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This thread is pure gold.
I fully expected Apple's new policy to not go down well.

The reality is that people have now tasted the forbidden apple (heh) and does not want to spit it out.
Talented people will start moving to companies that offer WFH. Don't expect talent to cling to Apple at all costs, there are many tech companies that will pay equal or more than Apple, and offer just as much challenge, while letting you WFH.
Spotify has decided to let anyone who wants to keep WFH, I fully expect a lot of other tech companies to follow suit.
Why work for a company that forces you to live in high expense areas just so you can fill their expensive office space?

I have no doubt Apple can "succeed" in bringing the workers back, but will it still be the talent they need?
Sure, there are a lot of people who'd gladly come work at Apple and be in the office 5 days a week or more, but they don't work for Apple now, there's gotta be a reason for that, perhaps they were deemed not talented enough?
As a tech company, is "willing to work in office space" really the kind of employee requirement that makes your company successful?

My guess: Apple's PR department is now working overtime (from home) to spin this so that Tim Cook can announce their new all-WFH policy as a major breakthrough in workplace satisfaction and environment achievement any time soon.

Apple are allowing employees to work from home though? They haven’t stopped it and many in this thread don’t appear to have read the article properly. If an employer offers an amazing environment with as much safety measures possible, why wouldn’t an employee want to come in for 2 or 3 days a week whilst still keeping the perk of being able to also work from home?
 
The reality is that people have now tasted the forbidden apple (heh) and does not want to spit it out.
Talented people will start moving to companies that offer WFH. Don't expect talent to cling to Apple at all costs, there are many tech companies that will pay equal or more than Apple, and offer just as much challenge, while letting you WFH.
Spotify has decided to let anyone who wants to keep WFH, I fully expect a lot of other tech companies to follow suit.
Why work for a company that forces you to live in high expense areas just so you can fill their expensive office space?.

I don’t see it as a bad thing. It is what it is. Things can always change in the future, and for now, I will continue to give Apple the benefit of a doubt that it currently is not designed to operate optimally under a decentralised structure where the bulk of their workforce are working from home. Apple’s employees need to learn to look beyond their own immediate wants and consider the bigger picture.

In this context, assuming that Apple is indeed acting from the position that its current arrangement is what will allow it to create the best products possible, then I feel that Apple needs to hold the line and let everyone know what while it understands why many people would prefer a WFH arrangement, it is currently not feasible because of constraints with regards to its product design process.

Apple stands for design. To the people willing to go the distance to help Apple make the best products possible, I salute you.

If anyone here is reading this and currently works for Apple and is not happy with their WFH policy, then do by all means jump ship to Spotify or Basecamp or Facebook or some other tech company who does offer the ideal working conditions that you so desire.

Rather than stay on and continue to be unhappy and bitter, may as well give up that job vacancy to someone else who is willing to accommodate Apple’s terms so that everyone can get back to work and make the products that I love to use.

Parting is not always a bad thing, just as it may not be a bad thing for a couple who has grown distant to divorce each other rather than cling on to a bad relationship.

And life goes on.
 
Seems like experiences of the future make people want to stay there. Who knew people wouldn't want minders over their shoulder? Kind of like the green cities we got during the lockdown. Who wouldn't want to live in that future green reality?

And let's face it, the iPhone made working from home possible in the first place. I say embrace it. Or else.

Or else face a cultish workplace full of needy people who need in person validation. Imagine, an entire workplace full of "that guy" or "that girl".

Uh… working from home is the past, and way, way past-ier than working at any office.

You kinda forgot about those first couple hundred thousand years of human evolution, didn’t cha?

Offices are an example of progress and evolution from the days of working at home.

The people with a spouse and lots of children will be able to spread their workload across the family and produce cheaper, quicker work, from home. Which among other things, would shift women back to a mostly child production / caretaker role, while limiting the career/life choices for children who were essential for maintaining the work, from home.
Not a great plan.
 
I met a guy this past weekend who has been working for apple remotely here in Hawaii for years now.

They do offer WFH if you are talented enough.
 
It is if the employer says it is. The employee works for them and not the other way around. If the employer would rather their staff were present in the office, then that’s the way it is.
No. If an employer says they need/want to

get people back into the work place and working collaboratively face to face again

That is an instruction. It may well be a requirement they set for their staff, but it isn't in and of itself, a reason.

A reason is what they should respond with, if some of the staff ask "why do we need to work in an office, if we're able to be productive working remotely".

A reason describes why something did or should happen, it doesn't instruct a person to do that thing.

It really isn’t unless you take it personally and decide to apply it to yourself.
You already applied it to anyone who doesn't ascribe to your personal idea of the ideal working environment:
I think it’s good for business to get people back into the work place and working collaboratively face to face again. Sure you may get the odd unsociable person who dislikes people contact but in most environments it’s a team that needs physical presence to break down barriers.

Factory floor staff often complain staff in the offices are paid more than them when all they do is ‘sit down all day’ as they say.
Great, so at the same time you explain to them that they're doing a different job, with different requirements, in a different working environment, you can explain to the people who aren't able to work remotely, that they too are doing a different job, with different requirements in a different working environment.

See? How hard was that? And as many people have claimed in this thread: if they don't like that they specifically are actually required to be in the office for one/some/all of the tasks their job entails, they can go find another job.

It’s funny you should mention hardware as I had to justify recently why my Dell workstation cost £3.5k when many of the production computers only cost £600. That the problem with people not completely understanding what others actually do.
So it sounds like people working remotely ins't really the problem here. Its that your staff are all clueless about what others do, and thus feel like they aren't getting a fair deal.

n my experience companies still operate face to face contact and even modern market leading companies. I think I’d get a rather confused reaction if I said we only ‘do Teams’ lol.

I don't know what "do Teams" means, but if your client relationships are somehow dependent on being able to tour them through an office to gawk at the people doing the work, that sounds like a pretty ****** deal for those people.

Measuring output and perception are sadly things that go had in hand, especially when it’s Directors making calls without understanding the job requirements.
So, confirmed, a ****** place to work with middle/upper management that have zero clue what their staff actually do, and thus absurd requirements about "bums on seats". You have my condolences, but that's all just a reason not to work for the company you work for, or one like it.


If you remove the pandemic from the equation, employees have even less leverage to justify working from home.
As the apocalypse 'winds down', we're going to see more of this very discussion all over the place.

Employees petitioning their employer for more flexible working arrangements, so that they can live their lives, and not just be drones in a ****ing office.

The employers are going to respond in a number of ways that ultimately boil down to just a couple of things:

Yes, sure, from now on <insert negotiated arrangement>

No, sorry, tasks X, Y and Z are fundamental to your job role and require you to be in the office.

No, just because.


I'm sure a lot will fall into the last category. I'm also sure that those employees will be looking for better opportunities elsewhere, sooner or later.
 
I just don’t understand why some would not want to go into a workplace and just work at home on their own
Because not everyone thinks the same way you do? It's really not a difficult concept to grasp.

There’s a lot to be said for interacting with people whilst in their presence, getting to know them properly and sharing off topic communication once in a while.

You do realise that people have been "interacting" and "communicating" with other people not physically in the same room for ****ing years right?

I think working from home should be here to stay, but not 5 days a week.
Or just maybe you aren't the arbiter of what's 'good' or 'worthwhile' or 'productive' for other people, and what you deem to be acceptable, applies to you.

If you get benefit from working in a physical office with a bunch of other people, good for you, but don't just assume everyone else is the same as you. I don't recall anyone saying "OK stooges, it's forced home detection work camp time. If I'm working remotely full time you will as well".
 
I did find at times Teams calls went on longer and were more frequent
And you've never been stuck in an in-person meeting that went longer than it should have?

The people with a spouse and lots of children will be able to spread their workload across the family and produce cheaper, quicker work, from home.
What fantasy world is this, where someone is doing a job that they can do remotely, but also that a literal child can do, but also that hasn't been replaced by a robot?
 
Because not everyone thinks the same way you do? It's really not a difficult concept to grasp.



You do realise that people have been "interacting" and "communicating" with other people not physically in the same room for ****ing years right?


Or just maybe you aren't the arbiter of what's 'good' or 'worthwhile' or 'productive' for other people, and what you deem to be acceptable, applies to you.

If you get benefit from working in a physical office with a bunch of other people, good for you, but don't just assume everyone else is the same as you. I don't recall anyone saying "OK stooges, it's forced home detection work camp time. If I'm working remotely full time you will as well".
I think you've taken my comments literally and applied it to your own situation and struggle to accept I have a different opinion to you. You're getting quite angry in your responses and up until now I have enjoyed the fact its been civil. I would have quite enjoyed answering each of your points but unfortunately its the end of the road for this conversation. All the best :)
 
I wonder what Steve Jobs would have done with this - I wonder if all the people who created the letter would get a box of all their personal belongings FedEx'd to them!
As it should be. This is what happens when the culture has raised a bunch of snowflakes. They think everything is up for debate. It's not. Goto work under the terms the employer requires or go find another job.
 
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As it should be. This is what happens when the culture has raised a bunch of snowflakes. They think everything is up for debate. It's not. Goto work under the terms the employer requires or go find another job.
Yeah exactly, when you work for a company you accept the job on their terms. Working from home had its place during the pandemic and was a perk many of us have had for years, but it’s not a right. Some people work solely remotely and there is nothing wrong with that. A lot of people in IT based roles and freelance contractors work from their homes and it works. It works in a lot of companies when the time is split, much like where I work. However it would never be a right or rolled out to all staff because it doesn’t work for all. Some take the mick and when the pandemic hit, it quickly exposed those who were solely out for themselves.
 
It's time for the little Apple Employees to grow up and start doing some adulting. Many of us here would love to work at Apple Park, but can't. Hell the local store won't even hire me for some reason. With their group interviewing and the way they have conducted the 5 or 6 interviews I've gone too, all group style I don't know what they are looking for. Yet, the past few times I have been in a store I have taught their so-called specialists a thing or two about the product I was buying. In any case, if you don't want to actually go to work, then maybe it's time to leave. Remote work mat be fine and dandy but your employer who signs your paychecks does need to see you once in awhile. I have to show up at my job 506 days a week, I have no sympathy for those that are complaining about having to show up 3 days a week.
 
It's time for the little Apple Employees to grow up and start doing some adulting. Many of us here would love to work at Apple Park, but can't. Hell the local store won't even hire me for some reason. With their group interviewing and the way they have conducted the 5 or 6 interviews I've gone too, all group style I don't know what they are looking for. Yet, the past few times I have been in a store I have taught their so-called specialists a thing or two about the product I was buying. In any case, if you don't want to actually go to work, then maybe it's time to leave. Remote work mat be fine and dandy but your employer who signs your paychecks does need to see you once in awhile. I have to show up at my job 506 days a week, I have no sympathy for those that are complaining about having to show up 3 days a week.
Maybe you shouldn't be projecting your inability to get a job on employees that have one. I don't think the employees who are asking for more flexible WFH policies are the ones who prevented you from getting a job at an Apple Store.
 
Maybe you shouldn't be projecting your inability to get a job on employees that have one. I don't think the employees who are asking for more flexible WFH policies are the ones who prevented you from getting a job at an Apple Store.
That isn't what I was projecting, just saying that should be lucky they have a job at Apple, Apple Park in general and that there are many people out there like myself that would jump at the chance. I love where I work already, and have been there 18 years and there are thousands of people that dream about working here, Those Apple employees should be grateful that they are working at Apple Park.
 
interesting to see how hybrid working plays out for all organisations. I read in London, Canary Wharf I think it was, supposed to cater for around 400,000 people working there, down to 4,000 during covid, think of all those empty office blocks, unused public transport, shops and food/coffee outlets which have next to no customers. there's no doubt its not just the employer wishing people are coming back to the office, and soon.
 
I met a guy this past weekend who has been working for apple remotely here in Hawaii for years now.

They do offer WFH if you are talented enough.
And holding the right position (my guess is that he is not directly involved with product design) to be able to stay away from the office and not need to meet face to face for so long.
 
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It would be pointless sitting at a desk in a mask all day too. You’re not going to be at risk if the desks are suitably distanced and the office has good air flow. Most places require you to wear a mask if you leave your desk, not whilst sat at it.

And that is why it’s not as safe as a store run. I’m not going to put my mask and gloves on every 10 minutes so a person can walk to the bathroom but they need to walk behind my desk. This is the problem with open floor offices.
 
And that is why it’s not as safe as a store run. I’m not going to put my mask and gloves on every 10 minutes so a person can walk to the bathroom but they need to walk behind my desk. This is the problem with open floor offices.

This is why workplaces are using one way systems and plastic screens to divide workspaces. Along with that the wearing of masks and regular hand washing is in affect in socially distanced areas. This pandemic isn’t going away anytime soon and businesses quite rightly want to see the people they have employed return to the workplace, whether that is full time or in a part time basis. When an environment meets the criteria outlined by the HSE, I don’t see how a company can do any more to restore the trust of their employees?

The question should also be asked in the presence of HR; ‘what can the company do to make you feel comfortable with returning to work?’
 
Tim: guys we spent 87 billion dollars on this building, now haul your asses back in here.
I think that is going to be fairly common with a lot of companies. They have buildings that they either 'own' (meaning paying off the purchase) or are in some sort of lease that may not be easy to break. I guess their view is, If they are stuck with the facility, then why not fill it with people (whether they like it or not). EVERYBODY gives lip service to that whole 'collaboration' idea...
 
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