Apple Store in Dallas Robbed...Knox Street

[snberk103]

...

its not exactly hard to figure out that someone is breaking the law if they are running out of a store with a bunch of crap under their arms.

It is still an opinion, until convicted in a court of law. There is still that "Presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law." A legal protection that you enjoy, and any erosion of it's protections for an alleged criminal is an equal erosion of your protection.

criminally undue harm? thats ridiculous. if you think its okay to go and rob a store maybe you deserve to get hit.
and its really not hard to restrain people.

Please don't come and visit my community - you might hurt someone. If we have bought a broken widget from the hardware store, we will return it to the cashier, who we probably know. Go to the shelf at the back with more widgets, and walk out the door with the new widget in the pocket - waving a cheery goodbye to our friend at the cash. If you only saw the 2nd part of what we were doing, then it sounds like you would feel justified to tackle one of us to prevent a crime from happening. Which in this case would simply be criminal assault.

And yes, it can be difficult to restrain someone. In the scenario above, I would be fearful for my life - 'cause this madman has decided to attack me for no good reason - and while your intention might be to restrain me, my intention would be to hurt you enough to stop your attack. And I would have adrenaline on my side.

I like my community..... it's humane and peaceful. We have crime, of course. In fact we had a bank robbery once. Would have totally gotten away with it, except he decided to spend a marked $50 at the video store where his friend worked. The clerk told his friend to "wait right there" while he called the cops. The bank robber waited. He got busted.

 

[ctdonath]

criminally undue harm? thats ridiculous. if you think its okay to go and rob a store maybe you deserve to get hit.
and its really not hard to restrain people.

Yes, criminally undue harm. Not ridiculous. Like the poster above inclined to shoot the guy for running off with a few hundred dollars' worth of product the owner is willing to let go under the circumstances. Like not knowing how to properly grab someone and breaking their neck as a result.

There IS a spectrum of force, and legally & morally inflicting harm high on the list in response to a crime low on the list is, indeed, criminal.

Is it really not hard to restrain someone? He's motivated, and demonstrated a willingness to commit felonies to achieve his goals ("the first felony is very expensive, the rest are free"). He's about as physically capable as you are (probably more). At best it's gonna be an even fight; at worst you're gonna get your noggin bashed in. You're trying to fight fair and stay within the law (lest YOU become a criminal and subject to the same treatment); he's already operating outside the law. How hard is it to restrain someone when they may be willing to go so far as to kill you to get away?

 

[tflournoy95]

It is still an opinion, until convicted in a court of law. There is still that "Presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law." A legal protection that you enjoy, and any erosion of it's protections for an alleged criminal is an equal erosion of your protection.



Please don't come and visit my community - you might hurt someone. If we have bought a broken widget from the hardware store, we will return it to the cashier, who we probably know. Go to the shelf at the back with more widgets, and walk out the door with the new widget in the pocket - waving a cheery goodbye to our friend at the cash. If you only saw the 2nd part of what we were doing, then it sounds like you would feel justified to tackle one of us to prevent a crime from happening. Which in this case would simply be criminal assault.

And yes, it can be difficult to restrain someone. In the scenario above, I would be fearful for my life - 'cause this madman has decided to attack me for no good reason - and while your intention might be to restrain me, my intention would be to hurt you enough to stop your attack. And I would have adrenaline on my side.

I like my community..... it's humane and peaceful. We have crime, of course. In fact we had a bank robbery once. Would have totally gotten away with it, except he decided to spend a marked $50 at the video store where his friend worked. The clerk told his friend to "wait right there" while he called the cops. The bank robber waited. He got busted.

there is a big difference in RUNNING out of a store and waving to your friends and just walking out the door. and what community is this because it is amazing that the bank robber decided to just chill and wait for the cops

Yes, criminally undue harm. Not ridiculous. Like the poster above inclined to shoot the guy for running off with a few hundred dollars' worth of product the owner is willing to let go under the circumstances. Like not knowing how to properly grab someone and breaking their neck as a result.

There IS a spectrum of force, and legally & morally inflicting harm high on the list in response to a crime low on the list is, indeed, criminal.

Is it really not hard to restrain someone? He's motivated, and demonstrated a willingness to commit felonies to achieve his goals ("the first felony is very expensive, the rest are free"). He's about as physically capable as you are (probably more). At best it's gonna be an even fight; at worst you're gonna get your noggin bashed in. You're trying to fight fair and stay within the law (lest YOU become a criminal and subject to the same treatment); he's already operating outside the law. How hard is it to restrain someone when they may be willing to go so far as to kill you to get away?

you do realize that there will probably be other people in the store that will help subdue the criminal right. one guy versus oh say 10, you think hes still gonna have the advantage?

and in that situation i wouldnt fight fair. nuts, adams apple, knee caps, shins, its all fair game in that situation.

 

[dukebound85]

You have quite the barbarian mindset tflournoy95

We have roles in society, do we not? The role to handle crimes is done by law enforcement, not citizens (who in many cases make a bad situation worse)

The only case where a citizen should act on his own are when one's being is in immediate danger, sees another being in immediate danger, and protecting his property. All other cases should be handled by law enforcement and not want to be cowboys under the disillusion of being heroic

 

[ctdonath]

one guy versus oh say 10, you think hes still gonna have the advantage?

He's 10x more motivated to get out of the situation than they are to keep him in it.
That's also 10 people getting in each others' way, hurting each other accidentally, and just complicating a situation which isn't theirs to be involved in.

Methinks your expectation of involvement of bystanders is misplaced. Most people will avoid a fight - and YOU are the one who started it, the thief was just running out the door with some stuff.

in that situation i wouldnt fight fair. nuts, adams apple, knee caps, shins, its all fair game in that situation.

Why? It ain't your stuff. You're escalating a situation from mere shoplifting to deadly force (adam's apple? crack that and he's dead of asphyxiation in minutes). The owner isn't concerned (store policy is "let 'em go"); by what right do YOU commence violence and bloodletting? You weren't involved save by proximity, but by choice have now forced the thief into a position of self-defense against you.

If you can restrain him without undue harm, fine. Problem is too many twits don't know where the legal, practical, and moral lines of force are. Someone starts shooting customers? fine; pull your CCW piece and stop him. Someone is yelling in the back of the store and someone is running out the front? you don't know what's going on, and it's not your problem.

Hence the reason store policy is "let him go".

 

[enigma2118]

Same at Home Depot

Yeah, if you google Home Depot and shoplifting you'll see the same story. Employee's loose their job for trying to take care of shoplifters themselves. You gotta follow your employer or corporate policy no matter how stupid it seems to you.

Like what one of the first responders said: It's all been thought through by many many suites and lawyers. This is the common rule for these types of stores. What could be a loss of hundreds could turn into a loss of millions. Crazy but true.

If you do want to do something about it, as an employee or stranger, get some high res pictures or video of the incident. Try to notice anything in particular about the "robber". Clothes, tattoos, strange limp. Listen to anything they say, like names. If your not an employee, keep your distance and try to get a license plate number. Basically do what you can with your ears and eyes. Hands off. Leave that to the Gunslingers.

 

[snberk103]

there is a big difference in RUNNING out of a store and waving to your friends and just walking out the door. and what community is this because it is amazing that the bank robber decided to just chill and wait for the cops

So maybe that is how I successfully shoplift... I pick something up and walk out the door waving? My point is that you don't know what is happening. If you intervene in a situation where think a crime is taking place you run the risk of misinterpreting what is happening, and instead of being the "good guy" you get busted for criminal assault. Sure, some situations may appear to be cut and dried... but as soon as you start getting involved you need to start making assumptions and conclusions in very short time, with not a lot of information.

Actually, please come to my community.... when you assault someone, mistakenly believing you are preventing a crime, they can sue you for medical damages, loss of income, and emotional distress. Canadian court awards don't tend to be as large as the US ones - but enough to put you or your parents into bankruptcy perhaps. Plus the criminal record that will prevent you from ever travelling overseas again.

Bank Robbers. If they were smart, they wouldn't need to rob banks.

you do realize that there will probably be other people in the store that will help subdue the criminal right. one guy versus oh say 10, you think hes still gonna have the advantage? ...

You do realize that in a situation like that, if other people do get involved (and they probably won't) they are likely to be confused and excited. They are just as likely to thump and kick you as the person you tackled. If they did not see the entire event they are much more likely to assume you are assaulting an innocent person, and thump you to save the other person. Even if they saw the entire event you are counting on other people thinking like you do, and reaching the same conclusions. You may have noticed that as far as this thread is concerned you are in a minority situation.

...and in that situation i wouldnt fight fair. nuts, adams apple, knee caps, shins, its all fair game in that situation.

What? The situation where you've assaulted someone in the believe that vigilantism is a positive societal thing?

Your actions also greatly increase the probability that a bystander is going to get hurt. All this for a phone that won't work.

 

[HLdan]

Wow, you guys really took that one comment literally. Guess I should have been more clear.

I can't believe you're actually use the kleptomania argument in defense of all thieves. Sure, some people have it. Its a reason, not an excuse. And most thieves do not have a medical excuse for their lawbreaking, although I'm sure they would love to use that excuse. Most urban areas where Apple stores are located also have high levels of poverty, so with poverty you get desperation and people who "have nothing to lose". Those with nothing to lose are most commonly the ones going to do this, and I'm sorry but that is no excuse to steal from others. Of course if bystander attempts to stop someone with nothing to lose, that will most likely end badly.

You wanna show me where I said ALL or MOST thieves? It's definitely not my reading comprehension that's not getting what you're saying, it's your writing skills that need attention.

 

[snberk103]

isnt naive synonymous with stupid?

...

No, it's not. Naive means you have a lack of experience. ... Stupid is a bit more active. ... One term is merely a factual description. The second implies an insult.
...

Young age can mean a certain degree of naiveness - a lack of wisdom based on experiencing life. Someone who is younger may have technical skills, like writing skills, blogging skills, repair skills but will likely not have the experiences of participating in all aspects of the community. I think that is tflournoy95'a situation. Could be yours too.

Without any other information to go on, I will assume they (and perhaps yourself) are naive. I might even call you two "ignorant" in the technical sense of the word. And it is not an insult. Look it up.

Now the caveats. I know older people who are both ignorant and stupid. At this stage I won't give them the benefit of claiming to be naive. I would perhaps also spin the word 'ignorant' a little past the technical sense. Ain't language fun? And I know some very wise younger people. I won't even attempt to pass on any wisdom I may have mistakenly picked up. All I can do is ask them questions that make them question their assumptions.

I would like to think that tflournoy95 is sitting at home re-thinking his basic assumptions about how to deal with a crime in progress. Even if they don't change their mind - but can back their decision with a really good well thought-out reasoning - that would be OK. I don't mind that they don't agree with me.... it's just the fuzzy thinking I wanted to challenge.

 

[Dr McKay]

Is that an Apple Policy or a law?

It's been the policy everywhere I've worked, if you're injured outside the store, the store wont cover you. Whats worse? The loss of a few thousand dollars? Or a human life?

 

[Fishrrman]

"Actually, please come to my community.... when you assault someone, mistakenly believing you are preventing a crime, they can sue you for medical damages, loss of income, and emotional distress. Canadian court awards don't tend to be as large as the US ones - but enough to put you or your parents into bankruptcy perhaps. Plus the criminal record that will prevent you from ever travelling overseas again."

Please visit Texas.

Then you'll learn something about freedom, self-defense, and how to handle criminals...

 

[tflournoy95]

"Actually, please come to my community.... when you assault someone, mistakenly believing you are preventing a crime, they can sue you for medical damages, loss of income, and emotional distress. Canadian court awards don't tend to be as large as the US ones - but enough to put you or your parents into bankruptcy perhaps. Plus the criminal record that will prevent you from ever travelling overseas again."

Please visit Texas.

Then you'll learn something about freedom, self-defense, and how to handle criminals...

haha guess where im moving after college

 

[snberk103]

...
Please visit Texas.

Then you'll learn something about freedom, self-defense, and how to handle criminals...

Considering the high crime-rate in the US (despite or because-of one the highest incarceration rates in the developed world); and the PATRIOT Act and FBI security letters and renditions; and the number of nations invaded by the US Army - I'm never sure how to interpret statements like that. Is it funny? Sarcastic? Tongue in Cheek perhaps? Is there a missing "just kidding" smilie? Perhaps it was posted by someone from the UK, or Sweden, or the Czech Republic, or Canada, or Japan? Some of whom are known for quiet humour.

I just don't know....

 

[artifex]

what? and where's parking?

Hope these idiots turn them off or cook the IMEI (highly illegal) before they get a ping on ATTs network. Apple won't track down "our" stolen/lost hardware, but they wont tolerate theft of trackable apple-owned hardware lol.

Why on Earth would you hope the crooks get away with it?

BTW, locals: I've forgotten where the parking is down there. Is it around the corner a bit? I have to bring my dead Macbook in next week. Also, this didn't seem to make the local news at all, last week?

p.s. does anyone have a black Macbook that still works? I haven't seen any but mine in months, and now I have a no-logo, nonbooting grey screen I would hate to think they're all dead this soon out of warranty.

edit: meh, I'd merge the trailing posts of mine into this one, but it looks like I can't delete them.

 

[artifex]

Given it was Texas, I'm suppressed no one had a CCW to take care of business.

I'm not a lawyer, I don't even know any, but don't I think a concealed carry permit gives you any right to exercise "street justice." You have your weapon to defend real threats against your life, and I think the castle laws here also say something about protection of your property or that of your neighbor. But it doesn't mean that if you see someone fleeing a store (unless it's your store, maybe?) you can start shooting.

ITG aside, if you're not in danger, and if nobody else's life is in danger, let them go.

 

[artifex]

For the record, the Knox Apple Store sucks and has sucked for years. After numerous instances of fail at the Knox location, I've given up and now go to Northpark or Willow Bend.

Oh, please don't say that. I've been told by others I know on FB that the Knox store is the best chance to get some service for my mb. I gave up on the service at the WB store a long time ago, and the NP store caused damage to my mb that they later had to repair, along with botching another repair and having to do it over.

 

[artifex]

Yeah I noticed that too...on a side note for Dallas people...W(hy)TF is the "Uptown" neighborhood called that when its literally blocks from the "Downtown" neighborhood....wouldn't Highland Park be uptownish...i mean it seems like every neighborhood in Dallas needs to have some trendy sounding name.

To quote someone talking about something completely different: "developers, developers, developers."

 

[elmateo487]

Post like this make me really wanna question how old you are? Seriously. It's common sense not to chase anyone outside of a store, especially in the honor of multi-billion dollar corporation. You're not looked at as a hero, you're look at as an insubordinate employee of the company's code of ethics and you will be fired, at least here in america. Any other country that condones employees of chasing thieves is a stupid country and their law is stupid as well. Those countries are not in favor of the safety of employed individuals.

DOES NO ONE THINK THIEVES ARE MENACES TO SOCIETY AND SHOULD BE STOPPED?

DOES EVERYTHING IMPORTANT INVOLVE MONEY/LAWYERS/LAWSUITS?

Does no one believe in good standards or morals anymore? A thief should be stopped in his tracks. For the sole sake of righting a wrong. I don't care about money, I care about putting the future repeat offender in jail.

It is so sad to hear "It's not my merchandise", "It will cost the company more". etc.

The ONLY argument I have found reasonable is getting yourself hurt, or someone else hurt. Otherwise, please, put them behind bars.

Out of the first 4 pages of this conversation I had to stop and write this. I heard less than 3 comments say that something should have been done.

It is a shame to see what lawyers have done to our country. A dreadful shame.

 

[snberk103]

DOES NO ONE THINK THIEVES ARE MENACES TO SOCIETY AND SHOULD BE STOPPED?

DOES EVERYTHING IMPORTANT INVOLVE MONEY/LAWYERS/LAWSUITS?

Does no one believe in good standards or morals anymore? A thief should be stopped in his tracks. For the sole sake of righting a wrong. I don't care about money, I care about putting the future repeat offender in jail.

It is so sad to hear "It's not my merchandise", "It will cost the company more". etc.

The ONLY argument I have found reasonable is getting yourself hurt, or someone else hurt. Otherwise, please, put them behind bars.

Out of the first 4 pages of this conversation I had to stop and write this. I heard less than 3 comments say that something should have been done.

It is a shame to see what lawyers have done to our country. A dreadful shame.

The next time you complain about high taxes, stop and think about the fact that if police forces were not-underfunded there would be more officers tracking down even petty criminals, instead of having to focus on the big stuff.

Most of the comments I read that said "it is only mechandise" or "it's someone else's stuff" were also saying that it is not worth putting yourself (or bystanders) into physical harm's way for "stuff". I didn't get the sense that even if there was a magical wand that could stop the thieves that people would not use it to stop the alleged criminals.

Tossing people in jail is not always the best way to stop crime (in fact for most cases it actually increases the crime rate). I'm not talking about violent criminals, or established repeat offenders.

Most times it is petty crime, by youth who are exploring the boundaries of societal boundaries. Toss them in jail and you do 3 things. 1) You put them in with a peer group who approve of what they did, reinforcing that behaviour. 2) They now get to go to 'crime school' and learn how to not get caught, and how to work the justice system 3) You give them a criminal record ensuring that it's almost impossible to get an honest job when they get released - but that's ok because now they can fall back onto their new social network and new job skills.

Even repeat offenders who are supporting a drug habit are better served by not tossing them in jail. If (and its a big If) you can clean them up they go from costing taxpayers $100K a year to potentially putting money back into the system by paying taxes. Maybe not a lot, but even if they don't quite make enough to pay taxes they are still saving the taxpayer the court and jail costs, and of course not breaking windows and costing you higher insurance premiums.

I'm not talking about serious, career, criminals - just the petty ones who are getting started.... which account for most crimes.

 

[starlight0229]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_0_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/532.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0.5 Mobile/8A306 Safari/6531.22.7)

I witnessed a robbery at the Tysons Mall Apple Store in Virginia. They used to have a checkout that faced the door, and I was standing at it, purchasing a screen protector, when I noticed the alarms go off. I looked up just in time to see two guys running out of the store, MacBook Pros under their arms. Think they might've grabbed a couple of 3GSes as well. The Apple Store employee who shut off the alarms literally just shrugged his shoulders at the whole situation. My guess is this is something of a common occurence.

I believe I may have been in the store that day as well. I overheard some employees talking about it and that a customer who was outside the store saw the guys running off with laptops under their arms and chased after them, catching the attention of an apple employee who was returning from lunch and followed. One guy got away, but the customer caught the other guy and put him in a headlock and got the laptop back.

 

[Doctor Q]

My solution: Stores should hire pickpockets to hang around just outside the exit doors. If they see a group of people running out with equipment, they don't stop them but they stealthily lift the wallet of one of them, then pass it to the police as evidence!

Hmm... would they then be charged with theft? Maybe this idea isn't so clever after all.

 

[HLdan]

DOES NO ONE THINK THIEVES ARE MENACES TO SOCIETY AND SHOULD BE STOPPED?

DOES EVERYTHING IMPORTANT INVOLVE MONEY/LAWYERS/LAWSUITS?

Does no one believe in good standards or morals anymore? A thief should be stopped in his tracks. For the sole sake of righting a wrong. I don't care about money, I care about putting the future repeat offender in jail.

It is so sad to hear "It's not my merchandise", "It will cost the company more". etc.

The ONLY argument I have found reasonable is getting yourself hurt, or someone else hurt. Otherwise, please, put them behind bars.

Out of the first 4 pages of this conversation I had to stop and write this. I heard less than 3 comments say that something should have been done.

It is a shame to see what lawyers have done to our country. A dreadful shame.

The only dreadful shame here is your post. No need to shout, nobody was shouting at you. Check the forum rules about this please.

Now, it's obvious you're just either not getting it, or you refuse to listen about this situation. This has nothing to do with money, morals or who's a menace to society. This is about what an employee does not have the right to do, period. An employee does not have the rights to chase a thief out of a store. This discussion may have moved to what goes on while you are outside, on your own time and minding your own business but my post that you quoted is about the topic of this thread.
You wanna go chasing thieves out the store of your job to look like a hero? Go right ahead, you won't be patted on the head for good achievement, your employer will be patting you on the head and telling you to get the hell out of their place of employment, Your Fired! You think Apple is gonna pat their employee on the head and say, "Hey thanks for saving our iPhones, here's a Macbook Pro and a metal of valor for your great work"?, hell no, their gonna give you your walking papers as any other employer should when you violate their code of ethics.

Someone mentioned it earlier and they were spot on, everybody has a role to play and that's why we pay police officers out our tax money to apprehend criminals, not company employees at Apple.

 

[ChrisA]

Why chase the thief? The eight iPhones cost Apple not much money and they will get them back soon enough when some one tries to activate them. I'm sure Apple looses far more iPhones to warranty covered defects than theft.

The person who will loose money is the guy who buys the phone in eBay or Craigslist. He will pay the thief and then go to try to use the phone only to find out it is reported as stolen.

 

[SqlMac]

Like ChrisA said, these will be up on http://dallas.craigslist.org soon most likely. Someone's gonna get burned.

Maybe the perps heard "jailbreaking an iPhone" was legal, and figured they'd just extend the context a bit further. ;P

 

[Craiglorocks]

Correct me if I am wrong, but last time I was in an Apple store I noticed the phones aren't your normal iPhone. I believe there was no SIM tray on the phone to pop out.

If this is true, the resale value of these are 0. Apple will lock them and you will not be able to switch the SIM out to use a current AT&T line. This makes these things worth nothing and Apple can trace them. They know the ID# of every device that is a floor model. A few hours with Find My iPhone and it will be over.