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kdarling

macrumors P6
you misunderstand the nature of the beast. that it was done IRL (in real life) has no bearing on digital innovation. figuring out how to do it on glass and bits is entirely different than IRL, regardless of conceptual similarities.

Good point. Sometimes that's true. However, with decades of experience doing touch devices, I think I do understand the nature of these particular beasts.

speaking to someone is easy in IRL. doing so over chips was no minute task.

As someone who coded voice in the early days, I both agree and disagree. It's like with touch. Once you really get into a field, more and more idea paths become clear. Filing patents when you first get into a field is often just making a mockery of others' work before you... unless you make a breakthrough (which did not happen here).

Slide-to-unlock is particularly nowhere near that level. It is trivial, derivative, apes a simple real life action, and Apple's idea that it's worth hundreds of millions of dollars is just silly when compared to the other estimated 250,000 inventions in a phone. Apple argues that Motorola starting rate of 2.4% is too high for critical radio inventions, but wants 5% of a $600 phone for its own, unnecessary patents... which others have already worked around anyway.

I invite you to read a recent Foss Patents article. After years of stubbornly defending Apple's lawsuits, even Mueller has come around to realizing that Apple has an inflated idea of its own patents. He now uses the same descriptive phrases that some of us have used since day one:

"There comes a point when failure after failure is just too much, and I recognize that I had overestimated the leverage Apple could gain from its patents (the next post will address this more generally but I wanted to start with "slide to unlock", which is so instructive and symptomatic -- a poster child of Apple's problems)."

- 10 European judges found Apple had not invented slide-to-unlock (star patent at Samsung trial) - Foss Patents

Again, there can be inventive software patents, but way too many are vague, general ideas instead of detailed, novel, unique implementations. They use fancy words to hide it, but they boil down to being something even a layman would easily come up with. I'll give an example a little later when I properly wake up.

Cheers!
 
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bearcatrp

macrumors 68000
Sep 24, 2008
1,733
69
Boon Docks USA
Took apple years to develope rounded corners, then had the gull to patent it? How many times has apple been dragged into court for ripping off someone elses design? Swiss watch ring a bell (http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2012/10/12/apple-pays-up-for-lifting-the-design-of-a-swiss-clock/) . Apple is just as bad as samsung when it comes to ripping off other designs. When apple rips off someone elses stuff, you fanboys defend apple as it was a little oversight or the other company shouldn't be allowed to do this. But when someone does it to apple, the fanboys want blood. Still waiting for apple to blame amazon for ripping off there idea to bring a better way to stream to the home.
 

Saturn007

macrumors 65816
Jul 18, 2010
1,449
1,313
I asked this on another thread but got no reply.. Can you list maybe a top 10 of what they have stolen.. if its true they have copied loads of stuff it shudnt be too hard.. thanks in advance..

Just take a look at Samsung's 132-page internal engineering document where they went through analyzing each iPhone feature and figuring out to incorporate it into their supposedly "original" smartphones! Page after page shows them figuring out how to rip off the iPhone! You'll see scores of examples of where they copied. Once you've gone through it, you'll never ask such a question again.

See

http://appleinsider.com/articles/12...g_galaxy_s_with_iphone_admitted_into_evidence

and

http://bgr.com/2012/08/08/apple-samsung-patent-lawsuit-internal-report-copy-iphone/

It's the smoking gun that Samsung is the tech world's greatest copycat artist!
 

silentmajority

macrumors member
May 3, 2013
53
12
I don't understand this mock outrage over the term 'normal people. I just took that as the majority of Apples customers don't want to spend several hours learning how to use their devices. They want to open the box and be able to use it in the way that it was meant to be used in seconds or minutes.

It's the simplicity and ease of use that make Apple products so popular. It's simple to print something off my iPad. It's easy to mirror a movie off my mac onto my TV via Apple TV. Their track pads are also easy to use, and you can see other computers creating similar pads for their products. Normal people have families and jobs, and they believe that when they spend good money on a decent product it should work with ease and excellence, and that is what I believe Apple meant when they said they develop their products for normal people.
 

Rafterman

Contributor
Apr 23, 2010
6,841
8,143
Just take a look at Samsung's 132-page internal engineering document where they went through analyzing each iPhone feature and figuring out to incorporate it into their supposedly "original" smartphones! Page after page shows them figuring out how to rip off the iPhone! You'll see scores of examples of where they copied. Once you've gone through it, you'll never ask such a question again.

See

http://appleinsider.com/articles/12...g_galaxy_s_with_iphone_admitted_into_evidence

and

http://bgr.com/2012/08/08/apple-samsung-patent-lawsuit-internal-report-copy-iphone/

It's the smoking gun that Samsung is the tech world's greatest copycat artist!

And if someone did the research, they could find 100 things Apple ripped (e.g., the pulling the top of the screen down to see widget types things feature). In fact, Apple going to 4.7 inch (Galaxy S-x) and 5.5 inch (Galaxy Note) screens is very Samsung-like.

And of course, the smartphone itself was the invention of Palm and Microsoft. And heck, Captain Sisko from Star Trek as using an "iPad" back in the 1990s.

Don't confuse obvious ideas with innovation.

By the way, you do know that Samsung engineers a large percentage of parts that go into many Apple products, right?
 

ogun7

macrumors regular
Sep 20, 2001
187
57
And what exactly does that setting indicate?

On another note
My god you people will absolutely bitch about anything won't you. I really have never seen in one place such a bunch of whiny people.

You, my friend are a gentleman(lady?) and a scholar. You expressed my sentiments exactly. For the whiners, what 300 million unit selling device have THEY created?
 

candle

macrumors member
Sep 5, 2013
46
2
... because we worked really really hard on this, for a long time, we are entitled to ....
 

Cyborg21

macrumors 6502
Sep 2, 2013
332
0
Both correct. In fact, the Neonode's swipe-to-unlock back in 2002 was the reason why German courts invalidated Apple's patent.

Btw, a Dutch judge also dismissed Apple's patent, by noting that it was not conceptually different than the slide-to-turn-on virtual power switches used in industrial touch applications for decades:

View attachment 467467

Of course, the Neonode wasn't the first to allow a general swipe gesture to unlock. (Although they specifically used a left-to-right swipe.) Gesture unlocking dates back years before that. It was quite a popular add-on to touchscreen PDAs during the late 1990s.

As for slide-to-unlock in general, I don't think anyone (even Neonode) should be able to patent a common action taken every day, just because it's copied onto a screen and made prettier:

View attachment 467466

As for Apple employee claims, I think this poster sums it all up:

View attachment 467462

What if I told you, it's not just slide-to-unlock gesture, it's about lock screen?
 

BvizioN

macrumors 603
Mar 16, 2012
5,701
4,819
Manchester, UK
In fact, Apple going to 4.7 inch (Galaxy S-x) and 5.5 inch (Galaxy Note) screens is very Samsung-like.

So wait a second.... we do have patent for display sizes now??? If that's the case then Samsung has tried all sizes so it's the winner :D:D

By the way, you do know that Samsung engineers a large percentage of parts that go into many Apple products, right?

Now this one is just as relevant as knowing who's brushes or paint did Leonardo da Vinci used when he created the Mona Lisa masterpiece. Translation: Who cares!

The whole universe (including the parallel ones) knows that Samsung is a master of the copycat art ;) :D
 

kdarling

macrumors P6
And it was a good thing they did so. Otherwise we'd all be using a stylus and trying to poke at little things on our screen.

I think there'd be some devices still like that. However, as noted already, everyone in the industry knew that finger-friendly capacitive screens were the coming thing for consumer devices:

"the mobile phone market is almost ripe for an explosion in touch sensitive user interfaces and, when it comes, it will be capacitive technology that dominates."

2006_touch_prediction.gif

"We expect most demand to come from finger-sensitive technology built into high-end feature phones. This will be a significant shift from today's wireless PDA segment, where most stylus-driven touch screen devices can be found."

- Strategy Analytics, June 2006

What if I told you, it's not just slide-to-unlock gesture, it's about lock screen?

The slide-to-unlock patent is not about lock screens, which already existed. As I noted, gesture unlock screens were all the rage around the turn of the century as a security option... until it was noticed that such repeated gestures often left a visible marking trail, at which point their popularity for security disappeared as quickly as it had come.
 

ghost of jobs

macrumors regular
Apr 4, 2014
223
0
Just take a look at Samsung's 132-page internal engineering document where they went through analyzing each iPhone feature and figuring out to incorporate it into their supposedly "original" smartphones! Page after page shows them figuring out how to rip off the iPhone! You'll see scores of examples of where they copied. Once you've gone through it, you'll never ask such a question again.

See

http://appleinsider.com/articles/12...g_galaxy_s_with_iphone_admitted_into_evidence

and

http://bgr.com/2012/08/08/apple-samsung-patent-lawsuit-internal-report-copy-iphone/

It's the smoking gun that Samsung is the tech world's greatest copycat artist!

For the 2nd time, it's the s5 which was accused of copying loads of ideas badly.. not the s2 3 years earlier which we all know about... Anyone?...
If no one has a decent answer ill assume it was the propaganda ramblings of someone just basically lieing to get up votes... Which is kinda sad really...
 

bzero

macrumors member
Apr 1, 2014
42
0
I hardly remember nowadays how much thought went into the iPhone. The home button and power button seem so standard now. And don't forget the non-huge screen :p

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They ruined it by making it better ?!

Buttons that you can't even see and colors that collide as much as your avatar's do is not "better". I wiped some of that crap away with my jailbreak + iOS 6 theme as quickly as I could, and now you've even gotta stay away from app updates too. Is this the same Jony Ive who designed the iMac?!
 

pedromcm.pm

macrumors 6502
Mar 23, 2014
483
0
Porto, Portugal
Slide-to-unlock is particularly nowhere near that level. It is trivial, derivative, apes a simple real life action, and Apple's idea that it's worth hundreds of millions of dollars is just silly when compared to the other estimated 250,000 inventions in a phone. Apple argues that Motorola starting rate of 2.4% is too high for critical radio inventions, but wants 5% of a $600 phone for its own, unnecessary patents... which others have already worked around anyway.

Clearly you have 0 qualifications and knowledge to talk about the matter. In this day and age, what makes an iPhone different than a Nokia 3310 is much more valuable than what made a Nokia 3310 being different than a rock.

The Bugatti Veyron is a car. So is a Fiat Punto. What sets them apart is much more valuable today than what sets the Model T apart from a horse, TODAY.

If you can't comprehend that, I bet you are retired, giving way more value to what your father did, to what your son might do. What was done 100 years ago belongs to that time. You have to put things in context.

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Buttons that you can't even see and colors that collide as much as your avatar's do is not "better". I wiped some of that crap away with my jailbreak + iOS 6 theme as quickly as I could, and now you've even gotta stay away from app updates too. Is this the same Jony Ive who designed the iMac?!

People fear change. Some people said the exact same thing that you are saying when they were comparing Symbian and iOS. you adapted to iOS, and now that everybody learned how to use smartphones and their software, it's time to give preference to what makes software a better option, a better way.

There's no need for a Note app to resemble a notebook, anymore. Besides, software like this is necessary for better support of multiple screen resolutions, otherwise you have the same crap that you still do have in Android.
 

Menneisyys2

macrumors 603
Jun 7, 2011
5,997
1,101
There is this belief that the average person now understands computers and we should stop assuming the entire world is stupid. Having done support off and on for years, I can assure you people still don't know what a left-click is, a right-click is, "did you mean double-click with the left button or the right-button," etc... I can tell you that the world surely does need things dumbed down.

HOWEVER, it would be nice to have a "pro mode" that can be activated by someone who simply understands how to dig through the menus to turn it on (so it's not turned on by mistake). More so on the iPad, it would be nice to have LIMITED dual-app support, such as a small video window while web surfing or something, as well as file system and SD card (without an attachment).

Exactly - after all, as I've explained above, this is what Samsung does (albeit in the opposite direction - they allow for dumbing down Android / their UI to make it more accessible to the non-tech-savvy.)

Nevertheless, I really don't think Apple will implement this. It'd cater for the minority only. And Apple is known for not wanting to spend money (and a Pro mode would require a serious investment - think of windowing support, a LOT of code to port / fine-tune) on 2...5% minorities. See the fate of the 17" MBP, for example...

We can only have hope in JB tweak developers for absolutely stunning goodies like Quasar was back in the iOS5 times, noone else. Apple will not give us what we want.
 

spjonez

macrumors member
Nov 15, 2013
90
3
Another good example is bounceback.

Ever seen what the item list on a slot machine reel does when it comes to the end of its scrolling? Yep, it first goes past the end position, then it bounces back into place!

YouTube: video

When we were developing electronic casino slots back in the early '90s, something seemed to be missing. Aha, I said, where's the slot reel bounceback like in the real machines? So we programmed that in. Totally unnecessary, but cooler than coming to an instant stop. Sound familiar?
I see this patent debated a lot, and personally I feel it's completely valid. The effect you linked is only similar in that it's a bounce. Conceptually, you were trying to replicate the movement a real world object. Apple's implementation is for gesture based feedback. Elasticity gives UX a much smoother feel and has nothing to do with manipulating an object in real life.

We've had UI's since the 70s and nobody else thought to add bounce back to a scrollable computing device. Apple does it, other OEM's see just how much better it makes the experience and copy it. If you look at each patent in a vacuum it paints Apple as a lunatic. When you combine all those patents together however, you see the collective advantage they bring to Apple who was an underdog at the time of release. If they had only copied one or two elements this lawsuit would never have happened. That's why they aren't suing anyone else, Samsung copied too many and they deserve to pay for blatantly doing so.

An analogy I like to use is the Ford Mustang. Say you are an engineer who spends 5y+ developing the 2015 model. 2 months after it's release Toyota releases a clone. Same body, grill, head/tail lights, but they change a few elements of the interior. From a distance they look like the same car. Would you sue to protect your flagship model or chalk it up to friendly competition?
 
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melendezest

Suspended
Jan 28, 2010
1,693
1,579
For you (as it can clearly be seen on your signature)
For me they made it better.

Exactly. Taste in OS is just that, taste. Something quite subjective.

What I find interesting is that with iOS 7 Apple divided its own camp, even driving (however many small amount of) users into the arms of the competition. This is certainly true in my household of 6.

Now, while I fall in the "I hate iOS 7" camp, I understand why some (most?) like it, as it retains enough to be familiar while changing enough to make it feel new. It certainly will appeal to a lot of new, if perhaps different (taste-wise) users.

However, I do feel that the change, as Tim pointed out, now assumes that the user relies on familiarity with the previous iteration of iOS. In contrast iOS didn't need that before. So, it could be interpreted that iOS 7 made things less "dummy-proof" than before. To me, in that regard, it is a step backward.

As it's always been the case with Apple:

Apple gives, and Apple takes away. ;)
 

zioxide

macrumors 603
Dec 11, 2006
5,737
3,726
COME ON APPLE, stop assuming the entire world is STUPID !!!!

The vast majority of the world IS stupid. Most of the world aren't techies on a tech forum and want something that is easy and straight forward to use. iOS can't be beat in that department. For a device as complex and with as many functions as the iPhone, the UI is one of the simplest man has ever designed.
 

bzero

macrumors member
Apr 1, 2014
42
0
People fear change. Some people said the exact same thing that you are saying when they were comparing Symbian and iOS.

That is the worst justification for an unwelcome change I have ever seen, and also the most frequently used one. It's the equivalent of saying that nothing new can ever be worse. The design flaws in iOS 7 are really apparent to anyone with even a small sense of design, and I think my physically sore eyes are fearing the color combinations, not the change.

Didn't someone say "new is easy, but better is difficult" or something like that?

----------

If you design something even an idiot can use, only idiots will find it useful.
-Engineer proverb

That doesn't make sense. Idiots can use shoes.
 

Mrjoedot

macrumors 6502
Dec 29, 2012
410
236
Asean market
I don't think it was made for normal people, but simply just people. like less complex, user-friendly, everyone knows how to use it thru the Apple presentation by its CEO and head of whatever-department over there. Why adding complexity to life, right? everything in the world is complex already. Government does that already to many of us for all I know.
Trust me it's not bias. I once was a Microsoft user for a long time, until a friend introduced it. Her key-sentence was and I quote "It's user-friendly that you would not think Microsoft is easy anymore." and I agree

Perhaps, the reason so many people still believes MS is way easier is just because we were used to it for a longtime. Thanks to Bill for taking ideas from Steve. That happened

for everyone's sake, it's my opinion. keep it neutral. I'm opened for opinions
 

bzero

macrumors member
Apr 1, 2014
42
0
There's no need for a Note app to resemble a notebook, anymore. Besides, software like this is necessary for better support of multiple screen resolutions, otherwise you have the same crap that you still do have in Android.

I never said anything about the notes app or skeumorphism. Yes, the notes app is annoyingly realistic; I'd rather have regular black on white like a word processor (at least as an option!). There's no problem with removing skeumorphism as long as they replace it with something that's actually better, or at least NOT horrible. But no, they decided that anything faintly resembling a real-life object needed to be replaced with some garbage that takes extra thinking to use and looks ugly at the same time.

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Samsung has stolen so many things from the iPhone, they should pay a hefty price.

No fine is going to hurt Samsung enough though, because they already threw money into the game and got a nice chunk of the market share.

Not going to happen it seems. They made knockoffs, modified enough to not look illegal. Even the names "S4, S5" being reversed versions of "4S, 5S"… geez.

Let's at least hope Huawei gets shut down. They copy the iPhone AND Android stuff without even giving a d*** about making it look legal. They even made fake Cisco routers (yes, clones with stolen software) back in the day.
 
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