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I don't think it would be acceptable for the DoJ to knowingly let Apple keep breaking the law if the DoJ believes Apple is doing so. If the consequences of finding Apple in violation of the law are problematic, the law would need to be changed but that's not the job of the DoJ.

I agree with this. If you want to change Apple's or the tech sectors behaviour write laws that make that happen. When the allegations start talking about "per se" violations were are getting into very murky territory. They don't violate the existing law "per se".

Big Tech needs to be reined in, they today have near limitless power over our lives. But that can/should only happen when news laws are written. The EU approach as self interested it is, is the better way. Write a new law, then enforce it.

Since I love analogies so much this is the equivalent of giving a 24 year old in daddy's Ferrari a ticket and a prison sentence before he turns the engine over, simply because he "may" do something in the future.
 
I honestly don't understand what the disconnect is. Apple strangles messaging for non iOS users communicating with iOS users by keeping certain features only on its platform. I'm NOT opining on whether they are entitled to do that or not, whether ethically or legally, simply that they do exactly this.

But is this illegal? How do you write a law that is not punitive to Apple or any larger party. Do we artificially cap the size of any company at a market cap of $1 Trillion?

Apple does nothing to prevent users on any platform to communicate with its users. The only thing that they have a stranglehold on is ONE messaging platform, iMessage. The free market made iMessage the default app in the US. iMessage is and always has been a protocol designed exclusively for communications between Apple users. Is that in itself illegal?

The green/blue bubble issue is the "Pro Bully" lobby getting its way. Kids love to be little *******s in excluding peers. If they really wanted to they could all chat using any of the dozens of platforms that are fully open. But nope they will use any means necessary to make those that chose a different phone second class citizens.
 
Consumers have two choices today, Apple and Android. I choose the locked in Apple ecosystem. Why should my choice be diluted to satisfy the small amount of users who want to use an Apple Watch Ultra with Samsung phone. Android users have so many pools to pee in, stay out of the one we have.

I’m on the opposing side. Kind of. I use both iOS and Android. Why should I be artificially restricted because some users feel uncomfortable about choice.
 
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That wouldn't likely come under consideration until much later, depending on how things played out.
Well, actually it seems even breaking Apple up is not out of consideration it seems. Sorry for quoting wrongly.

The government has not ruled out breaking up one of the largest companies in the world, with a Justice Department official saying on a briefing call that structural relief was on the table if the U.S. were to win.

 
I'd be fine with that, I don't ascribe to the completely marketing take that my iphone would suddenly become a huge security risk full of malware and viruses. After all my MacOS computer is completely open and hasn't blown up quite yet.

Your Mac is at bet 15% of the market. That plus its strong security architecture, make it a very undesirable attack target for Malware. MacOS had a market share of only 8% ten years ago.

Opening up iOS opens new attack vectors that do not exist today. Unlike MacOS, iOS is 50-70% of the market in the US making it a very desirable target. Furthermore given that iOS devices are more likely to be used by affluent people worldwide, that target becomes very attractive target for the worlds scum.
 
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I’m on the opposing side. Kind of. I use both iOS and Android. Why should I be artificially restricted because some users feel uncomfortable about choice.
What if we find that a significant majority of iOS users want it this way? My friends of whom many are very technically savvy are split 70/30 iOS/Android. They know exactly what choice they are making. To win their case. the DoJ may need to demonstrate that many/most users feel they are constrained, not just a few.
 
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This makes zero sense. On a technical level, it would take an extreme amount of engineering resources for Apple to support Android apps on AW.

What? As an AWU owner I would like to be able to link my AWU to both iOS and Android for at least minimum functionality. While full interactivity would be awesome, I don’t expect it. Then again there is the artificial block Apple has that does not allow my AWU to see or be seen by my iPad Pro. Yet my Garmin can do both. :rolleyes:
 
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What if we find that a significant majority of iOS users want it this way? My friends of whom many are very technically savvy are split 70/30 iOS/Android. They know exactly what choice they are making. To win their case. the DoJ may need to demonstrate that many/most users feel they are constrained, not just a few.

Disingenuous at best. Most iOS users have no real clue at just what could be done with their Apple devices. Some of us do. Most don’t. If they don’t know and have been restricted from finding out via interaction, how does your supposition hold water? How many times have many of us heard “I didn’t know it could do that!” Or conversely “Why can’t mine do that?”.
 
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By the same logic you'd be fine with Apple being forced to enable indiscriminate sideloading on iOS, since people are already doing that, but removing arbitrary limits (such as 3 apps at most, 7-days at a time, etc...) makes it easier
hahaha no.

one is an app to replace already existing app that was set as default.

what you want is to open the entire OS up to allow any app you want, even ones currently not allowed, onto you phone.
and that opening could cause issues for others.

not the same at all
but you know that... geez
 
"couple of gig" is pretty darn easy to get on today's phone's high resolution recording, VERY easy. But I don't think anyone is asking for a full version of videos to be transmitted, videos get compressed to fit in that 100mb limit so it's a moot point.
oh these people werent talking short home movies... :)
 
I honestly don't understand what the disconnect is. Apple strangles messaging for non iOS users communicating with iOS users by keeping certain features only on its platform. I'm NOT opining on whether they are entitled to do that or not, whether ethically or legally, simply that they do exactly this.
they dont strangle non iPhones...
they just use the SMS and MMS messaging as fallback on non iPhones.
the same crap old standard that was never meant for high res or large videos.
the MMS file size is set (and compressed at upload) by the carrier. not Apple.

you know this. it's been written so many times in these posts.

Apple extended messaging using their servers to other iOS users.
EXTENDED not crippled. :)
 
I'd be fine with that, I don't ascribe to the completely marketing take that my iphone would suddenly become a huge security risk full of malware and viruses. After all my MacOS computer is completely open and hasn't blown up quite yet.
again, Macs have always been open to install what you like. including viruses.

iOS was designed to be controlled to ensure privacy and security like you want on a portable device you carry around all the time and could lose or use to pay with. Not like a desktop or laptop.

you know this too.
just repeating things doesnt make them true.

Apple know their OS best.
If they say there are risks then that's the authority on the matter.
Noone knows how all the private APIs work. They arent documented.
You dont have access to the source code.
 
I’m on the opposing side. Kind of. I use both iOS and Android. Why should I be artificially restricted because some users feel uncomfortable about choice.
Why should you be limited?

Well you know iOS is walled. You knew before you bought the device.
Use your Android for the things you cant do on iOS. it's that simple.

The rest of us dont have to be comfortable about you choosing for us.
It's really not all about you.

We chose what was on offer knowing as well as you did what the iOS limits were.
 
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What? As an AWU owner I would like to be able to link my AWU to both iOS and Android for at least minimum functionality. While full interactivity would be awesome, I don’t expect it. Then again there is the artificial block Apple has that does not allow my AWU to see or be seen by my iPad Pro. Yet my Garmin can do both. :rolleyes:
samsung arent support the watches on iOS either... not enough reward.

just accept the watches are accessories tied to a particular OS and work best there.
 
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I honestly don't understand what the disconnect is. Apple strangles messaging for non iOS users communicating with iOS users by keeping certain features only on its platform. I'm NOT opining on whether they are entitled to do that or not, whether ethically or legally, simply that they do exactly this.
You know what I do whenever I connect with a good team mate I meet over call of duty on Playstation? "Hey what's your telegram? playstation messaging sucks."
 
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RCS, at least Google's implementation, has a size limit of 10.24GB but obviously that's restricted by the carriers which have around the same 100mb limit
Obviously? no. This is precisely why Apple avoided RCS initially: confusion.

Platform limitation vs carrier limitation. Even from that statement I don't know what you mean carrier restricted. Does that mean over cellular, it's limited to 100MB, but when I connect to wifi, it's 10.24GB? what if Apple's limit is 5.1GB? Apple user can send 10.24 GB to Android devices but not receive 10.24GB? Will it bounce when the user isn't on wifi?
 
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Disingenuous at best. Most iOS users have no real clue at just what could be done with their Apple devices. Some of us do. Most don’t. If they don’t know and have been restricted from finding out via interaction, how does your supposition hold water? How many times have many of us heard “I didn’t know it could do that!” Or conversely “Why can’t mine do that?”.
It is stated in very clear and concise words by Apple that a iPhone is required to use an Apple Watch. Anyone who buys one thinking that requirement is not true kind of deserves the wake up call.

Now could Apple write an app for Android phones that basically does the same thing as the Apple Watch management app that is included with iOS; of course they could, but why would they? And why should they be forced to?

I will agree with you that Apple's documentation for what their devices will and will not do is kind of Fubar. A lot of functionality is discovered exactly as you describe.

The iMessage vs. SMS/MMS is entirely on the cell carriers. That is going to be very easy for Apple to prove in court. It is also going to be very easy to show how other messaging apps work perfectly fine between iOS and Android. The comment about kids being little ***** is golden. Yep kids will do anything and everything to single peers out as not being part of the "cool kid" crowd.
 
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What? As an AWU owner I would like to be able to link my AWU to both iOS and Android for at least minimum functionality. While full interactivity would be awesome, I don’t expect it. Then again there is the artificial block Apple has that does not allow my AWU to see or be seen by my iPad Pro. Yet my Garmin can do both. :rolleyes:
"at least minimum functionality"

meaning what? access to SMS messages? what if you have Android RCS messages but your iPhone doesn't support Android RCS messages, but your contacts list has an android guy? Your Apple Watch sends the message as RCS but on your iPhone it will revert to SMS to continue the conversation? or does it not see the message at all?

this level of confusion gets crazy for such a small group of people who do have iPhone and Android.
 
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I'd be fine with that, I don't ascribe to the completely marketing take that my iphone would suddenly become a huge security risk full of malware and viruses. After all my MacOS computer is completely open and hasn't blown up quite yet.
Oh I totally agree. I brought it up since the user I replied to is against sideloading but they went and posted that, which contradicts their stance on sideloading.
 
hahaha no.

one is an app to replace already existing app that was set as default.

what you want is to open the entire OS up to allow any app you want, even ones currently not allowed, onto you phone.
and that opening could cause issues for others.

not the same at all
but you know that... geez
Nope, you're bringing stuff up knowing full well you're moving the goalposts. Your original comment implied no such nonsense, so don't go around saying it's different 'cause it's not. Or what, do you expect me to believe it's totally different just because Apple is more unwilling to open up now than Microsoft was back in the 90s?
 
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"at least minimum functionality"

meaning what? access to SMS messages? what if you have Android RCS messages but your iPhone doesn't support Android RCS messages, but your contacts list has an android guy? Your Apple Watch sends the message as RCS but on your iPhone it will revert to SMS to continue the conversation? or does it not see the message at all?

this level of confusion gets crazy for such a small group of people who do have iPhone and Android.
The only way this gets solved is for the FCC to mandate a standard that all carriers and tech companies adhere to.
 
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iOS was designed to be controlled to ensure privacy and security like you want on a portable device you carry around all the time and could lose or use to pay with.
Yes. They designed the security system known as App Sandboxing to tackle that exact issue. That is how they ensure security on iOS. Not by limiting users' ability to install apps.

Apple know their OS best.
If they say there are risks then that's the authority on the matter.
Is that why they have a bug bounty program to incentivize third parties to discover bugs they don't know? 😂
 
Read the rest of Sundays Gurman’s Power On Newsletter then discuss

Apple also hasn’t been one to welcome openness or competition. It refused to bring its iMessage app to Android phones and only agreed to adopt the cross-platform RCS messaging system under mounting pressure. Apple makes developers use its in-app purchase system, shuns cloud-gaming services and has been reluctant to open up its tap-to-pay chip to outside apps — all because it wants to protect its kingdom from rivals.

That’s provided the US Department of Justice with plenty of fodder for its antitrust lawsuit, which was filed on Thursday. But the case relies mostly on outdated arguments and cites problems that Apple is already resolving. It even levels the dubious claim that Apple makes its products worse in order to harm rivals. (The DOJ also takes credit for Apple’s success, attributing the company’s rise to a Microsoft Corp. antitrust settlement in 2001.)

But perhaps the biggest flaw in the case: It does little to prove that Apple has harmed consumers.

The lawsuit claims that the main reason people hold on to their iPhones is because Apple makes it difficult to switch, not because people — I dunno — actually like their iPhones. The DOJ goes as far as to claim that Apple is trying to hurt automakers with a new version of CarPlay that takes over more of the instrument panel. But that service is completely optional for both consumers and auto brands (and, let’s face it, not at risk of being widespread anytime soon).

The government even makes the fairly silly assertion that Apple’s control over the iPhone led to the very public failures of Amazon.com Inc. and Microsoft in smartphones. It argues that cloud-gaming apps were barred in order to sell pricier iPhone hardware and that Apple is responsible for the learning curve that makes it more difficult to switch to Android.

There are very real concerns with some of Apple’s practices. But the Justice Department spends less time on those issues, focusing instead on half-baked claims that suggest a lack of familiarity with modern technology.


Let’s quickly address the first three complaints, which have either been resolved or are at least a bit misleading:

  • On super apps: In January, Apple expanded what super apps could do, making it easier for applications to have their own set of embedded mini apps. WeChat, meanwhile, has always been allowed. Super apps have failed in the US, not only because of Apple, but because they’ve never caught on culturally (other than Facebook to some extent). And here’s the great irony: Only huge companies can create super apps, and a super app by very definition hurts smaller developers. So, what are we even doing here?
  • Also in January, Apple opened up streaming games so a developer can create a single app that offers access to a library of titles. For years, Apple allowed developers to offer games that stream from the cloud, but it barred companies like Microsoft and Nvidia Corp. from releasing a single app with access to their full cloud libraries. This was a real issue — one I first raised four years ago.
  • Last year, Apple said that RCS, or rich communication services, will come to the iPhone as part of an update to iOS 18 at the end of 2024. That should usher in a new era of interoperability. It’s true, though, that Apple doesn’t allow third-party developers to send SMS messages and that the company will probably never enable iMessage on Android.
To be fair to the DOJ, Apple might not have made these changes if it weren’t for the fear of this very lawsuit and other regulatory efforts globally. And there’s little to stop the US government from going after Apple for past behavior, as the European Union did in relation to streaming music services. The Justice Department lawyers also may be sitting on more information and evidence that will come to light as the case unfolds.

Now, on to the last two items, which are entirely reasonable:

  • Regarding smartwatches, it’s true that the iPhone’s operating system works best with an Apple Watch. The company clearly does that to sell more watches and keep consumers locked into its product ecosystem (though Apple cites privacy and security reasons as well). Apple really should do more to support third-party devices on the iPhone, including watches. And this doesn’t seem like it would be a massive undertaking.
  • The company also cites security and privacy reasons for failing to let outside firms use the near-field communication, or NFC, chip to build Apple Pay competitors. But it is more likely that the company wants to protect the royalty it gets from each Apple Pay transaction. Apple has already opened up NFC access in Europe, and I am told that engineering work to do so in the US is already underway.
At this juncture, it’s not clear what the US ultimately wants Apple to do — whether it’s paying a hefty fine, changing its practices or both. But regardless of the outcome, Apple is likely to continue to overhaul its software and move closer to the approach it’s been forced to take in Europe.

Besides opening up the NFC chip to third parties in the US, Apple will likely broaden its support of outside smartwatches, app stores, in-app payment services, physical trackers, browser engines and voice assistants. And you can bet that Apple will have to make it easier to transfer data from an iPhone. The one big item that I think will never change, though, is bringing iMessage to Android. Apple is dead set against it.
 
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I honestly don't understand what the disconnect is. Apple strangles messaging for non iOS users communicating with iOS users by keeping certain features only on its platform. I'm NOT opining on whether they are entitled to do that or not, whether ethically or legally, simply that they do exactly this.
I message perfectly fine with my family that use Android phones, with absolutely no strangulation problem. I do expect they would be somewhat annoyed if I forced them to use some Apple protocol, though.
 
In the wake of the 1990 Microsoft Anit-trust case, this has massive implications and could very well be the most devastating impact on Apple. A Victory for the DOJ will significantly degrade to a high change of an organizational break-up.
 
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