Apple Store Customer Arrested for Shoplifting Says He Was Trying to Use EasyPay Self-Checkout

[tbrinkma]

You don't exactly sound informed yourself.
Intent is typically a necessary element in these types of crimes.
(Leaving the shop is not typically a necessary element, though in practice it is a great way to prove intent.)

Yes, but saying, "Oh, I *meant* to!" doesn't disprove intent to take merchandise without paying for it.

In both states where I've worked retail, we were trained *not* to stop someone until they exited the store, because right up until that moment, it's possible for them to go, "Oh, crap! I forgot to pay for this.", turn around and head to the register. Beyond that, it's too late. (Though, in my experience, if someone does so right after leaving, and before being approached by anyone, they'll be allowed to do so.)

NY laws may have a different threshold, but the basic concept is sound.

Of course, where the person was has absolutely nothing to do with the post I was responding to, who claimed that it had to be a *civil* matter because of a 'contract' entered into by Apple and the person using EasyPay.

 

[handygeek]

If Apple presses this and loses, it could easily mean the end of the EasyPay program. If they drop it and don't say another word, it'll disappear from the news radars and can continue as is. If they press it and win, all they'll do is discourage its use. So it comes down to whether Apple wants to keep the program or not. If they do, they will drop it. If they don't, the risk is high they'll have to stop EasyPay either by precedent or by market disinterest.

 

[Macintosh-HD]

Wait, how do they disable the inventory control tags via EasyPay?

I'm not too familiar, but do Apple stores even use such systems where unpaid merchandise will set off a "door alarm"?

If so, wouldn't customers know to hunt down a "genius" after the EasyPay process to disable the tag?

 

[renegad3]

No, not just Apple. I hate all these self-service checkouts. These things are complicated and unreliable. People are constantly having to call for help to pay for their stuff. Everytime I got into a store I see someone having problems with them. And if you accidentally don't pay for something because it didn't register properly, unlike when there's a human cashier, you'll get done for stealing.

Having to fool around with an iPhone app to pay for something though as potential time saver is ridiculous. Is it really easier than walking up to a desk and handing over cash or a credit card?

Your personal hatred doesn't make it a hatred for me, or anyone else. Quite the opposite, in fact. I love the system. Also, a mistake on the machines part (didn't register properly) is NOT what happened here!!! It registered just fine, it didn't fail in any respect. The failing was in the customer for not clicking the PAY NOW button. I have never seen a person approached and accused of stealing when the machine made a mistake, and I have great doubt that you have either. Having said that, it's also quite possible you have. But its certainly not the "norm".

Yes, it is quite a bit easier to use the EasyPay system, specifically more so when the store is overly busy. The two stores I frequent are often deluged with customers and can take a half an hour or more to get you checked out. Seems to me to be a great deal easier when I can myself out and be done and gone in about two minutes.

 

[Tech198]

.....

Duh...

The stuff people make up now days trying to sound sincere and conviening is not on.. I mean come on....!! "he was intended to pay for the headphones" ?? lol

WHat a load of !#*@ !! He stole, beause he coldn't afford them... Simple. Whats there not to get here? That he walked out and just "forgot" to pay ? Honestly though,, as a teenager I even shoplifted, but I addmited to doing it.... Maybe he probably thought, Apple would just slap him on the wrist if he lied and he could get away with it ......... You pay for stuff or don't buy... SImple as that... Doesn't matter how cheap it is....

Its business after all.. Apple obviously must take shoplifting seriosly if they called the cops. I mean when I did it in Myer, all that happened was I got taken to the back..... No police involved.

Let him go coz he's a teenager.......lol.....Classic.

btw: since we don't have EasyPay as yet in Australia, how does the Apple store people get the connection ?

WIth so many people in the same Apple store using Easy Pay, how would they keep track of everyone ? I mean, by the time they finished talking to a customer (as an option) someone else, who has just used EasyPay to checkout, like this kid tried to do, could have easily have left the store... maybie even un-noticed if the store is crowded.

Does it go over 3G, or Wifi ?

 

[gnasher729]

The customer is always right

1. If the sales person has the choice between being right and selling a product, then the customer is always right.

2. If the customer wants something more expensive instead of listening to the advice of the sales person who tries to sell something more suitable and cheaper, then the customer is always right.

"Person entering the store" does not equate to "customer". Especially "Person entering the store, and later leaving with goods they didn't pay for" is most definitely not a customer.

 

[wallysb01]

Even if the kid was technologically illiterate (highly doubtful since he knows how to at least turn on his rMBP and realize it has a problem, he knew enough to bring it to the genius bar), also has an iPhone and can make the decision to launch an app that he knows requires a payment to be made, but yet stop short of making a payment. Can you really honestly say he wasn't trying to game the system?

I can honestly say that I do not know if he was or was not trying to game the system. That's the problem.

Again, ask anyone in jail if they are innocent, 99% of the time you will hear of course they are innocent!

And guess what? We know that many of them are. Of the states with capital punishment, an average of 1/20 are later found not guilty. These are people put through the highest standard of evidence for the most serious crimes and we have a known false-positive rate of 5%. So, what are the chances for some one like this 16 year old in the story who hasn't even yet been found guilty of a relatively trivial crime?

I don't have any idea what the kids true intentions are/were, just as no one else here does, but we only hear what the kid has to say, nothing from Apple's side. I am all for the kid being honest and hope for his sake he is telling the truth, but if he's not...

Its nice to see you answered your own question then. From the details we have here, we can determine guilt. So, why do you feel its necessary perpetuate this "he must be trying to game the system" assumption?

----------

1. If the sales person has the choice between being right and selling a product, then the customer is always right.

2. If the customer wants something more expensive instead of listening to the advice of the sales person who tries to sell something more suitable and cheaper, then the customer is always right.

"Person entering the store" does not equate to "customer". Especially "Person entering the store, and later leaving with goods they didn't pay for" is most definitely not a customer.

Funny thing though, someone accidentally leaving the store without paying falls quite squarely into criteria number one above.

 

[gnasher729]

I'm not 100% certain but i believe here in austria it actually can be counted as intended shoplifting if you put goods in a bag you brought with you... that might be because it's always easy to say "i meant to pay for it later on" when you get caught...

however... stealing is defined as not paying for a good or service (i.e. eating a grape in store) - you don't differentiate between stealing on purpose or stealing unintentionally - if you can prove to the court you didn't do it on purpose (good luck with that) you have a chance on reduced charges...

In the countries that I know, the goods are legally in possession of the store as long as they are inside the store (worst case, if you buy at a store that is going bankrupt and bailiffs come in and close the store before you leave with your paid for goods you can lose out), so until you stepped through the door, no theft has happened. And I don't think "attempted theft" is a crime in many places.

Of course if you packed stuff into your own bag and then left the store, any attempt to claim you made an honest mistake may be pointless.

Funny thing though, someone accidentally leaving the store without paying falls quite squarely into criteria number one above.

Sure. And that person is not a customer.

I saw something like that at a store once, someone was trying to go out the security exit fire gate and he said he was just trying to get back inside and we all knew he was trying to steal everything for a few reasons, however they accepted that and allowed him to go on his way and he left the store again.

In many jurisdictions, as long as he didn't leave the store, it wasn't theft.

 

[D.T.]

In both states where I've worked retail, we were trained *not* to stop someone until they exited the store, because right up until that moment, it's possible for them to go, "Oh, crap! I forgot to pay for this.", turn around and head to the register. Beyond that, it's too late. (Though, in my experience, if someone does so right after leaving, and before being approached by anyone, they'll be allowed to do so.)

Yeah, [way] back in high school I worked at a record store at a mall, big theft target, and the owner was always very adamant about letting the person leave the store before doing anything - even if they were acting suspicious or showing intent like hiding the merchandise under/in a jacket.

 

[b-rad g]

Is it really easier than walking up to a desk and handing over cash or a credit card?

Yes it is much easier. Having used it myself many times I would MUCH rather use the EasyPay system than wait for someone to be free so I can checkout. I can checkout and be out the store before I could find a free sales person.

Wait, how do they disable the inventory control tags via EasyPay?

I'm not too familiar, but do Apple stores even use such systems where unpaid merchandise will set off a "door alarm"?

If so, wouldn't customers know to hunt down a "genius" after the EasyPay process to disable the tag?

There are no door alarms at any Apple Store I've ever seen. I've never had to diable anything after purchasing. I usually don't get a bag for it either, just scan, purchase, receive confirmation and leave the store. Could not be any easier.

 

[Tech198]

...

Funny thing though, someone accidentally leaving the store without paying falls quite squarely into criteria number one above.

"accidentally" is the key.... he knew what he was doing...

In many jurisdictions, as long as he didn't leave the store, it wasn't theft.

but he did try and leave, thats the issue.

Yes it is much easier. Having used it myself many times I would MUCH rather use the EasyPay system than wait for someone to be free so I can checkout. I can checkout and be out the store before I could find a free sales person.

Thats the problem, its all too easy... for anyone. even shoplifters

 

[renegad3]

I can honestly say that I do not know if he was or was not trying to game the system. That's the problem.

I guess then, thats where we differ. I really don't see how a rational person could think that he was not trying to steal. He admits that he never even bothered to check at all if he actually paid for it (until they called him on it). He isn't claiming that there was a problem or an error of any kind with the system. He simply scanned the item and put his phone away. I personally don't know of a single person who would consider that sequence of events constituting a purchase.

And guess what? We know that many of them are. Of the states with capital punishment, an average of 1/20 are later found not guilty. These are people put through the highest standard of evidence for the most serious crimes and we have a known false-positive rate of 5%. So, what are the chances for some one like this 16 year old in the story who hasn't even yet been found guilty of a relatively trivial crime?

The point being, criminals tend to lie to try and prove their innocence, I see no reason why this kid would be any different. And for the record, he is 18.

Its nice to see you answered your own question then. From the details we have here, we can determine guilt. So, why do you feel its necessary perpetuate this "he must be trying to game the system" assumption?

No, we can't determine his guilt, we only have one side of the story. From the side of the story I got, I would assume he is guilty. Which is what I have been posting about all along, not sure what your even referencing here. I find it funny that people seem to be giving him a blanket exception for various reasons. None seem to consider the fact that he may actually be guilty.

----------

 

[iLuvMyMacToo]

He probably showed his iPhone displaying the EasyPay screen to a "well read" Apple Genius who responded with "... dude! looks like your motherboard needs replacing.."

 

[loon3y]

lol employess acting like judge and jury? sometime its just blatantly there.



its like having a bum hovering over your products in your liquor store, sooner or later he goes out and u catch him carrying an unpaid beer out the door. lol n than when u catch him he's going to say "ohh i forgot"


if you see a mischievous looking teenager, or heck a teenager period, because we're all pretty young and dumb at that point, hovering and than walking out with what 400 dollar headphones? lol you would know if it got charged or not, but its a good back up plan.


imo, its not an honest mistake, he was there for an HOUR? its understandable if he came there just to get and it in a hurry and than was trying to leave.

but if he's THERE FOR AN HOUR? a TEENAGER? buying 400 dollar headphones? sounds pretty suspicious to me, sounds like that hour was just him getting the balls to go out.

i do want to give him the benefit of the doubt but its just not likely he's innocent.

 

[linkgx1]

lol employess acting like judge and jury? sometime its just blatantly there.



its like having a bum hovering over your products in your liquor store, sooner or later he goes out and u catch him carrying an unpaid beer out the door. lol n than when u catch him he's going to say "ohh i forgot"


if you see a mischievous looking teenager, or heck a teenager period, because we're all pretty young and dumb at that point, hovering and than walking out with what 400 dollar headphones? lol you would know if it got charged or not, but its a good back up plan.


imo, its not an honest mistake, he was there for an HOUR? its understandable if he came there just to get and it in a hurry and than was trying to leave.

but if he's THERE FOR AN HOUR? a TEENAGER? buying 400 dollar headphones? sounds pretty suspicious to me, sounds like that hour was just him getting the balls to go out.

i do want to give him the benefit of the doubt but its just not likely he's innocent.

There was $400 headphones there? He couldn't just save up $400 in two paychecks, assuming he works 20 hrs a week?

And please, use proper grammar.

 

[RollTide1017]

If this kid was stopped inside the store, I don't care if he was inches away from the door, then he, technically, had not stolen anything yet. How can you steal something if you are still in the store? This is why, when I worked in retail (the old Suncoast Video chain) when I was a teenager, we were told that we could not accuse anyone of shoplifting until they physically left the store. Chasing people through the mall is one of my fondest memories.

 

[D.T.]

If this kid was stopped inside the store, I don't care if he was inches away from the door, then he, technically, had not stolen anything yet. How can you steal something if you are still in the store? This is why, when I worked in retail (the old Suncoast Video chain) when I was a teenager, we were told that we could not accuse anyone of shoplifting until they physically left the store. Chasing people through the mall is one of my fondest memories.

This is a quote from Shine, from the Macworld story:

“needed a pair of headphones, so I picked up a pair of Bose headphones that I wanted. I scanned the bar code with the Apple Store app, put my phone away, asked an employee for a bag for the headphones, went over to the Genius Bar for my appointment, and when I went to leave the store, they stopped me.”

It's kind of hard to determine if he was stepping out of the store (you know, breaking the plane of the store property), or just making move toward the door.

Chasing people through the mall is one of my fondest memories.

Hahaha, exactly, see my post above about working retail at a mall record store, we had a few good chases

 

[renegad3]

This is a quote from Shine, from the Macworld story:

It's kind of hard to determine if he was stepping out of the store (you know, breaking the plane of the store property), or just making move toward the door.

Keep in mind, and I am not a qualified lawyer, but reading NYC code for larceny (what he is charged with) there is no determination that needs to be made with regards to the physical location (in store, out of store) of the accused.

 

[D.T.]

Keep in mind, and I am not a qualified lawyer, but reading NYC code for larceny (what he is charged with) there is no determination that needs to be made with regards to the physical location (in store, out of store) of the accused.

Yeah, in Florida, the code actually doesn't require leaving the premises either, there's language that reads: "endeavor" to unlawfully obtain the property

That includes things like concealing the item or removing security tags _while_ still in the store. My anecdote about the store owner where I worked was just to illustrate the concern about determining "intent" (where leaving the store with an item that wasn't paid for makes the intent pretty damn clear).

Another bizarre detail about this story: apparently he went +back+ into another Apple store and still bought the earbuds. That really seems like he's trying too hard to reinforce his position (if I was really pissed at a company, and considering a civil suit, the last thing I'd do is give them more money).

This whole thing seems like a simple setup: scan the item, don't complete the transaction, start to leave ... if you get stopped, claim ignorance about the transaction, if you don't, just close the app.

A couple of things I'm curious about: has he ever used EasyPay? If he didn't see the transaction complete, how did he know to ask for a bag? (sort of suggesting he knew the workflow...)

I'm not an attorney either, but I do watch Law and Order

 

[hack1nt0sh]

iPrecogs

Or may be security camera footage. Apple is not stupid, they must have a reason to take this further.

 

[kingtj]

I agree....

First of all, you can't go around having people arrested and prosecuted over what you THOUGHT they INTENDED to do. You have to base it on what actually happened. (That's why it never holds up in court if someone attempts to shoplift from a traditional retail outlet and gets apprehended before they've walked out the doors and stepped outside. Even if you watch them stuffing items in their pants, they haven't technically stolen until they leave the premises with them, without paying.)

* Ok, I just read some of the above posts after posting, so apparently this varies by state. I'm kind of shocked a state like NY would allow wording like "endeavor to unlawfully obtain property" ... That opens up a WIDE area of subjectivity. Could you get arrested simply because someone watching from a security camera thought you were walking around funny, like you *might* do if you had some item stuck in your clothing? What if someone just thought you looked suspicious based on your clothing or hairstyle and saw you go into the restroom for a while? It'd be pretty easy to accuse such a person of shoplifting without any real concrete evidence they picked up a single thing, and then it'd be on them to fight it in court. I don't like that too much!

With this "EasyPay" system Apple created, they blurred the distinction. Now it all becomes a matter of "He said, she said." because the new acceptable process is to simply pick items up, tap some keys on your phone, and walk on out the door. Did the customer really tap the right sequences of keys to ensure Apple was paid? If not, was it intentional? While an Apple employee can ask to see proof of the completed transaction on the screen, someone at the screen just before it can make a very reasonable argument that he/she intended to press that last button but it didn't register properly.

Many stores automate the checkout process to reduce employee headcount. But normally, it's done with automatic checkout lanes where the equipment prints a full paper receipt of all the items a customer scanned, and at least one employee is watching over the process from a master terminal with several monitors.

Apple thought it would improve customer satisfaction and their corporate image to give customers this higher level of trust. But now, they're starting to become more "numbers/profit focused" and the cost of theft losses is bothering them. Can't have it both ways, Apple.

I don't know whether he really intended to steal or not, but I sort of hope he gets off. Apple has to take responsibility for the fact that these problems will come up. It seems they are willing to trade tight control for reduced employees, so they have to deal with the possible ramifications.

 

[kingtj]

Good for you ....

I know this gets a bit off topic, but a lot of stores are going beyond what they've got a legal right to do, in the interests of protecting themselves from theft.

They know they can simply intimidate most customers into complying, rather than making a scene. (CompUSA stores used to be really bad about it where I live. They'd regularly demand women hand over their purses to be emptied out and inspected before walking out.)

Even places where some guy by the exit asks to see your receipt have no legal authority to do so. If you want to tell him "No.. I'm in a hurry. Thanks." You can LEGALLY do so! I remember reading a story about the now defunct Circuit City where a guy did exactly this (knowing his legal rights), and was still arrested for not cooperating. He went through the whole legal process to make his point and was found not guilty in the end.

I don't think it matters whether or not it's the app's fault. People just assume you're a thief if you don't have a bag.

I bought PUMAs at the mall. They need to be broken in, so I put them on after I purchased them and put my old shoes in the box and put the box in the awesome red PUMA bag. FootLocker offered me a plastic bag. I told them that it's pointless to put a bag in a bag. (I do this at Target all the time..why do I need a bag for ONE item? A bag for TOILET PAPER? Come on...)

Anyway, onward to a different shoe store to find some VibramFiveFingers. On my way out, this chick stopped me and asked me if I paid. I said...yes...I'm wearing my new shoes. Wanna see my receipt? She looked then I asked if I was free to go. "Why didn't you get a FootLocker bag? You look suspicious." "No, you think I look suspicious, and I know I paid, and I don't need a bag for a bag."

 

[renegad3]

A couple of things I'm curious about: has he ever used EasyPay? If he didn't see the transaction complete, how did he know to ask for a bag? (sort of suggesting he knew the workflow...)

I'm not an attorney either, but I do watch Law and Order

From the story:

Shine says that while he’d never used the app before himself, he’d watched others use it. He doesn’t know why the transaction didn’t complete and blames his own “haste” in putting his phone away before he’d verified that the transaction went through.

The part about the bag made me wonder too, but the Macworld article seems poorly written in that regard, its hard to determine in the author was quoting the kid, or merely interjecting the fact about the bag. Also, again however, I have requested and received bags from the Apple store without even making a purchase, it doesn't do much for me in terms of swaying towards believing him or not.

Again, the main reason I don't buy into his story at all is the fact that he said he simply scanned the item and put his phone away. He doesn't know why the transaction didn't complete, because he never tried to complete it, this is by his own admission. If he had indeed watched others use it, then surely he would have known that at some point he actually had to pay. Heck the first screen you see before you do anything in the app lists the steps to complete the transaction, of course one of the steps listed is "Pay."

 

[bigjnyc]

Very curious to see how the trial shakes out. This could potentially be a lose-lose for Apple.... If this kid has no prior record and is found guilty then it could be bad publicity for Apple and the easy pay system.... However if he is found innocent on a technicality with the App that could open the floodgates for thieves to use this excuse.

On the other hand maybe Apple has some strong evidence, they may have security camera footage of the kid being suspicious. Maybe they were watching him for a while in the store. So yeah it will be very interesting to see how this turns out.

 

[RalfTheDog]

...the country has over the last 10-15 years (under the socialist government), slowly drifted painfully towards a presumed guilty attitude to the public. It is humiliating, stressful and can ruin your career and health.

Just today, in a terrifyingly dystopian announcement, government advisors (who are paid under the carpet by surveillance equipment suppliers), complained that the huge network of CCTV cameras monitoring almost every major road in the country (tracking each driver in real time) is not quite comprehensive enough.

I was shocked to even discover that my PRIVATE journey is monitored by what we call here, council/police/government 'Jobsworths', who are really like overweight self hating 'lightweight' (!) equivs of the Stasi, KGB or even SS.

I have video and audio recordings made to my horror of staff at a British Railway Station abusing passengers and myself after series of mistakes by the railway operators that left us stranded outside in the cold.

The way the staff and the thuggish security people (who were ill educated immigrants who acted little different than criminals) treated us (we're all working professionals) was very upsetting and scary at the least.

I'll be publishing it all online in due course after seeking legal advice and/or contacting the media.

I hope so much what went on in this Apple store was a one off and that either the guy was a thief or that there was a breakdown in 'process' by the staff.

You sound like you think "ill educated immigrants" and "working professionals" deserve a different level of respect. I don't care if you are talking to the CEO of a major corporation or a one legged homeless person who asks for quarters at the buss stop. People are people.