I think you're reading what you want to read TBH. You need to read the other conclusion as well which states that masks are ineffective and is backed up by far better research IMO. Look at the wealth of data on that site. Also, did you read my entire post? You need to objectively look at the actual studies, not someone's conclusion... again, because of the politics. It should be clear to anyone who can look at the data objectively that masks are not effective.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Apple Stores Will Continue to Require Masks for Now
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
No, I'm not making any such claim. You are literally arguing against peer-reviewed scientific studies by claiming that it's pseudoscience and a conspiracy theory. Now you present a counter-argument with a link to a Mayoclinic page about facemasks? That right there should tell you that your argument doesn't hold water.Pick the version you want and then claim those who disagree are arguing against peer-reviewed studies.
Can face masks protect against COVID-19?
Face masks can help slow the spread of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). Learn about mask types, which masks to use and how to use them.www.mayoclinic.org
You posted a link and I took a quote directly from the link and the quote is wrong, or I didn't read far enough into it, or there is more evidence disproving than proving?
You (and I) are welcome to believe what you want if you don't believe that masks, social distancing and hygiene have played a part (along with the vaccinations) of reducing the daily cases, the evidence doesn't support that.
The Mayo Clinic? One of the most prestigious instituions in the country? (or does it boil down to, who considers what to be a credible source?)
as i said swiss policy review (formerly swiss propaganda review) is literally a conspiracy theory website
in this particular case they have taken a small number of studies and done little write ups about them that misrepresent either their findings, their import, or both
when you rely on sources like swiss policy research and the epoch times you are likely so far down the rabbit hole that any information presented to you in an online forum that doesn’t fit the fantasy you’ve decided to believe in will be dismissed as fake anyway. so there’s really no point in further debate
Last edited:
Please tell me that you see how you just created a logical paradox. If you don't see it, then start by proving the negative statement that you can not prove a negative statement.
So, if I understand your point, it would be fallacious of me to assert it to be true that something doesn't exist and then ask someone to prove me wrong.
So, for example, this would be logically unsound?:
My point in all this is simply one of language. Don't state your personal experience as universal fact. If you had simply said "I haven't seen mention of a case where", then that would be reasonable. Saying that there are "absolutely/literally ZERO cases" suggests you have a command of the scientific literature that needs to be supported in an anonymous forum.
Yeah, that's most likely true. I was thinking of something I'd heard about meningitis, but on review it looks like that's bacterial meningitis, not viral-- which makes more sense. Bacteria can replicate without actually infecting you, viruses can't without actually getting inside the cell machinery.
No, things are not true until proven false. Things are true when proven true. Until then things are true or false with varying degrees of confidence.
There has not been much attention paid to transmission post vaccination yet, so there is limited confidence in the truth of any statement. But again, if we know that infected people transmit the disease, and we know vaccinated people can become infected, then there is work to be done to show that vaccinated people aren't able to transmit the disease once infected-- until that work is done, then I'd call it decidedly unproven that vaccinated people can not transmit the disease.
Last edited:
Don't argue about a site. Pick one peer reviewed study at a time, tell us what you think it says, and let's look at it. So far, the few I've looked at don't seem to say what I think you think they say.
I appreciate the thoughtful reply. Because I have no idea how to break into or up the paragraphs without messing up the format, I may not answer everything you typed, or may miss a lot of it.
Every group or person has a group they don't care about, or about whom or around whom their ideals pretzel. For instance, my body my choice goes only so far and apparently only relates to destroying your body with drugs, or overeating, and of course abortion. But when it comes to what we perceive as public health, it doesn't matter. It also doesn't matter that obesity related deaths (which, through destructive cultural norms are communicable) top what we are told are deaths attributed to Covid (with, of, or from plus the creative reporting) and have for every single year for about thirty years. But, obesity is a good business, both for the pharmaceutical businesses and for regular capitalists, who want nothing more than to expand their markets into every facet of life, until we have no skill but eating, pooping, and typing. Obesity is supported by the system. And we can see its affects in real time and through history: even family photos of decades past show no fat people, and now they are the norm. Medicine to combat it is expensive and the entire system is tailored to allow it to proliferate it and tailor to people that are victims of it. But it isn't considered an epidemic.
If you look at the WHO papers you will see them flip and flip back and forth on PCR cycle speeds, which, frankly is insane. My country was using 35-40 speed cycles, which are fast enough to find covid where it basically doesn't exist as well as any other disease. My wife works with PCR tests and had no idea the WHO was recommending fast cycles at first and now that they have lowered the threshold to below 28 for the vaccinated, we have another can of worms. There is no guideline that follows a single narrative.
And, you have to know about the reporting. Even mainstream media reported on it, where hospitals were given stipends when people purportedly died with Covid.
With so many fraught narratives, open lies, changing stories, and especially considering the insane propaganda that came out early from China with people dying in the streets (which happened no where else), we have a situation tailor made for fear. But, nothing adds up.
And I will not subject my family and hope no one would and as a traditional person, wish that there existed countries that still looked after their people explicitly, with prophylactic health in mind, not treatment. But instead, we have capitalistic run countries that exist for the corporations. The media reports what those corporations want and often are run by the same money. Then there is the revolving door of doctors in international medicine that go from governance positions to pharmaceutical companies.
In such a milieu there is no easy to way to suss what is truth. And of course, if you go to the happy vaccination sections of reddit, or look at how problems from vaccines are reported (nothing if you are not showing symptoms after fifteen minutes) and the process to file a complaint later is hard, we are not dealing with what we think we are dealing with.
But the simple fact is this: if this were a pandemic, we would see the effects with our eyes. Of course media scare tactics play a huge role in weakening people's health. The power of suggestion is huge, and all you have to do is look at advertising, what people complain about and play the maths. IN the 90s the big worry was that skinny models would make women become anorexic and of course skinny models were all over TV and media. And sure enough, many girls had huge eating disorders. But with regards to this thing, whose treatment narrative is decades old and rides on the coat tails of a ruined prophylactic health tradition of strong, good-eating people, we have an obvious vortex into which an unhealthy population no longer has models for health but only for treatment. And with the constant scare tactics of the media and the demoralisation that comes from constantly switching narratives that, frankly, mirror Kafka's The Trial, you have a population ready for a saviour.
For some that is the vaccination. For others it is the all go ahead sign from the government. For others, it is a hope that people will just switch off their TVs.
How would I visit a hospital where they are being treated? I would not be allowed. That said, there is no reliable way of testing for covid as you know. The PCR cycles have been changed from the top down. You can read the CDC and WHO documents yourself. I suggest everyone does.
As for all the severe deaths that are happening, I would question: is there an uptick in deaths across the globe that is out of line with historical data? Would it even be possible when the death rate is 1 in 10.000 for many places and 1 in 3.000 at worst?
I am not talking about global conspiracies against 'alternative' medicine. I am not speaking from within a bubble but from a long view. We live in a tiny moment in history where all things are being pulled into the centre and at the same time, all cultures, economies, traditions, religions, and medical practices are being destroyed and everyone made to follow the same brand new system.
You may love that, and there may be some advantages. If you get cut now you have a much higher chance of surviving because of antibacterial medicine. But even using the modern medicine benchmark, all modern medicine has to abide by real medical mafia systems, where all practices are judged by the same emergent group in this or that country, be it the ADA, AMA, or other, where even in the modern era, such structures didn't exist.
You cannot have a truly independent practice. That is almost completely banned. Unless you think that right now, we have a handle on all knowledge and that all our medical practices are fully on the right track and that tradition is always wrong, or that the future may look back on this time as totally right and offers no advice or addendums or revolutions, there is good reason to seriously look at this structure as a mafia.
I believe we have seen the effects with our eyes and this is a pandemic. If I'm understanding your post denying there is a pandemic is like denying the Holocaust happened or man landed on the moon in 1969.
1 in 3.000 people dying of, with, or from a disease, which most of us can never see or would not know about if the media didn't tell us, is a conspiracy theory? Not sure what the moon and holocaust are brought up for.
Here is homework: look at pandemics throughout history. How many per 1.000 died? What portion of the population was affected? How does Covid compare? If there is a discrepancy, how big is it? And if there is, how are such things defined? I won't call anyone here that truly believes this thing to be a huge horror 'conspiracy theorists' but at least take what I say at face value: if the news didn't tell you about it, would you actually see the effects of it?
At my wife's work place, two people contracted it and there was a small alert for a while but no one really cared. No one at her work place wants the vaccine, most don't consider it a vaccine (its nature genetic), and, since all of this is appeals to authority anyway, her work place is a pharmaceutical company that makes medicine, uses PCR tests, and evidently is full of conspiracy theorists that don't want to touch the things we are told are panacea.
You have a different definition of a pandemic than maybe some others and that's probably the rational behind the illogic in the post.
"Pandemic: Event in which a disease spreads across several countries and affects a large number of people".
Same to you. I read every word you wrote in the above thread and appreciate the time you spent to write it. I don't see things the same way but I enjoyed reading your thoughts and opinions.
I'm surprised the different responses to this event that I've seen in my own family let alone people on the internet.
Are you in Japan? I visited there once and that is without a doubt the nicest country I've ever visited. People so respectful, kind, patient, everything was clean, and everyone wore a mask when they were sick. Amazing place. My only regret was that I only got to spend a handful of days in Tokyo.
I've been told by people I know living in Peru that this happened in Peru (people dying in the streets). There is a lot of needless death in Peru because of a lack of oxygen. I believe this is now happening in India - but my only source for India is the media whereas Peru was relatives/people I know in Peru.
That is like calling capitalism selling markets, which libertarians like to use to prove to non-capitalists that capitalism is the default position of humanity. Viz., it is too broad a term whose catches are basically anything, covid, flu, obesity, or other.
I've been trying not to respond, because I've been finding your comments pretty disconnected and callous. Then something interesting occurred to me. You're in Japan. The reported death toll is 1 in 10,000. In the US, Europe, South America, the death toll is closer 1 in 500. That might help explain why you don't think you see anything happening, but other countries do.
Japan is in among a lucky few who have managed to avoid the worst of the pandemic, and most of those lucky few are around East Asia. An early theory about why those countries managed to beat back the spread more effectively than the rest of the world was because the first SARS was still in their memories and the governments and population were quick to respond and accept the need to take collective action.
I don't know how true that it, but it would be a sad irony if escaping the worst of this pandemic led those same countries to respond inadequately to the next one because their success this time somehow led them to believe the whole thing was a global over-reaction.
Allow yourself to accept the possibility that it's a big world and just because your island nation isn't seeing the death in the streets doesn't mean others aren't. Yes, I see it without watching the news.
I've completed my homework. Covid-19 is pretty respectable among global pandemics. Of course most of the pandemics you might find more gratifying happened before vaccines were invented and were mostly treated with leeches and bloodletting, so they have a bit of an unfair advantage in the rankings.
Last edited:
Where was I arguing about a site?? Are you sure you're even talking to the right person?
Constantly calling a site a conspiracy theory website doesn't make it true. If you don't trust the site, simply click the links to the actual studies. Problem solved!
And if in your delusion there's scant evidence that masks don't work while there's overwhelming evidence that masks do work, you shouldn't have a problem deluging us with those studies, right? Right?
As for there being no point in further debate, you should know that this was never a debate because you failed to present a single case or rebuttal. Ad hominem attacks do not count.
No trouble at all, but I am not basing this on Japan's situation, but that of the globe, the myriad completely incongruent narratives, the changing rules set by the CDC, WHO, and other institutions even for the most basic tasks, those being diagnosing or isolating Covid, categorising deaths (which even the mainstream media admits is fraught with WITH and not FROM cases), the complete re-categorisation of deaths of unrelated natures like that of my acquaintance, who died of a heart attack, but the hospital marked as a Covid death, of car crashes that are written the same, and more.
The efficacy of the vaccines, which have been pulled in some cases, or tainted, and, when at least one of them has been in clinical trials since a week or so after lockdown, and thanks to several direct preparatory scenarios such as t he military drills two years prior and the Johns Hopkins event 201 a month before breakout, I think it is fair at least to say that this isn't exactly what we are led to believe it is.
I have been pretty forthright though, so I can't see how I have been callous at all. But all things are being re-defined today; in England, for instance, new laws enshrine 'harm' into legality, whereby a person can cause harm in a casual conversation and not even realise it but now be charged as a criminal.
Where was I being callous?
Many peer reviewed studies vs. what amounts to political rhetoric at this point? An appeal to authority is not a valid argument. The most prominent scientists, including Einstein, at one point all believed the universe was static. Didn't make it true, just like Mayoclinic's mask information doesn't stand up to real science nor real world evidence.
I'm not sure what you're referring to exactly. We'll have to agree to disagree. All I will say is, the most recent confusion around masks should be telling.
I do need to add that we have no idea how many people have died OF or FROM covid, none at all, and comparing modern numbers to ancient numbers is a bit of a reach. Imagine a world of 500 million where 5 million died. That is 1 in 100, but in a world of 7 billion, where a purported 3,5 million have died, and again, we have no idea how many actually died OF or FROM covid? There is no comparison, let alone to plagues.
I am not being callous.
I think that a system that sets itself up against all traditions and then forces all peoples to use the same system or else, and ignores their worries, cultures, and more, in order to establish a singular state of all things economic, medical, and governmental, is callous.
Nearly all traditional vocations have been killed, both medicinal (even modern forms) and other. All of it. No one is allowed to be separate from the new system. No kings, no gods, no traditions. All must be car parks, high rises, degenerate partying, and broken families. And, in the middle of that, all must accept a singular medical system whereby even modern medicine practiced outside of a singular governing body, is illegal.
And, the media and the pharmaceuticals and banks, all of which receive or fund themselves using the same material founts, want the entire population of the planet to take a vaccine. They do this whilst promoting libertine lifestyles that have for decades ended in heart failure, obesity, and myriad other life foreshortening side effects, but still they get behind the vaccine and this one narrative as existential.
This is the most callous time in all of history, but a person or a people wary of singular narratives that pull the entire world in is demonised. I don't get it.
The CDC seems to disagree. Read the following quotes.
1) “COVID-19 vaccines are effective at protecting you from getting sick. Based on what we know about COVID-19 vaccines, people who have been fully vaccinated can start to do some things that they had stopped doing because of the pandemic.”
Source
2) “After weeks of telling people that even fully vaccinated people might carry virus in their noses, mouths or throats and breathe or spit it out onto others, the CDC says the evidence shows this is unlikely.
The reason -- viral load. At least three major studies have shown that fully vaccinated people are not likely to test positive for coronavirus, which indicates they are not carrying it in their bodies, whether they have symptoms or not.”
Source
Furthermore, they believe loosening restrictions for fully vaccinated folks is an important thing. Read the quote below.
3) “In summary, relaxing certain prevention measures for fully vaccinated people may be a powerful motivator for vaccination, and thus should be an important goal of the U.S. vaccination program," those guidelines, still up on the CDC site, read.”
Source
The three quotes above, all from reputable sources, seem to be at odds with the statements you all have made.
From,
A person who chose to get the vaccine as soon as they could, has worn a mask since the start of the pandemic, and has defended vaccine/COVID restrictions
Last edited:
The CDC and WHO have reported zero cases to demonstrate a vaccinated individual transmitting the virus to another person. That isn't personal experience. Its non-existence means you'll need proof of it happening to disprove my statement. That's just how it works, sorry you don't like it. The burden of proof is on you, not me, no matter how many diatribes you want to waste your time writing only to demonstrate you don't understand anything about this.