Apple should get rid of iLife on new MacBooks

[polaris20]

I agree with you Polaris. There is nothing wrong with USB for smaller setups, although I wouldn't personally multitrack a drumkit over USB (thats just personal choice because I think firewire is more reliable).

Anyway, who monitors through a computer anyway, you want to monitor straight off your interface while recording - then you get absolutely NO latency.

This whole USB latency myth is total BS, I would always prefer to use FW but USB can be just as good for certain things.

I actually do monitor back through the computer often. Generally when I am running a guitar dry into the interface, then using Native Instruments Guitar Rig 3. You've got to, otherwise all you here is plain dry guitar.

Also, I frequently use convolution impulses to mimic speaker cabs, and that needs computer monitoring too.

In both cases, USB does fine.

I'm not saying FW isn't great for audio. Obviously it is. But for the other guy to say USB is useless for audio is extraordinarily ignorant, and shows complete lack of experience.

 

[Shurran]

Yea, it was a little extreme of me to say that you should never monitor through the machine, you have given some excellent examples of times when it is necessary. Like you say, USB does fine for this.

I feel like putting disclaimer at the end of all my posts saying - 'but I still think it was a terrible idea to remove firewire from the MacBook'

 

[Queso]

Both my M-Audio Axiom keyboard and Digitech guitar effects/input device use USB. I even plug the Axiom in via the USB hub built into the Mac's keyboard. Never had an issue with latency.

As for FireWire being required for GarageBand, I use both Logic and Live and USB covers my needs. Are you saying a casual iLife user needs FireWire but someone who obviously makes music enough to take the step up to pro level apps doesn't?

 

[polaris20]

Yea, it was a little extreme of me to say that you should never monitor through the machine, you have given some excellent examples of times when it is necessary. Like you say, USB does fine for this.

I feel like putting disclaimer at the end of all my posts saying - 'but I still think it was a terrible idea to remove firewire from the MacBook'

Oh I know where you're coming from dude! You said nothing extreme.

And I completely agree; it was a very bad idea to remove FW. I know I've painted myself a USB fanboy, but that's really not the case. I still disagree with the FW omission.

 

[polaris20]

I'd just like to say all I'm doing is playing devil's advocate in this thread and the "No Firewire" thread. I'm not a USB fanboy by any means, nor do I agree with Apple's omission of the FW port on a $1600 laptop.

But I would like to point out that saying USB is "useless for video and audio" is a gross over generalization, especially in the consumer market. for example, 50% of Canon's consumer video cameras are either flash or hard disk based, using USB2 to transmit their full files. I've already outlined the audio interfaces, which, contrary to one inexperienced individual in this thread, are not "useless" for audio.

Is FW still better for these applications? Yes. It is.

I'm just trying to help those that do decide to go with the new model and continue doing video and/or audio recording.

 

[fivepoint]

The point is that many of us already HAVE Firewire-only equipment. We purchased it because it was superior, and now Apple has locked us into NOT buying a new laptop unless we don't want to spend over $2000! Nobody is forcing us to buy... but we want to! We wanted so bad to pick up a Macbook, and now we're locked out.

Even worse, think about the people who buy a Macbook today from Apple... then, a few weeks later they want to import some family christmas video from their camcorder because their computer has iMovie! They assumed it would work because it has iMovie, and their family members can do it, and the guy at the store said they could do it, but unfortunately, when they go to do so... they'll be sadly disappointed because their brand-new Macbook doesn't even support the most simple widely-used video-importing cables. Their brand new $1600 state-of-the-art laptop from Apple doesn't even support BASIC hardware standards and connect to 90% of the camcorders that customers actually own.

SAD.

 

[JSRockit]

Look, clearly you're missing my point. I realize the Duet has better converters than those I mentioned. My point is that there are still some very good interfaces out there for those chosing to stick with the new MB. I'm just trying to help by providing info. I wasn't intending on getting in an interface pissing contest.

Ok, come on...it is just a simple debate. I'm just stating that they cut out a bunch of great ones and left a few good ones... the macbook used to be a great audio computer and now it is not... there are no great USB2 devices. That will change though now I would imagine. Hopefully there is something we all don't know yet.

 

[polaris20]

The point is that many of us already HAVE Firewire-only equipment. We purchased it because it was superior, and now Apple has locked us into NOT buying a new laptop unless we don't want to spend over $2000! Nobody is forcing us to buy... but we want to! We wanted so bad to pick up a Macbook, and now we're locked out.

Agreed. Like I've said multiple times, I think the FW omission is a bad one.

Even worse, think about the people who buy a Macbook today from Apple... then, a few weeks later they want to import some family christmas video from their camcorder because their computer has iMovie! They assumed it would work because it has iMovie, and their family members can do it, and the guy at the store said they could do it, but unfortunately, when they go to do so... they'll be sadly disappointed because their brand-new Macbook doesn't even support the most simple widely-used video-importing cables. Their brand new $1600 state-of-the-art laptop from Apple doesn't even support BASIC hardware standards and connect to 90% of the camcorders that customers actually own.

While you're probably right, this will happen, IMO that's just being a bad consumer. Making sure stuff works with what you're buying is the consumer's responsibility, not the manufacturer. That applies to ANY company.

Ok, come on...it is just a simple debate. I'm just stating that they cut out a bunch of great ones and left a few good ones... the macbook used to be a great audio computer and now it is not... there are no great USB2 devices. That will change though now I would imagine. Hopefully there is something we all don't know yet.

Agreed. They did cut out a bunch of great interfaces, and that does indeed suck. I'm just saying there are viable alternatives to use, even if they're not yet as high quality as what is available on FW. Either manufacturers will come out with higher grade USB units, or Apple will see the error of their ways. I'm hoping for the latter.

 

[Bobeder9]

What about Target Disk Mode?

 

[venasque]

I have two Panasonic cameras: a PV-GS250 and PV-GS180, both of which could not be considered anything but consumer cameras and both of which are not supported in the new Macbooks.

ummmm. I went online and found the manuals for those cameras (see below for links). Both come with USB cables and their instructions for connecting to a Mac do not specify that a firewire cable must be purchased separately and is required.

I also went online to futureshop.ca and looked at the 8 HD camcorders on the front page of the HD camcorder section. Of the 8 only one had the option of firewire, however the cable had to be purchased separately.

It's understandable that people would be upset if they prefer using the firewire method, but it's not as though other options aren't available to you.

Links:

PV-GS180

PV-GS250

Future HD Camcorder page

 

[ravenvii]

you could buy an ACD and use its firewire ports, not a cost effective solution, but a solution none the less

Actually, the ACD requires the host machine to have Firewire for it's Firewire ports to function. It's simply a hub in reality. So no, that's not a solution, either.

What about Target Disk Mode?

Say good-bye.

 

[butterfly0fdoom]

I'm not seriously suggesting that they remove iLife.

The point of the post is to show how ridiculous removing firewire is.

Like this

"It's like saying hey the new Macbooks come with iWork but no keyboard and there is no way to hook a keyboard up to it, unless you can hack it to work with the ethernet port."


Why would anyone argue that taking it off firewire is a good thing?

I'm gonna laugh when Apple Ditches USB, cause I have never used it on a laptop. I connect my camcorder, hard Drives with firewire, and my external mouse with blue tooth, WOW maybe they should just kill USB too, I never use it.

That's just over-dramatic and extremely inaccurate. You're suggesting that without FireWire, iLife is a complete waste. For nearly 4 years, I used iLife just fine, and my FireWire port never had anything plugged into it.

Apple's primary target for the MacBook, the typical college student, is unlikely to even KNOW what FireWire is. I've said it in other threads and I'll say it here again. I worked in a college bookstore, and when the MacBook Air came out, people would ask about it. And we'd tell them that it doesn't have FireWire. And people would just give us a blank stare and ask, "What's FireWire?" People would see two external hard drives that look identical but one's more expensive, and they would ask why. And we would tell them that the more expensive one has a FireWire port. And we'd get the same blank stare and they'd ask again "What's FireWire?" I've seen people attempt to plug in USB Flash Drives into the FireWire port. FireWire barely exists in the public consciousness. You, and the people on forums such as this, may find the lack of FireWire a glaring omission. But to the people that Apple's targeting with the MacBooks, it makes absolutely no difference to the majority of them.

 

[iOrlando]

most new camcorders have USB 2...not sure why all you people are so angry. Do you have older camcorders?

 

[JSRockit]

There are several USB2.0 interfaces that are very good quality from Digidesign, M-Audio, Edirol, and MOTU. They work quite well.

Ok, you know you and I haven't agreed on this...but when it comes to Garageband, these are more than capable...

I do think the Macbook could be a pro computer...because Pros do use them...still can be as long as the don't need FW.

 

[Shurran]

most new camcorders have USB 2...not sure why all you people are so angry. Do you have older camcorders?

Yes, I use a DV camera because its simply better quality! Its not that old either.

 

[Ibjr]

This is entirely right. It is a huge shame that Apple decided differentiate with firewire instead of casing.

 

[UltraMegaMan]

I've had it. I'm usually a lurker on these forums but this thread is full of... I had to create an account and reply.

Clearly, many here don't know about the different video formats/standards. First, DV, HDV, and miniDV are all related. FireWire is THE transfer interface for these formats. Don't come up with links to AVCHD cameras and get everything confused.

Many pros and serious users still use HDV for various reasons. While there are also some new great cameras that are tapeless, there are other issues. For example, the Sony EX1 has rolling shutter problems. (incidently, it records to ExpressCard/34 format cards which are also gone from the new MB). My older HDV cameras which don't seem to show this problem are sometimes needed.

Finally, because someone has more budget for a camera doesn't mean he has an unlimited budget. That person could prefer going with a cheaper Dell with FireWire and XpressCard slot if it means he can put the money he saved on softare and accessories.

 

[Tosser]

(incidently, it records to ExpressCard/34 format cards which are also gone from the new MB).

The MB never had an expresscard34-slot. The MBP still has one.

Not that it matters much these days.

 

[UltraMegaMan]

The MB never had an expresscard34-slot. The MBP still has one.

Not that it matters much these days.

Thanks for the correction. I've only had MBP and those old white iBook.

 

[Chaos123x]

That's just over-dramatic and extremely inaccurate. You're suggesting that without FireWire, iLife is a complete waste. For nearly 4 years, I used iLife just fine, and my FireWire port never had anything plugged into it.

Apple's primary target for the MacBook, the typical college student, is unlikely to even KNOW what FireWire is. I've said it in other threads and I'll say it here again. I worked in a college bookstore, and when the MacBook Air came out, people would ask about it. And we'd tell them that it doesn't have FireWire. And people would just give us a blank stare and ask, "What's FireWire?" People would see two external hard drives that look identical but one's more expensive, and they would ask why. And we would tell them that the more expensive one has a FireWire port. And we'd get the same blank stare and they'd ask again "What's FireWire?" I've seen people attempt to plug in USB Flash Drives into the FireWire port. FireWire barely exists in the public consciousness. You, and the people on forums such as this, may find the lack of FireWire a glaring omission. But to the people that Apple's targeting with the MacBooks, it makes absolutely no difference to the majority of them.

I don't know of any acceptable camcorder that uses USB, they are all just crappy consumer cameras for rich people.

I use Prosumer cameras, but not Pro cameras.

 

[ti2ibal1]

Over the past few weeks I've been looking at consumer HD camcorders. My dSLR is Canon, so I started looking at them due to the good reviews I've read. All the models I've seen so far have USB 2.0 interface.

I've never in my life owned anything that utilized Firewire. All my prior laptops and desktops have never even had a Firewire port.

Needless to say, I really don't care about Apple decision to axe it.

 

[ti2ibal1]

These are same morons that voted bush in office twice.

What does that have to do with Apples omission of a Firewire port on the new Macbook?

 

[Chaos123x]

Would you care if Apple removed all the ports, no usb or firewire?

 

[kubricks]

This whole USB latency myth is total BS

Everyone has been dead wrong about USB external sound cards for the last 5 years?

Sure you can have your USB soundcard, running a midi keyboard and press a key and hear it with negligible latency while running a few tracks. I've had a USB card a few years back. I couldn't push my latency very far under 13-15ms and when you got to high track counts (I'm talking 8-10) the cracking audio came in.

Switching to firewire solved almost all of that. I've seen people with RME cards going under 2ms at high track counts.

Why does RME not make a USB audio card? Why does MOTU make only 1 in their entire lineup? Why did Apogee use firewire for the Duet? A card for budget minded people? I suspect they are onto something.

I want to know if you can do the same thing with 10+ tracks of logic VSTi going with FX, and still trigger BFD2 from a drumkit or midi controller with negligible latency. I suspect not considering munching up the CPU has a direct affect on USB performance.

I'm looking forward to the report on our friend's USB set up. We might all be in for a surprise. Doubt it will be contrary to anything the people at gearslutz have been saying for years though.

 

[kubricks]