the OS market before it can fund the iApp and OS development further.


(also remember that the analysist are saying that apple IS CURRENTLY setting themselves up as more of a "lifestyle" company - what could be better to achive this, than to gain massive market share)

You sound like a dot bomber. Single-mindedly pursuing market share has been the demise of more software companies in the past decade than probably anything else.

Apple is setting itself up as a "lifestyle" company. Apple has stated as much itself. But "lifestyle" is not what makes money. Apple is not just a brand: it is a hardware company. Look at other lifestyle companies: would they exist if they didn't also sell a real and tangible product? The "lifestyle" enhances sales. It is not a revenue generator in and of itself!
 
Originally posted by whooleytoo
The only reason OS9 was secure was it generally didn't run many many net services by default. The fact that OSX has a firewall, multiple users, requires administrator access to install software etc. means it's far more secure than an OS 9 machine running the same services.

Plus, the fact that the default mail client doesn't have a built in scripting language (that I'm aware of) that executes when mail is opened helps a lot! ;-)

Mac OS X is Unix.

People know how to write viruses for Unix.

Mac OS 9 was its own thing.

No one knows how to write viruses for it.
 
Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Mac OS X is Unix.

People know how to write viruses for Unix.

Mac OS 9 was its own thing.

No one knows how to write viruses for it.
Thats what I was getting at😉
 
Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Mac OS X is Unix.

People know how to write viruses for Unix.

Mac OS 9 was its own thing.

No one knows how to write viruses for it.

Anyone capable of taking advantage of the RPC vulnerability in Windows (such as in MSBlast) is surely competent enough to read up on OS9 and pick out a few exploits - if they chose to do so.

The current school of thought in security and cryptography is that it's better to have the security widely and publicly probed to determine as quickly as possible any potential weaknesses, rather than a more secretive approach which relies on ignorance of the system, where the true vulnerability of the system is never really determined.

Plus, bear in mind the move to Unix is a two way street. Yes, more Unix hackers will now know more about the Mac's security. But also, more Unix system/network administrators know more about securing Macs!

Mike.
 
Actually, an opposing school of thought is that of "security by obscurity". If no one ever tries to hack your system because it's so obscure, after all, who cares? This school of thought actually worked for the Mac.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Linux doesn't have any trouble

Originally posted by NavyIntel007
Solaris is going nowhere on x86.

Solaris is no better than Linux on x86. Since Linux is free, there's no reason to use Solaris.

OS X has more apps available for it than either Linux or Solaris, and its ease of management as a Unix platform is unrivaled. It's a *nix worth paying for.
 
Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Actually, an opposing school of thought is that of "security by obscurity". If no one ever tries to hack your system because it's so obscure, after all, who cares? This school of thought actually worked for the Mac.

Security through obscurity is actually fine for home users, to a point (unless you bank online, or you credit card details are on your Mac etc.) But it's ruled the Mac out of large government and corporate contracts who need tried and tested security, over "no one's ever tried, so we're not sure how secure it is".

Mike.
 
Originally posted by jettredmont
Apple is not just a brand: it is a hardware company.

Very well thought out! I once vehemently believed that Apple should not make OS X for Wintel as it would kill their hardware sales but that doesn't have to be case, risky as it might be. I think that Apple should try to increase market share as a principle but not so aggressively as to force them into a frantic death spiral. But it cannot be argued that they are doing well in their so-called "niche" and their products are stunning, again considering that they have to be a Dell and a M$ at the same time.
 
Originally posted by rjwill246
But it cannot be argued that they are doing well in their so-called "niche".
I don't know about that their "niche" has a very dedicated core of users.. You don't see many people switching from Apple to windows in Apples niche market.
 
I don't care what processor is inside as long as it is the best availible! Right now that seems to be the G5. It also looks like IBM has committed to push the envelope for the PPC line - which is very good for Apple. If Intel decides to put out a better 64bit processors then it's ok with me if Apple moves in that direction. Not that Steve has been calling to get my permission! Do I think any of this will happen? When the infernal regions experience sub-zero weather patterns.
 
Originally posted by whooleytoo
Security through obscurity is actually fine for home users, to a point (unless you bank online, or you credit card details are on your Mac etc.) But it's ruled the Mac out of large government and corporate contracts who need tried and tested security, over "no one's ever tried, so we're not sure how secure it is".

Like Windows XP? 🙄

Originally posted by rjwill246
But it cannot be argued that they are doing well in their so-called "niche" and their products are stunning, again considering that they have to be a Dell and a M$ at the same time.

Actually, Apple IS doing well in their niche. And their products ARE stunning.
 
Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Like Windows XP? 🙄


LOL


I also thinkapple is doing very well in their market putting out competative products at a little higher than the average price but you get what you pay for
 
Originally posted by pgwalsh
Could you explain this a bit farther. You see Oracle, IBM, and some other major players develop for Linux. It's the consumer software that doesn't get ported to Linux. That's one reason why linux is so popular in the business market and not so popular in the home market.

So I'm thinking your referring to major players as Adobe, Macromedia, and other non enterprise based software vendors?


Maybe things like this will be more common in the near future!
 
Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Like Windows XP? 🙄

Heheh. Actually, I'm surprised by the number of corporations still using NT, and will be for some time to come. 'New' and 'untested' aren't words these IT gurus like! 🙂

Mike.
 
Originally posted by whooley
Heheh. Actually, I'm surprised by the number of corporations still using NT, and will be for some time to come. 'New' and 'untested' aren't words these IT gurus like! 🙂

Mike.
I don't know why this is a suprise like the old saying goes if it ain't broke don't fix it
 
Re: Re: Apple set to go Intel? (Again)

Originally posted by jettredmont
Just a few comments on the article:
Itaniums here, not Pentiums. Given that the article seems to be saying this will start off in server-land and then move down to user-land, maybe Itanium will be cheaper by the time Apple wants to put it in an iMac. But then, only if it's in mainstream Wintel desktops first.

Deerfield Itanium 2
Deerfield Pricing

Still more expensive than any current desktop processor and the chances of Apple switching to a unproven platform that is extremely lacking in software support are nil (especally considering their current lineup) but still, low voltage Itanium 2s are getting cheap fast.
 
Here's a fact that might not have been mentioned. I know developers who were say that OS X runs on Intel boxes as a matter of course in the process of porting Unix code. That means that Intel Macs are already in Apple HQ.

Bigger question. Who cares? I mean don't we want the fastest coolest computers? The Mac obsession with these details is funny to me. Didn't Mac people hate IBM for most of Apple's history? Wouldn't most people here hate SUN if the developed a consumer PC that outsold the Mac?

I hope Apple choose to use the fastest cheapest processors they can find and if that means Intel that's great.

Don't long term Mac users realize how limited their purchases are due to Apple's enforced upgrade difficulty.

I have said before - if Apple gave people an Intel and non-Intel choice, at the same price, people would buy Intel. If the price reflected Intel's relative cost the non-Intel machines would be a niche buy pretty quickly.

I'd think that an IMac (IntelMac) would be Microsoft's biggest headache.
 
Penman said:
Here's a fact that might not have been mentioned. I know developers who were say that OS X runs on Intel boxes as a matter of course in the process of porting Unix code. That means that Intel Macs are already in Apple HQ.

You're saying this as if it's somehow new or relevant, even though it's been known that Apple has been keeping x86 operability since the days of the Rhapsody project. Apple wouldn't be dense enough not to at least test the basic OS on x86 hardware. The problem is in the fact that you'd lose quite a lot of your software when developers had to port. Again. You know, right after moving to OS X?

Bigger question. Who cares? I mean don't we want the fastest coolest computers? The Mac obsession with these details is funny to me. Didn't Mac people hate IBM for most of Apple's history? Wouldn't most people here hate SUN if the developed a consumer PC that outsold the Mac?

Yes, we do, and that's why we're on PowerPC instead of the dying x86 spec. Intel's as good as admitted that the P4 is a dead-end line of speculation at this point and that they're going to have to move to the Dothan/Jonas/Merom line of processors on the desktop. AMD has long realized that clock isn't all there is to performance and has been keeping pace with Intel while sticking under the 3.0ghz mark.

Efficiency is key.

I hope Apple choose to use the fastest cheapest processors they can find and if that means Intel that's great.

I hope Apple uses the best processors they can get, not the cheapest.

I have said before - if Apple gave people an Intel and non-Intel choice, at the same price, people would buy Intel. If the price reflected Intel's relative cost the non-Intel machines would be a niche buy pretty quickly.

If Apple sold Intel, they'd be under within two years. A huge portion of the usability of the Mac OS is that it's on a controlled platform with a limited ability for others to hack into the firmware and either alter or pirate the code. If they were to move to x86, the bootlegs would be out within a week and the hardware business would sink. Apple is not a commodity company and PC users are not in the habit of paying top dollar for design.

I'd think that an IMac (IntelMac) would be Microsoft's biggest headache.

It would be the best thing to happen to them in a long time. Apple on x86 hardware would be even easier to crush, since Microsoft wouldn't even have to develop VPC anymore. All they do is sell an application to tap the Windows APIs or ease dual-booting for those who aren't power users.

You can't out-Dell Dell, and you can't beat Microsoft in a price war when you're only the size of Apple. That's why Linux on PowerPC, with the weight of Apple, IBM, Toshiba, Sony, AMD, nVidia, Freescale, and others is going to be what it takes.
 
I can forsee a stregety that includes PPC AND X86 Machines under the Apple Name

I do not foresee any plans in the near future that includes Apple selling Power Macintoshes based around an x86 processor. Simply because the PowerPC G5 chip is the fastest processor available 🙂)).

HOWEVER, I do foresee Apple selling computers based around X86 processors. I believe Apple could stand to break new ground if they were to ship a new, low cost Server based around an X86 processor running Mac OS X for IC (Intel Compatible).

Low cost Servers using industry standard X86 running an industry standard UNIX operating system (BSD, the core of Mac OS X) WITH one of the most well developed GUI every devised, BUT with the compatibly of an Xfree86 server are exactly where Apple should focus their efforts.

This is really the perfect place for Apple to start its move into the X86 world. First, 99% of those who purchase new Xserves do not use any software other than what comes with Mac OS X. 99% of those who purchase Xserves so not use any foreign PCI expansion card more exotic than a SCSI controller or Fiber optic channel card. Making these compatible with Mac OS X for X86 would really not require much, if any, extra work, if Apple kept the API the same.

As for software, 99% of those who purchase Xserves do not use any software not already provided by Mac OS X, all of which are open source (Apache, Samba, etc.) and could be readily ported to an X86 port of Mac OS X with no extra effort, save a recompile.

Using CommuniGate Pro as an example (because it is supported on various platforms and because it is the only major proprietary server app I can think of), most server applications are built with portability in mind. The developers of CommuniGate built it to easily move from one server operating system to another. This includes most, if not all, UNIX operating systems for both PPC and X86 platforms, and all Windows operating systems. They did this by not tying it to any platform dependent libraries. Research will show that most other, both open and close source, server applications follow the same path simply because it is easier and cheaper than building around on operating system and one chipset.

The point of my long post? A low cost Xserve (though Apple should probably create a new brand name to avoid confusion with their PPC based counterparts), (BTW, low cost spelled $500) based around a cheap X86 processor AND powered by a version of Mac OS X Server, built specifically APPLE based X86 processors (not sold separately for other X86 machines initially), which comes with all the tools and applications the current version of Mac OS X Server for PPC machines comes with (the built-in email system, DNS system, file server systems, etc.) would sell like hotcakes to small businesses (small like 1-10 employees) who do not have the need or resources for an IT department and who have cheap broadband access (our business has a DSL connection from SBC for under $40 a month, we could upgrade to a package for $60 a month that would give us more than enough bandwidth for an Email and Webserver AND still be able to download work related materials.

If Apple were to release a server with the above specs, for $500 dollars or below, that would basically allow me to setup an email and webserver in a matter of minutes, I would buy on in a second. I think you will find a lot of people like me out here.
 
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