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It took Sun a decade to make ZFS work well. Can Apple, starting over do it any faster then Sun? Sun put a great deal of resources into the project not just one engineer. ZFS is one of the reasons you'd run Solaris. But on the other hand does Apple need something so complex. We don't see Mac OS X used in big data centers so I don't see why Aple needs the full up ZFS, something MUCH simler might serve Apple's needs better.

Ummm... keep in mind that Apple is looking at building a large data center in the Carolina's. My bet is that if Apple could, they would likely prefer to eat their own dog food so to speak. Snow Leopard Server, IMHO, would probably be the chosen weapon of choice. Just because customers aren't currently leveraging OS X in those markets doesn't mean that Apple wouldn't like to be there or prefer to use what it knows for vertical integrations with their own products (vs. try to manipulate an OS that isn't of their own design). They just need the key elements to provide the relevancy that they need and while that might not be their forte today, it could very well be in their repertoire tomorrow.

I seriously doubt Apple can make something has "all the advantages of ZFS plus a few more goodies." in only a couple years. They have been trying to port ZFS for a couple years already and still were not done. Starting from scratch is a 10X harder problem.

It depends on the pragmatics of what they're attempting to attack. What they've learned in their experiences might allow them to improve upon what ZFS was trying to achieve and what would benefit most of it's users. Consider that it didn't take Apple nearly as long as what Sun has taken on ZFS to make HFS and HFS+ work. True, both of those file system's aren't nearly as complex or all encompassing as ZFS but the question that begs to be answered... does anyone truly need all of that which ZFS is providing and/or can a simpler solution be conjured that provides the vast majority of features without all of the achilles heels/hurdles to a practical solution that scales to fit within the Mac OS X operating system (and potentially other systems) more effectively?

Consider that even Sun has run into issues with trying to get ZFS to work within bootable environments and how even more daunting it has been to just graft ZFS onto other environments, including presumably OS X, ZFS might not nearly be "The Holy Grail" everyone has seen it as. True there's a lot to like/love about ZFS... but if it's flaky and temperamental and/or licensing is draconian or prohibitive... or if it muddies the user experience and requires them to have knowledge of when to use file system x vs. file system y, it's not intuitive to the primary target market (i.e. personal computers). It is at that point then that I'd pursue/consider another option. When Apple jumped on KHTML to make Webkit, the framework was not nearly as embraced as it is today, not as robust, nor as pervasive. Now there's browsers on just about every platform being based on Webkit (including Google's movement towards ChromeOS as an OS platform in itself), even KHTML itself has shifted to reusing bits of Webkit vs. sticking to their original fork.

Also consider the fact that Apple has tapped into open-source alternatives to closed source/licensed programs and that there is an open-source competitor to ZFS. Also consider that Oracle was a key-supporter in an alternative to ZFS as well called Btrfs which is available under GPL for Linux.

http://liquidat.wordpress.com/2007/08/07/interview-chris-mason-about-btrfs/

http://www.codestrom.com/wandering/2009/03/zfs-vs-btrfs-comparison.html

It doesn't hurt that Steve Jobs is longtime friends with Larry Ellison of Oracle...

So this singular file system engineer might be tasked with a team of developers to figure out how to look into Btrfs or perhaps simply take what's available in Btrfs and work it into an Apple-specific solution. With Ellison and Co. purchasing Sun, this could either mean "the end" of ZFS (maybe even within Oracle-owned Sun which has moved glacially slow since announcement, the tech world moves at the speed of light... it's not like Sun has ceased development of ZFS but, by the time ZFS licensing via an Oracle-owned Sun becomes favorable to Apple... Btrfs could potentially be on-par or ahead, esp. with support of another partner [i.e. Apple] working on it) or a decisive shift to something else.

Personally, for Apple's needs... Btrfs's GPL licensing might well be better suited to Apple's needs, even though admittedly Btrfs isn't nearly as far along as ZFS. Then again, as long as it's taking for the Sun/Oracle deal to go through... the favorability of that arrangement longterm obviously spells potentials for Apple to jump into ZFS (assuming Ellison and Co. don't just elect to scrap it) but, only if the alternatives haven't caught up or surpassed ZFS by that point. The great thing about tech is... if the time comes and ZFS is still there, Apple can dust off what work they've done and reopen the project. Otherwise, it could benefit Apple to see where they can take Btrfs or an Apple-engineered spin-off/fork of the Btrfs codebase into Apple's own focus.

I've followed the development of several new file systems. Two years is "way not enough" time. Many of the projects fail. You can't even be sure you will finish. I think Microsoft worked for many years on some kind of DBMS based file system to replace NTFS and it seems they just gave up

It is not confirmed that MS has given up in any stretch. The thing with MS is that some development work within their confines has taken epic amounts of time to get done. Look at their track record with OS releases and you'll see that even there, MS hasn't exactly been the company of accord when it comes to shipping on or near dates. That said, Windows 7 has seemingly pointed towards MS turning the corner vs. other projects in the past so it might be a changing of the guard in that vain. That noted... WinFS has never been said to not be in the cards, just that it didn't make it into Vista (which as an OS was pretty much scrapped and restarted halfway through the whole Longhorn development) nor Windows 7, but it could very well come into play down the road.
 
IMHO the main issue is not licensing, personalities, buyouts, or technology features. All those things are real, but not the central issue.

Time to market. The Apple-fied version of ZFS didn't progress very quickly by making it open source and it was, as many have posted here, lacking key elements for a crossover FS. Sun itself has working ZFS as a server FS with its associated license fees, and Sun is pretty short on value-added to begin with.

Since Apple's real goal is to go to market with a FS that does in reality what TM does in GUI, and to have it lean forward enough to support large transaction rates, large file transfers, cloud computing and a variety of other check boxes such as security, encryption, fail-over, and speed.

Apple is building an entirely new and larger campus facility in Cupertino, has the old Worldcom Telco facility up there too, is building a massive data center in NC to service the areas 2000 miles from there. One wonders if they will also be building one in Japan or Singapore soon as well.

Rocketman
 
Does anyone remember the early OS X marketing machine which said that it would be possible to boot into Windows from Mac OS X without needing a restart?

I am guessing this was to do with ZFS? Something to do with multiple boot environments perhaps, snapshots... or using ZFS as boot/root filesystem?

But then, that boot without restart feature was cancelled and removed from the Apple website.... then ZFS was going to be Mac OS X Server-only feature... and then it was pulled completely from SL. So maybe this tells us something... that Apple did have in mind what the (initial) consumer aspect of ZFS would be... and that it would also be useful for Mac OS X Server storage perhaps.

Personally, I never expected Apple to have OS X booting from a ZFS filesystem... BUT I did expect to see read/write support for ZFS in Snow Leopard. Apple got a long away along with having read/write support working. It was working just fine in 10a286... and that was back in MARCH! With a few extra revisions it would have been perfect.
 
Stop being such a technology fanboy. Go ready up on the limitations of ZFS:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZFS#Limitations

It has missing functionality such as encryption support and it does not seem to be a good fit for systems with removable media. It is also counterintuitive for the average user to grasp the concept that drives are part of a "pool". Finally, it is prone to fragmentation.

Given all of the problems and lack of completeness, I cannot understand how anyone in their right mind would advocate using ZFS for any system at this time. I think that ZFS, should it continue to be developed, could be a useful FS for a SAN device but I don't see it as ever being a good fit for a desktop OS.

Seriously, you fanboys need to stop jumping on the bandwagon of every new technology you hear about. ZFS is not an end user filesystem.

Nobody here has given a single valid reason to use ZFS over HFS+ on a desktop. I'm looking at you "I WAS the one". Your one line comment did not tell us anything.

Encryption support is done and will be integrated into a release soon. As for one reason to use it? I already said it. Checksumming. Would be nice to know if your data is corrupted or not. If you can't grasp that, then all hope is lost.
 
I'm trying to understand this. Apple doesn't want to pay license fees to Sun for an amazing file system that is much better than anything on the market? And, Apple has over a billion dollars cash reserve in the bank? And they charge a premium for their computers that could easily offset the license fees? Makes no sense.

$34 billion, I think. It does make one wonder. :confused:
 
Sun (java) has a market cap of about $6.9B which is about triple what it was earlier this year.

Oracle (orcl) has a market cap of about $110.5B which is about 50% higher than it was earlier this year.

Apple (aapl) could buy a $6.9B stock with a stock swap of about 3.8% of outstanding stock or roughly about 20% of its unincumbered cash.

Rocketman
 
Thing is, if you look at the Sun page covering the law suit, (IANAL) it seems that the PTO told NetApp to get screwed, that Sun isn't infringing on any of their patents. So I don't get why Apple would give up unless they're not getting anywhere with negotiations with Sun/Oracle.

And am I the only one who sees Sun's demise with sorrow? Apple has had a LOOOOONG history with Sun... Going back to the Apple 2 days when the LaserWriter printer was actually a rebadged Sun printer. (Maybe even farther back than that!)
 
Isn't the real reason obvious to everyone?

What was the "high end" computer announcement from Apple this week?

- Yes, now the mini has two laptop drives and they call it a server.

:rolleyes: Don't be obtuse. The Mac Mini Server is a "server" in the same way that this is a server:

http://www.hp.com/united-states/campaigns/mediasmart-server/

Does it compete? We shall see. And besides, I thought the high end announcement this week an iMac with a 27-inch display, an IPS panel, a maximum 16 gigs of RAM, and a desktop (!) core i7 processor.

But it wont have teh zfs!

Too bad for OS X Server, but really: I know it's hard to accept for some people, but I'd imagine Apple didn't want to bet the farm around a filesystem embroiled in a legal dispute, owned by a company currently in a massive state of flux. Blame the lawyers.
 
:rolleyes: Don't be obtuse. The Mac Mini Server is a "server" in the same way that this is a server:
The new mini is actually responsive to customer feedback. Now that macs talk to optical drives wirelessly and via internet too, there is no need to have one on board for many people. There is also network distribution of software.

Firms like MacCoLoCo who buy hundreds of mini's and who don't need optical drives are perfectly suited to this approach.

You guys finally got what you want.

Hey does it do software RAID?

The mini is the automotive Mac. Is it possible to put SSD's in there? :D

Rocketman
 
This is disappointing, but it doesn't mean Apple didn't make some headway in multiple directions. One direction I could hypothesize is that ZFS may not be the new fs, but it may have imparted design ideas and structural applications to something Apple is developing. Due to the announcement of Chrome OS, I bet Apple is reevaluating its fs needs for itself internally (iTunes/App Store, MobileMe) and end users. The space between where 3 party networking exists (MS Windows Live, MS college campus networks, Google Docs etc.). The FS needs to be slimmed, maintain level of legacy compatibility (which will be eased with the ax to Carbon), and provide redundancy, snapshots, compression, and work better on Flash drives. Basically all the ZFS features. I could see a new FS in 10.7 that seems to meet these for consumers. Then adding some features for the Server edition. Add a new GUI that looks like the iPhone and iPods OS GUI, and we've got a new OS X. It may not be a revolutionary as people seem to expect from Apple, but hey, its what would work!
 
Sun (java) has a market cap of about $6.9B which is about triple what it was earlier this year.

Oracle (orcl) has a market cap of about $110.5B which is about 50% higher than it was earlier this year.

Apple (aapl) could buy a $6.9B stock with a stock swap of about 3.8% of outstanding stock or roughly about 20% of its unincumbered cash.

Rocketman

That's quite an expensive filesystem.
 
Stop being such a technology fanboy. Go ready up on the limitations of ZFS:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZFS#Limitations

It has missing functionality such as encryption support and it does not seem to be a good fit for systems with removable media. It is also counterintuitive for the average user to grasp the concept that drives are part of a "pool". Finally, it is prone to fragmentation.

Given all of the problems and lack of completeness, I cannot understand how anyone in their right mind would advocate using ZFS for any system at this time. I think that ZFS, should it continue to be developed, could be a useful FS for a SAN device but I don't see it as ever being a good fit for a desktop OS.

Seriously, you fanboys need to stop jumping on the bandwagon of every new technology you hear about. ZFS is not an end user filesystem.

Nobody here has given a single valid reason to use ZFS over HFS+ on a desktop. I'm looking at you "I WAS the one". Your one line comment did not tell us anything.
If you really know all this stuff as you claim to, you should know the answers. But I'll give you a couple: checksumming and block level snapshots with COW. To the former, if you think data integrity is unimportant, well, I don't even know where to start.

Regarding your other comments regarding the "problems and lack of completeness", I will just tell you that my organization has been using ZFS in production for over 3 years (on Solaris) with great results. One of our ZFS servers, running a big MySQL database, has an uptime of over 3 years. I upgraded one of our other servers with the latest Solaris 10 update and we now have ZFS-enabled live upgrade. That means it uses snapshots with COW to do an online upgrade, and then you just reboot into the new system. If there's a problem, you go right back to the old one. Works very well, and keeps downtime to a minimum. A full operating system upgrade results in about 10 minutes of downtime.
 
Does anyone remember the early OS X marketing machine which said that it would be possible to boot into Windows from Mac OS X without needing a restart?

I am guessing this was to do with ZFS? Something to do with multiple boot environments perhaps, snapshots... or using ZFS as boot/root filesystem?

But then, that boot without restart feature was cancelled and removed from the Apple website....

No, I don't remember it as it was never on Apples site, "Boot without restart" was always a fanboy speculation... Was said to use a HyperVisor which would underly both OS'es and just switch between them in a hibernation state fashion (Drop OS X RAM contents to disk, read back Windows RAM contents and make the switch, and do the other way around to switch back).

That is, virtualization with a twist, but never, ever, advertised from apple...
 
If you really know all this stuff as you claim to, you should know the answers. But I'll give you a couple: checksumming and block level snapshots with COW. To the former, if you think data integrity is unimportant, well, I don't even know where to start.

Regarding your other comments regarding the "problems and lack of completeness", I will just tell you that my organization has been using ZFS in production for over 3 years (on Solaris) with great results. One of our ZFS servers, running a big MySQL database, has an uptime of over 3 years. I upgraded one of our other servers with the latest Solaris 10 update and we now have ZFS-enabled live upgrade. That means it uses snapshots with COW to do an online upgrade, and then you just reboot into the new system. If there's a problem, you go right back to the old one. Works very well, and keeps downtime to a minimum. A full operating system upgrade results in about 10 minutes of downtime.

He's a simpleton. Tell him that when Apple releases a new iMac and updates its servers, rather than waiting a few hours to view it, he only has to wait a few minutes.

No way he understands or cares about if DMV has 10 errors a year or 100,000. He already thinks they suck. But doesn't understand why.

:D

Rocketman
 
This is not aways good....

This not always a good thing. Lately Apple has been stagnant with "wow" features in both it's software and hardware with only minor upgrades and add-ons. We heard this before and had high hopes for the new and improved Shake (code name: "Phenomenon"). Mograph editors patiently waited for years only to be duped by Motion 4. Most of us have moved on to something new like Nuke, but it would have been real nice if Apple actually came out with a new and improved Shake as promised.
:(
 
No, I don't remember it as it was never on Apples site, "Boot without restart" was always a fanboy speculation... Was said to use a HyperVisor which would underly both OS'es and just switch between them in a hibernation state fashion (Drop OS X RAM contents to disk, read back Windows RAM contents and make the switch, and do the other way around to switch back).

That is, virtualization with a twist, but never, ever, advertised from apple...
It was DEFINITELY on the Apple website... I remember seeing it!
 
This is disappointing, but it doesn't mean Apple didn't make some headway in multiple directions. One direction I could hypothesize is that ZFS may not be the new fs, but it may have imparted design ideas and structural applications to something Apple is developing. Due to the announcement of Chrome OS, I bet Apple is reevaluating its fs needs for itself internally (iTunes/App Store, MobileMe) and end users. The space between where 3 party networking exists (MS Windows Live, MS college campus networks, Google Docs etc.). The FS needs to be slimmed, maintain level of legacy compatibility (which will be eased with the ax to Carbon), and provide redundancy, snapshots, compression, and work better on Flash drives. Basically all the ZFS features. I could see a new FS in 10.7 that seems to meet these for consumers. Then adding some features for the Server edition. Add a new GUI that looks like the iPhone and iPods OS GUI, and we've got a new OS X. It may not be a revolutionary as people seem to expect from Apple, but hey, its what would work!

File System projects are multi-year commitments. This project is at least 5 years old. They didn't reevaluate after Google's announcement.
 
it does not seem to be a good fit for systems with removable media

It wouldn't be very sensible to allow users to mix removable and non-removable storage in the same pool, but there's no reason the OS couldn't create a new pool for each removable device.

It is also counterintuitive for the average user to grasp the concept that drives are part of a "pool"

Why should that be exposed to the end user? Apple added the ability (some might prefer the term "smelly hack") to hard-link directories in order to make Time Machine work, but that doesn't mean the "average user" needs to know about it. Implementation != interface.

Finally, it is prone to fragmentation.

I've personally not seen any data on how quickly ZFS file systems become fragmented. Do you have a source for this other than Wikipedia, which has no citation for the claim?

I think that ZFS, should it continue to be developed, could be a useful FS for a SAN device but I don't see it as ever being a good fit for a desktop OS.

Then you're suffering from a lack of imagination:

  • Lightweight snapshots ala ZFS are much preferred to monkeying around with directory hard links. If Time Machine were implemented with snapshots then a single-byte change to a large file would result in just one block being backed up rather than the entire file;
  • Writable snapshots mean an instant "working copy" can be made of an entire directory tree. If you screw something up you can roll back instantly. You can even have multiple incarnations of the same tree, all sharing the unmodified blocks thus minimizing the space consumed;
  • ZFS's on-the-fly compression results in smaller files on disk, which results in greater throughput -- often much greater, depending on the data;
  • ZFS adapts to the characteristics of the installed physical devices, meaning if you have a small-but-fast SSD and a big-but-slow HDD installed in your computer then ZFS will store frequently accessed files on the SSD. This has the potential to speed up much disk IO by orders of magnitude;
  • ZFS's checksumming and online scrubbing eliminates the possibility of undetected data corruption between the platter and RAM. If you value your data then this is an important feature;
  • ZFS is transactional, which eliminates the possibility of file system corruption due to kernel panic, power failure etc. and means no waiting around for a file system check on next boot.

To sum up: ZFS is faster, more reliable and less smelly than HFS. That's a lot of win even for desktop machines.

Personally I was looking forward to being able to use a modern, efficient and featureful file system in a userland that doesn't suck (i.e. not Solaris). Let's be honest: HFS is showing its age, and there's only so much lipstick you can smear on anything before it starts to look a bit silly.
 
$34 billion, I think. It does make one wonder. :confused:
Yes, it makes one wonder if it isn't a serious legal issue as John Gruber claims, rather than something petty as you imply.

Whether the decision to kill ZFS is related to Sun's patent lawsuits against NetApp or their acquisition by Oracle, it's a pretty safe bet that something in the business or legal climate around ZFS has changed since Apple first started playing with it.
 
Considering that Sun encountered a number of difficulties adapting ZFS to be a native, bootable FS on their own OS, I didn't think it was ever likely to make it as a bootable default on Mac OS. HFS has stood up surprising well, considering its age--as has NTFS (which started out life as HPFS for OS2).

No matter how many bits they added to FAT, it still sucked.
 
I hope that this isn't really the end, as I do think HFS+ should be end of life, and putting more lipstick on it is a clunky solution. Apple has had a way of dragging legacy people kicking and screaming into the future, but letting people languish under HFS while ZFS is out there? It's like Microsoft.

So what exactly is wrong with HFS+, in your esteemed opinion, especially with the recent enhancements made in Snow Leopard?

Does anyone remember the early OS X marketing machine which said that it would be possible to boot into Windows from Mac OS X without needing a restart?

I am guessing this was to do with ZFS? Something to do with multiple boot environments perhaps, snapshots... or using ZFS as boot/root filesystem?

Not at all. All that you need is a deep sleep mode both for MacOS X and for Windows that is one hundred percent reliable. Usually in deep sleep mode a computer is physically turned off, and when you reboot the computer, it just reads the saved state from the hard drive and re-initializes all the hardware. In this case, at any given time one OS would be running (or in sleep mode), while the other is in deep sleep mode. Then you press a button, the running OS goes in deep sleep mode, the other OS awakes from deep sleep.

With 2 GB of RAM this would be a bit slow (writing 2 GB to hard drive, then reading 2 GB for the other OS), but no big technical problem. It's just that the switching must be 100% reliable.

The lacking features have been mentioned several times! Read the entire thread, THEN post something!

Well, clever one, I've read a few opinions. There is the problem that users with 32 GB virtual machine files using Time Machine have: Well, there is a problem: The Macintosh _cannot_ know when the VM storage is in a consistent state. So using ZFS cleverness to backup or snapshot only the parts of the VM that have changed doesn't actually give you anything that is useful. To do that, the virtual machine must know the times when the hard drive state is consistent (which is hard) and at that point there are much better ways for the VM to handle this without any file system support.

Next is the general problem with snapshots. So anyone tell me how snapshots work if I have a hard drive in my MacBook containing all my data, and an external drive with a backup, and after a snapshot I want to be safe if _either_ my MacBook drive _or_ my external drive is completely destroyed?

It's easy to read a feature list and get all excited; it is a lot more difficult to translate that feature list into real life advantages.
 
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