Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
No, Apple actually deploys its patented technologies in real-world products and services. That doesn't damage innovation. Apple doesn't patent hoard with the goal of collecting royalties from the real innovators who build actual functioning products and services.

Apple has used some of its many patents in actually technology; and has many that never see an actual product. I agree it is not some patent troll, but I have no doubt it patents ideas simply because they can use them strategically even if they never build a product. It's the old IBM way. Sue us over patents? We'll find a few hundred of ours you likely violate, so let's settle.

In Koss' case, it appears they basically claim to have patented much of the concepts behind wireless digital headphones, and that while the idea may not be novel they have developed unique and patentable methods.

Koss, withs Striva line, has wireless products since 2012, before beats, Apple, etc. introduced their wireless headphones; so Koss actually deploys its patented technologies in real-world products.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: thettareddast
Apple settled for what appears to be $14M although if thats a combined number it was less than that. Sad that Koss went from maker of pro grade gear in the 70's to patent troll now. https://biztimes.com/intellectual-property-enforcement-nets-koss-corp-up-to-14-million/?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Daily:+Intellectual+property+enforcement+nets+Koss+Corp++up+to+$14+million&utm_campaign=20220726+Daily
I would not call them a patent troll. They still produce products using the tech they patented, and have a right to defend it. I’m guessing they settled because a fight would have probably driven them under, an a 14 mill settlement is about 20% of the companies value and can cover a lot of research or expenses; especially after having an auditor embezzle nearly 34 million from them.

They also seem to still make some pro grade headphones, as well as a line of less expensive consumer headphones. Judging from the reviews they make good stuff. Their electrostatics seem to be very much pro grade in terms of sound quality, and priced accordingly; although build quality is less than you expect from a 1k headphone. Koss has a lifetime warranty for the US made ones, which i suspect the ESP-950 is.

They also appear to be one of the rare old school audio companies that hasn’t gone bankrupt only to have their name revived and plastered on cheap junk.
 
Last edited:
How many times have we seen Apple use this strategy?

Use tech without paying for patents. Wait to see if anyone notices and if you get sued, deal with it then.
Too many times. Of course there are patent trolls, but these (actual patents used by actual companies that make products) cases are not few. I suspect Apple thinks like car mfgs as told in Fight Club: if the cost of patent licensing exceeds what they think will be an eventual settlement or compensation awarded by a court - they don't buy the license. The patent holders are the ones severely disadvantaged in either case - Apple f***s them by releasing a products with patent violations and makes tons of cash while years pass by and actual court deadline gets close. By that time they most likely already out-compete the competitor with their market share, and end up (worst case) paying some penny on the dollar type settlement to a company that's long since left in the dust.
The only way such things would be fixed is extremely expedient court cases that don't get stalled for years, and where actual market share losses are added on top of other compensation to even things out. But that's never happening though.
 
Too many times. Of course there are patent trolls, but these (actual patents used by actual companies that make products) cases are not few. I suspect Apple thinks like car mfgs as told in Fight Club: if the cost of patent licensing exceeds what they think will be an eventual settlement or compensation awarded by a court - they don't buy the license.

I think it is a bit more complicated. Apple or others may decide they have patents that also cover the innovation and provide protection in the event of a court case and decide not to license the patents. Or, a company over values their patents and Apple decides they’d rather risk a lawsuit, which is what you argue.

Part of the problem is patent law that allows functionality, not implementation, to be patented. Koss, if I understand correctly, patented touch controls via a capacitive interface and wireless transmission of audio. I’d argue that patent law should protect Koss from someone using capacitive touch controls but not another method of implementing touch control; and wireless audio transmission is not exactly an innovative idea. You could patent a new lossless codec for wireless, but someone should be allowed to develop and patent a different lossless codec without violating your patent.

Koss also claims a patent on internal microphones for voice control; yet voice control is not a new idea. Is using an internal wireless make instead of and external one innovative enough to warrant a patent?

Apple may have decided Koss’ patents would not have held up in a court fight.

Another issue is the USPTO; I suspect the workload for examiners is so high they have to push applications through as fast as possible; but that means less time to thoroughly review an application. Approve it and let companies fight it out later or deny it and have to re-review it upon when appealed? Even so, time delays and backlogs mean two different examiners could issue patents for the same idea. That leads to patent fights as well.


The patent holders are the ones severely disadvantaged in either case - Apple f***s them by releasing a products with patent violations and makes tons of cash while years pass by and actual court deadline gets close. By that time they most likely already out-compete the competitor with their market share, and end up (worst case) paying some penny on the dollar type settlement to a company that's long since left in the dust.

Which is why striking a deal is probably the best solution. In Koss’ case, we don’t know what patents Apple has that could be used to invalidate Koss’; and Koss likely could not afford a court fight. Apple made an offer that spared Koss a costly fight they may not win, and ammunition to settle with Bose et. al.

Settling is not an admission of guilt but simply a way to end the uncertainty and avoid spending money on a court fight.

As I said earlier, a company I am involved with settled a lawsuit we’d probably win because it was a lot cheaper than a drawn out court fight. While winning would be nice spending the money was not in our best interest; and we wound up settling for our original offer anyway.

The only way such things would be fixed is extremely expedient court cases that don't get stalled for years, and where actual market share losses are added on top of other compensation to even things out. But that's never happening though.

A special patent court, not just for appeals, with judges with patent law experience would be a good start. That would avoid circuit shopping and non-technical juries deciding extremely complicated technical issues.
 
Last edited:
Which is why striking a deal is probably the best solution. In Koss’ case, we don’t know what patents Apple has that could be used to invalidate Koss’; and Koss likely could not afford a court fight. Apple made an offer that spared Koss a costly fight they may not win, and ammunition to settle with Bose et. al.

Settling is not an admission of guilt but simply a way to end the uncertainty and avoid spending money on a court fight.

As I said earlier, a company I am involved with settled a lawsuit we’d probably win because it was a lot cheaper than a drawn out court fight. While winning would be nice spending the money was not in our best interest; and we wound up settling for our original offer anyway.
It's exactly that - an admission of guilt on Apple's part. Because if Koss would lose (if there was really no infringement) then Apple's losses would be covered and no harm would come - and yet another company would be "scared away" and others would think twice. A clear victory.
If however Apple pays up that means firstly a great PR storm has been avoided to the tune of when Apple was even forced to post an apology to Samsung on its front page - a link. The cost: I would probably not mistake in assuming roughly that what they woulf have paid for - for licencing. Maybe more, maybe less. And there's a good reason behind the NDA of the exact sum - why announce what was paid? That in itself would be an indirect admission of guilt, because who on God's green earth would otherwise pay a settlement for NOT infringing? Apple is not and will never be a charity.

Like I said, it can be boiled down to a simple formula:
If (projected sales+market dominance) : (legal loss+settlememt) = >1
Then it's worth the risk. If <1 then not. It's like betting on a stock with the highest certainty of outcome imaginable, besides that - no risks at all.
 
It's exactly that - an admission of guilt on Apple's part.

It’s simply a business decision to end a distraction.

That in itself would be an indirect admission of guilt, because who on God's green earth would otherwise pay a settlement for NOT infringing? Apple is not and will never be a charity.

When it’s cheaper and removes the uncertainty of. A lawsuit; which who knows who will win in the end and how long it lasts? Koss may have proposed the settlement to avoid an expensive fight as well; and Apple has little to gain with a court fight.

Like I said, it can be boiled down to a simple formula:

You are fixated on only one possible scenario when there are other plausible ones.
 
It’s simply a business decision to end a distraction.



When it’s cheaper and removes the uncertainty of. A lawsuit; which who knows who will win in the end and how long it lasts? Koss may have proposed the settlement to avoid an expensive fight as well; and Apple has little to gain with a court fight.



You are fixated on only one possible scenario when there are other plausible ones.
That was a lot of speculation all depending on Apple's supposed charity in a suit they'd win.
 
That was a lot of speculation all depending on Apple's supposed charity in a suit they'd win.

It's not charity, it's business. I've been there, and when settling is cheaper than the cost of winning you settle. Simple math. It has nothing to do with who is right; but minimizing your costs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: thettareddast
It's not charity, it's business. I've been there, and when settling is cheaper than the cost of winning you settle. Simple math. It has nothing to do with who is right; but minimizing your costs.
No, I doubt you've been there. That's literally not how winning a case works, like, at all.
 
No, I doubt you've been there.

You are free to believe what you want. I'm just telling you how it works in the real world.

That's literally not how winning a case works, like, at all.

Winning a case has nothing to do with it. A settlement is not an admission of guilt. It's about what is the least cost option and removing uncertainty. Even if, as in our case, your attorney thinks you have a solid case and probably will win, no one knows what a jury may decide. Even winning would cost 3-4x what settling would; and there is no assurance we'd be awarded lawyers' fees. The flip side was the other side had a weak case, and thus settled for a tiny fraction of what they asked for in the suit.

So in the end it was cheaper for us to pay a tiny settlement and them to take it than either side going to court and getting into a potentially expensive multi-year fight. I suspect Apple and Koss reached the same decision.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.