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Damn them also - I voted for that freak'n idiot in the White House twice - I'm disgusted and really believe we are witnessing the failure of democracy in such a pluralistic society - government can't get anything done. :mad: :mad:

Let me guess... you are going to vote for this McCain and his irresponsible choice of VP, the person that has never visited any land outside of the US and Canada... because they are also republican?

Not piling on you specifically, but... oh well. Enough said. This is probably not the proper forum for this type of discussion.
 
Apple does have good fundamentals, good cash reserves (assuming they're not in securitized investments)
...
Who knows how much of the former $200/share was on borrowed money? No one, actually.

Umm, cash reserves are... cash reserves... presumably FDIC insured, although I don't imagine that's worth that much. You can't have "cash reserves" invested in any way--they cease to be cash reserves the moment you buy a security or stock.

As for $200 per share, that price has nothing to do with borrowing. That is speculation on the part of those who exchange stocks. People are willing to pay more for AAPL when they think that it will be worth more in the future, and so they exchange stocks at prices far higher than the company's earnings... anyway, that's all murky and crazy, but stock price has nothing to do with borrowed money, except inasmuch as all the idiots on 'main street' borrowed money they shouldn't have, loaned to them by fools on Wall Street who shouldn't have been dumb enough (or allowed) to do so, who have now lost all of their investment capital to defunct, defaulting loans that they really, seriously should have seen coming--all that will soon fuel greater inflation, devaluing our money, making us much less likely to buy pretty aluminum and glass computers. Fun!
 
Apple does still have a sizeable war chest to buy lots of things. Buying back some AAPL would be one of the wiser moves they can do right now.

Apple should be rather pleased to have that war chest. It gives them incredible flexibility that many companies won't have.

I'd rather they didn't buy up shares. That's artificially stabilizing the price. Use your war chest to go shopping, fund R&D, and introduce new products when your competitors are struggling to sell their ideas to their bankers.

Then the price would stabilize/increase for a real reason.

There's enough room for Apple to absorb a large hit to their share price, and still come out ahead on the other end.
 
holy hell the tech sector even is getting hit with the market crash/depression/govtdrama wow I really am scared now. Plus with the bail out getting opposed. Man thank god I have emergency funds that are not getting affected by this. My stock is most likely at $0. Anyway this is nothing really on Apple but the market I mean who is willing to buy a new computer or new ipod right now with the economy right now.
 
Apple stock is going to be especially prone to the economic slowdown because their products are pricier than competitors. I remember a few months back when the stock was at 180 and an analyst was telling people to wait for it to go down to 125 to buy. The other 3 analysts were basically laughing at him.
 
wachovia is a North Carolina Based business. Local analysts say it did fail. the FDIC allowed the takeover so that it would not look like a collapse, but many analysts over the weekend were speculating that Wachovia would have failed this week as well. the Citigroup buyout was to prevent another collapse. The buyout is what kept it from actual collapse.

from CNN:

The FDIC noted that Wachovia did not qualify as a failed bank, unlike Washington Mutual, which collapsed last Thursday, only to be subsequently purchased by JPMorgan Chase (JPM, Fortune 500).

Following a string of high-profile collapses of banks in recent weeks including WaMu and the demise of Lehman Brothers, there has been increasing speculation that Wachovia could be the next one to go.

Local news:

Winston-Salem, NC -- Charlotte-based Wachovia sold its banking and mortgage business in a deal that kept the bank from failing.


Another local news Agency:

September 29, 2008
Wachovia failure rattles Wall Street trading

Things are off to a rocky start on Wall Street this week after Wachovia Corp. announced that they too have failed as a result of the economic crisis.

"With the news on Wachovia this morning, Washington Mutual last week, it just seems a lot of these banks are getting whacked," said Cleveland Rueckert, market analyst at Birinyi Associates Inc in Stamford, Connecticut.


So essentially Wachovia, the 4th largest bank did fail and the buyout prevented total collapse.

What would be even more bad news is if Juniper Bank (which underwrites Apple Credit card account" were to fail also.
your "another local news agency" turns out to be some guy's blog.
Anyway Wachovia didn't fail and was in merger talks since the beginning of this month with other banks because they had a lot of the ARM-mortgage debt that the market isn't looking too favorably on right now, which was causing the share price to drop. There was no exodus of money, their bond rating suggested the general thought was a 63% chance of them failing in five years. Much of this failing talk is coming after the fact.

What you have is the FDIC not wanting to be on the hook for the deposits so they encouraged a merger between the two banks, agreeing to cover losses in excess of what Citi is willing to cover. Regulators didn't take over the bank, the government basically stepped in a situation already being negotiated out of speculation, out of fear of collapse. Specifically because of WaMu's failure.
 
Let me guess... you are going to vote for this McCain and his irresponsible choice of VP, the person that has never visited any land outside of the US and Canada... because they are also republican?

Not piling on you specifically, but... oh well. Enough said. This is probably not the proper forum for this type of discussion.

This is a year where I may not vote - we have two very poor choices IMO. McCain is a marginal choice - too erratic - no economic experience. Obama - a good speaker with no track record of accomplishing anything & votes present how many times?

At a time when America so so so needs the very best at the top our choices are the worst I can remember. My wife and I would vote for Hillary before this crowd of losers.
 
Umm, cash reserves are... cash reserves... presumably FDIC insured, although I don't imagine that's worth that much. You can't have "cash reserves" invested in any way--they cease to be cash reserves the moment you buy a security or stock.

!

I mostly agree with you post - even this bit; sort of. Unless apple has a big safe with pieces of paper in it, its cash reserves exist as a loan to someone else, somewhere. It might be as treasuries, or it might (worse) be in a bank account. Banks on-lend, only holding 10-20% as cash, if that. Most of ours and Apple's "Cash" gets securitized. Just look what happens when more than a handful of people want their precious cash at once - Washington Mutual, North Rock, etc. Fractional reserve lending can even kill the prudent saver by turning us into involuntary speculators. When we lend short (a demand deposit), they on-lend long (housing, cars, stocks) pretending they can pay us everything tomorrow. All a confidence trick.

I think our argument about borrowed money might be semantic. If lots of people are buying with borrowed money, the price may become artificially inflated. Just look at your housing market (if your from US, UK, Spain, Australia). We are in strange times of competing deflationary forces (credit deflation primarily) and inflationary forces (central banks printing like mad). Both will work against computer sales for sure.
 
totally unrelated, does anyone know

Thought I'd post this since no one else seems to have: Apple shares have tanked - their biggest single day drop in seven years - due to some downgrades and an anticipated decrease in consumer spending:

LINK

yah yah just hold and they will recover.... hey does anyone know who sings a song with these lyrics, when two hearts are strained, i wish this were simple, but we give up easily, you're on the other side of the world to me....
 
This is a year where I may not vote - we have two very poor choices IMO. McCain is a marginal choice - too erratic - no economic experience. Obama - a good speaker with no track record of accomplishing anything & votes present how many times?

At a time when America so so so needs the very best at the top our choices are the worst I can remember. My wife and I would vote for Hillary before this crowd of losers.

Don't not vote, vote for whichever candidate actually matches your beliefs. This probably means not voting for either of the 'main' candidates. Vote Ron Paul, or Ralph Nader or one of the other oddballs.

That is much better than not voting.
 
You can't have "cash reserves" invested in any way--they cease to be cash reserves the moment you buy a security or stock.

HAHAHA! You're obviously not a Wall Street man!

'Cash reserves' can mean a lot of nasty *****. That's the whole reason they are claiming they need this bailout: Banks and central banks were holding mortgage bonds as capital reserves, i.e., good as cash, and AAA-rated. Turns out, AAA-rated was not the right rating.
 
with this obvious economic collapse we're headed towards, people are not going to have the money to buy iPods with their maxed out credit cards anymore.

Which is exactly why Apple is selling worldwide : the whole world is getting hit by this, but the USA is going to get hurt the most. And no other country uses credit as much, in many parts of the world, "credit card" is just a nickname, but few people actually own one. People will just drain their savings, at least for a while.

Perhaps this particular sell off is excessive for one day, but people should be wise to see that the last thing people are thinking about is buying electronic crap when they have just been laid off or who's savings are in the tank.

Again, this is quite specific to the USA. Which is also why Apple is extending the iPhone to other countries. For instance, few sane people outside of the USA put their lifesavings on the stock market. The stock market is where you put money you can afford to lose.
Same for being laid off in a depressed economy, it's much less traumatic outside of the USA. Last time, it didn't prevent me from buying stuff, I just had to be a little more careful.

It all depends on how long the crisis lasts...
 
This financial crisis is not good for anyone, stockholder or not.
I luckily sold my AAPL stock at 175$...
 
Let me guess... you are going to vote for this McCain and his irresponsible choice of VP, the person that has never visited any land outside of the US and Canada... because they are also republican?

I don't care who you are voting for or anyone else for that matter, it's your business. As others have said before, vote for whoever best matches your beliefs and principles. However I am tired of this tripe being used as reasoning for why someone isn't qualified to hold public office.

When last I checked the Constitution (you remember the Constitution don't you?) the qualifications as outlined in Article 2, section 1, clause 5 clearly states...

No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

Neither I nor you will find anything in those words requiring the acquisition of a passport or at least 3 months traveling through the finer nations of the world to see how America 'should be'. That line of thinking belies your elitist hatred toward 'everyday' Americans who "do most of the working and paying and living and dying" in this nation.
 
old news

2,000,000 pounds of heroin produced in Afghanistan. US is the biggest consumer of cocaine. Apple starts loosing ground on speculation from people that don't tell you yesterday news they tell you tomorrows (?). The narc heads suck. I am sorry we still need a split. 20,000 for a hundred shares is too much to cover; also why we need to route for a more sober board. Apple has ****ing murdered Dell in the last 5. And Dell's going to be here. 1200% to - 60%. Apple slipping on the Apple TV with no bluetooth for a wireless keyboard (youtube). Now the fiends that scared Bush into giving them a war want 2 grand a person to feed there habit so they can beat Apple. Apple will beat itself if that happens and turn to hating PC if there is a PC to hate.

Druggy behavior,
Black and white thinking
Beligerence
Inability to take a compliment
unproductive
counterproductive
Mean
Unforgiving
Hating

Citing: Yahoo finance and CIA worldfact book
 
I beg to differ with both of you ( with better discipline)

Let me guess... you are going to vote for this McCain and his irresponsible choice of VP, the person that has never visited any land outside of the US and Canada... because they are also republican?

Not piling on you specifically, but... oh well. Enough said. This is probably not the proper forum for this type of discussion.

We are at the tail of the Great Incompetency not the verge of a Great Deppresion. Pot can be legalized though. I voted for Bush and expected the one we had for Gustav that was sober. Nar anon sobered me up to letting all that hate.

And incidently where??????? For the people by the people shall not perish from this earth. Watch what you say it say more about you to try to shut me up.
 
This is an odd time to downgrade Apple, since just two days ago, analysts were raving about how much cash Apple has (I think they said $21Billion cash) compared to other computer companies. Dell and HP are selling assets and cutting jobs, while Apple does not have to do any of that because they have a huge amount of cash. Add in the income from iPhone sales (which continue every day), iMacs, and the MILLIONS of iPods that will be sold this holiday season, and Apple is looking in pretty good shape! :)

(these junior analysts will be very regretful after Apple reports earnings in October)
 
:D Hahahaha... Good to hear some funny news from time to time. It will be a great time to buy Apple stock soon.
 
not a specific reply, but simply a statement in general.

oh man, keep up the hilarity guys! It's so much fun to read all you armchair economists spout off your predictions of the economy's future! Henry Paulson has nothing on you mavericks!

Fact of the matter is: It doesnt matter what we do at this point. The economy is due for a major correction, and it's been coming for years. Any seriously respected economist, or for that matter, anyone who hasnt been painfully blinded by the "cash" (aka unsubstantiated credit) being thrown around for the last five years, can tell you that this has been nothing more than the same folks who bought into the dot-com bubble going out drinking the night after in some fruitless hope that they could drink away the hangover. People with any sense in their heads (or those who got burned by the dot-com bust) have been playing it safe with their money, and as a result, are that much more worked up about the fact that we now have to bail out everybody else who has been pissing away their money on things they cant afford like its some (inappropriate term)-rich payday.
My portfolio is diversified. My finances are secure. I'm not hopelessly over my head in debt, and I didnt spend the last five years buying things I couldnt afford and didnt need. Hell, im still doing quite fine on my G5 power mac i bought with cash in 2005. To all you folks who are worrying about keeping the roof over your head because you bought into things you couldnt afford: sucks to be you. maybe next time you'll think about it before you whip out the plastic without really thinking through the consequences of your actions. I'll enjoy living in your foreclosed home that I bought for the realistic price which was half what you payed while drunk on credit.
as for apple: as much as i love and adore them (been buying/using macs for almost 20 years now) their product line right now is desperately in need of some fresh life. Part of what drives the consumer spending cycle is the "new and great thing"... to be honest, Apple's product line has, asides from the introduction of the MacBook Air and the Mac Mini, been exactly the same thing for the last 5 years. Sure, we've had the MacBook (which is a variation of the iBook and nothing more) and the aluminum iMac (putting a shiny glass surface on the same machine we've had since 2004) and the Mac Pro (a G5 with a second optical bay... wow apple, it only took you three years to figure out your users wanted the same thing you gave them on the last G4 in 2003!!! how on point you are!) and the MacBook Pro (which is effectively unchanged since being debuted as the AL-PowerBook G4 in 2003) Interior is unimportant. You could sock a dual quad-core cpu in there with the most efficient cooling system ever in it, and as long as it has the same case design, you're going to see a minor bump in sales at best. The MacBook Air is the freshest thing out of the labs in years and unfortunately, the folks who rate stocks are agreeing with me... there's nothing fresh or new coming out of apple right now except the iPhone, and even then, Apple is going to have to continue to keep ahead of the game, because they're dealing with major, major companies right now and even though iPhone is still superior in the game, it would be foolish and arrogant to assume that nobody else is going to come up with a worthwhile competitor. However, given Apple's history, they will likely sit on their laurels and ignore the competition, until it's too late and they're back playing third string again. Sure, Apple is riding high on the halo effect of iPods and iPhones, but unless they seriously keep pushing the envelope and put out hard-hitting, compelling products (like the iPhone at launch) they will become the victim of their own success. They will be dealing with people like me, who payed through the nose to buy a machine years ago but can't be compelled to buy another because "well, it's still doing just fine with everything it used to"
sorry folks, hate to be a nay-sayer, but Apple had this stock-downgrade coming, and Im certain given the current state of things, it wont be the last either.
 
Credit

There have been a couple of really insightfull responses in this thread. The real truth is so blatantly obvious it is almost unimaginable. The facts are greed and fear drive the economy possibly the two most ugly human traits. For too long institutions have offered easy credit and owned individuals souls bargaining and exchanging them at will. The media is swamped with unaffordable images and lifestyles and offers of credit are pumped into us by television , newspaper and email on a daily basis. It's so obvious it's horrific they want you to over extend they want to own you before somebody else does. Politicians and economists have spin and excuses but it's all so simple. Apple it seems are taking a disproportionate hit in comparison to their success. I can understand this luxury market is often the first one hit, perhaps because they have a buffer and are now a victim of their own success. The true horror is these are real peoples lives at the end of the day who have been misled and miss-represented by the financial system and media.
 
When last I checked the Constitution (you remember the Constitution don't you?) the qualifications as outlined in Article 2, section 1, clause 5 clearly states...
Neither I nor you will find anything in those words requiring the acquisition of a passport or at least 3 months traveling through the finer nations of the world to see how America 'should be'. That line of thinking belies your elitist hatred toward 'everyday' Americans who "do most of the working and paying and living and dying" in this nation.

I think what people mean is that someone might not be qualified in the observer's mind, not literally that they don't meet the specific qualifications outlined in the constitution. And i think it's silly of you to think qualifications should be limited to the legal requirements.

This exalting of the common man is...in the words of the common man...hooey. Bull pucky. BS. We want--we NEED--people of exceptional talents, and exceptional insights. I'm not saying we often get that, but by damn, we have a right to seek it.

Look, travel (to use your example) can and does give a person greater insights into the world, and isn't that important for our leader?

In the Galapagos, my daughter and I saw an island where evolution in finch beaks was observed to have occurred within only a 24-month span. As unusual weather changed the seed mix, birds with beaks best suited to husking the newly-dominant seeds reproduced more successfully than those whose beaks specialized them for eating seeds that had disappeared in the drought. The population shifted quickly to those birds, birds selected naturally to better prosper in the new conditions.

In Thailand, my brother and I met with workers at large multinational corporations and discussed with them how their workplaces successfully integrate employees from three, and frequently four, of the world's great religions.

In India, my daughter and I observed poverty and hardship that simply could not be seen...could barely be imagined...to anyone with feet planted permanently in the states. We were changed.

Motivated by an upcoming trip to Australia, i read at length about the horrific treatment of that continent's aborigines (men, women and children rounded up and slaughtered--in just the last century--by Europeans operating under laws that did not recognize those people as human beings.) Yes, someone could stay in any state in the U.S. and read that same history; seeing the state of aborigines on the streets of large cities and small towns--seeing the consequences that past has had on them--seared that "book learnin'" into me: the meaning of the knowledge, the way it would affect my thoughts and behavior, was unarguably altered. If the experience of living in a state "near Russia" can be cited as meaningful, then by gosh, these travel experiences can shape--for the better--a politician.

And to go back to India, before i drop this train of thought: we visited the palace where the Taj Mahal's Moghul designer and builder resided. Walking where leaders of vast empires walked brought history off the pages. Realizing the scope of power and wealth of these leaders--and then seeing and feeling their palaces empty now, because within several centuries the empires grew, prospered, dominated, and failed--reminded us of the impermanence of governments in a way that mere reading could not.

I have the greatest respect for, in your words, "'everyday' Americans who "do most of the working and paying and living and dying" in this nation". But I have the greatest disdain for anyone who argues that that constitutes grounds for their leading us through incredibly complex and dangerous times, or that we are wrong to want--to demand--more from our leaders.
 
This is a year where I may not vote - we have two very poor choices IMO. McCain is a marginal choice - too erratic - no economic experience. Obama - a good speaker with no track record of accomplishing anything & votes present how many times?

At a time when America so so so needs the very best at the top our choices are the worst I can remember. My wife and I would vote for Hillary before this crowd of losers.

If you don't vote then you fail yourself.
 
Does anybody still believe any of these credit agencies? Don't we learn anything from present and current disasters? Apart from that it's true that Apple hardware hasn't evolved in 4 years and updates are starting to look boring.
 
this is pretty rough, it's hard to look at my investment as a long term option now when the stock has fluctuated +/1 $100 this year alone.

Who else is banging their heads into the wall right now for not selling back at $200?

All part of the game, folks....you buy low, try to sell high. Then some crises happens and well you lose some.

And as far as the dire situation goes, what goes down eventually will come up. I think that if the States survived 1929, they will bounce back from this one too. and so will Apple sales and stockmarket value....

I think that article could've been written about so many other "luxury products" manufacturers and providers. Guess my Amazon stocks will go down too ...:(
 
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