Apple Sued by U.S. Department of Justice, Says Lawsuit is 'Wrong'

[BaldiMac]

Apple’s reasoning to stay out of this “mess” was to close hold iMessage and lock in users.

Apple has not stated that reason for not supporting RCS. You're simply begging the question.

IMessage is not the dominate per se, rather it deliberately degrades or prohibits (forced to SMS/MMS) any other messaging platform. It also interferes with messaging when intersecting other platforms.

No, it doesn't. Your statement doesn't even make sense. iMessage has nothing to do with alternate messaging platforms and does nothing to degrade them.

Not what I meant but yes, I do agree. For me, to accomplish a project, task or tasks, the OS should be immaterial.

That's exactly the opposite of what I said. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

[ender78]

So I just read something on Ars that said the EU is under the impression that Apple, Google and Meta are all non compliant to their new DMA law. If that were the case, would also all the game box manufacturers also be non compliant?

I think this is going to get real ugly real fast.

On of the funny things is that they believe that they don't comply but that it will take them a year to produce those findings .

 

[danpass]

So, Apple is not bending the knee to give the US gov a backdoor into people’s private lives.

Now the gov is using the DOJ to manufacture this “antitrust case”

Stop using my taxpayer money to do tyrant things ….

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[dk001]

You do realize that even if/when they add RCS support, it's still going to fall back on SMS/MMS as that is still the universal/lowest common denominator standard that all carriers support? Even if they work with Google to establish better encryption and multimedia features for RCS, not all carriers that support RCS will support those features.

Yes. It will take a long while to move out SMS/MMS.
So many don’t think about that Apple is adding RCS support. They have said nada about RCS functionality.

I don’t see them working with Google. Rather with GSM and using the standard to replace Google’s RCS E2EE.

 

[dk001]

Apple has not stated that reason for not supporting RCS. You're simply begging the question.

I didn’t say that was for RCS. Rather the reason Apple decided not to push iMessage to be the messaging standard.

No, it doesn't. Your statement doesn't even make sense. iMessage has nothing to do with alternate messaging platforms and does nothing to degrade them.

If I want to send a video as an example to another platform, Apple forces it via MMS. That degrades. it. Same with receiving it. Unless it is between iMessage’s.

That's exactly the opposite of what I said. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

No it isn’t. I’m looking for apps that work irrespective of the OS. Your’s was more middle of the road.

 

[dk001]

So, Apple is not bending the knee to give the US gov a backdoor into people’s private lies.

Now the gov is using the DOJ to manufacture this “antitrust case”

Stop using my taxpayer money to do tyrant things ….

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Can you expand on this as I am not seeing what your are alluding too. Unless I missed where the DOJ is asking for a backdoor. Thought that was the Senate.

 

[BaldiMac]

I didn’t say that was for RCS.

Sure you did. You clearly said RCS was a mess and that was Apple's reason for staying out of the mess.

Rather the reason Apple decided not to push iMessage to be the messaging standard.

Apple never considered making iMessage a standard as far as I'm aware, so that makes no sense.

If I want to send a video as an example to another platform, Apple forces it via MMS. That degrades. it. Same with receiving it. Unless it is between iMessage’s.

So much wrong there. Apple doesn't force you to use MMS. You have a multitude of options. If you choose to use MMS, it has limits that have nothing to do with Apple.

You also did a switch from other "messaging platforms" to a "platform" (as in OS).

No it isn’t. I’m looking for apps that work irrespective of the OS. Your’s was more middle of the road.

Nope. Your looking for apps that work irrespective of the OS. I'm looking for apps that work specifically with the OS I choose. These are opposites.

 

[danpass]

Can you expand on this as I am not seeing what your are alluding too. Unless I missed where the DOJ is asking for a backdoor. Thought that was the Senate.

edit: should be ‘lives’ vs lies

as to what I’m alluding to, it is generally believed that FBI / gov wants to have a backdoor into Apple (and Google and everyone else) and that Apple is resisting such a request.

So now the gov brings pressure indirectly with this bogus antitrust case.

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[Samplasion]

go reread the comment.

replacing Internet Explorer with another BROWSER that has one function, to access the internet and present webpages is totally different to sideloading any app and requiring the OS to modified to allow it.

you aren't doing your case any service with such tangential and factually wrong "conclusions".

Whatever, there's no case to defend because Apple has to allow browsers now. But still, the hypocrisy is so thick that you could cut it with a knife lmao

and how good they have a bug bountry. encourage more testing and reporting errors before they can be exploited.
other companies do the same.

you really are stretching things to make some weird justification. it sounds desperate to be honest...

I'm not debating the concept of bug bounties, but the fact Apple has them means they don't know their OS as deeply as you make them out...

But eh, if all you got are ad hominem then that speaks volume about your motives

 

[dk001]

Sure you did. You clearly said RCS was a mess and that was Apple's reason for staying out of the mess.

No. Think you are getting the timeline in the wrong order.

Apple never considered making iMessage a standard as far as I'm aware, so that makes no sense.

Apple was considering adding iMessage to Android then pulled back. During he same time Apple was asked to help determine the messaging standard but bowed out. This was around the same time time frame.

So much wrong there. Apple doesn't force you to use MMS. You have a multitude of options. If you choose to use MMS, it has limits that have nothing to do with Apple.

Yes they do. If you are an iMessage user or communicate to an iMessage user and do not use iMessage, SMS/MMS is your only option.

You also did a switch from other "messaging platforms" to a "platform" (as in OS).

True. I am looking beyond in that statement. Oops.

Nope. Your looking for apps that work irrespective of the OS. I'm looking for apps that work specifically with the OS I choose. These are opposites.

Okay. I misread. I thought you were looking for apps that are available for all OS’s.

 

[dk001]

edit: should be ‘lives’ vs lies

as to what I’m alluding to, it is generally believed that FBI / gov wants to have a backdoor into Apple (and Google and everyone else) and that Apple is resisting such a request.

So now the gov brings pressure indirectly with this bogus antitrust case.

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That’s a given. A way to bypass encryption.
I’m not seeing that as a determined outcome from this suit. Now if they asked to remove E2EE …. But that may be more a monitoring than a backdoor.

 

[BaldiMac]

No. Think you are getting the timeline in the wrong order.

No, I didn’t. Post 1692 certainly came before post 1699.

Apple was considering adding iMessage to Android then pulled back. During he same time Apple was asked to help determine the messaging standard but bowed out. This was around the same time time frame.

So? That has nothing to do with your claim.

Yes they do. If you are an iMessage user or communicate to an iMessage user and do not use iMessage, SMS/MMS is your only option.

What in the world are you talking about? iMessage to iMessage is by definition over iMessage.

 

[wbeasley]

Whatever, there's no case to defend because Apple has to allow browsers now. But still, the hypocrisy is so thick that you could cut it with a knife lmao

I'm not debating the concept of bug bounties, but the fact Apple has them means they don't know their OS as deeply as you make them out...

But eh, if all you got are ad hominem then that speaks volume about your motives

motive?

you're the one implying Apple need to institute a bug bounty because they write crap code.
All code can have errors. i started out maintaining mainframe code and I can tell you not every coder writes clear, well documented, working code. so much junk collected in the millions of line of code over the years, the maintenance crew were reluctant to remove stuff. We would comment out huge sections we thought werent used and sit back and watch for unexpected results. Apple and Microsft have both been around long enough to have the exact problem. Original coders long gone, tools changed, new people come onboard.

running a bug hunt and rewarding those who find them makes perfect sense.

didnt someone already say they were running Edge and their phone keyboard locked up?
not being in the EU, I dont know what browsers are being offered to them to use. Is Edge one?
having used the desktop Edge, it's not something i'd be choosing as a default on a phone. and not a v1.0 option.

 

[wbeasley]

Game box manufacturers do not currently fall under the EU’s gatekeeper definition.

if XBox and Playstatation allow other devs to put games and apps on their devices, they are indeed gatekeepers.
they set the rules, they approve what goes there.

they charge commissions for their efforts.

if that isnt gate keeper then what else do they need to do to earn the title?

 

[BaldiMac]

if XBox and Playstatation allow other devs to put games and apps on their devices, they are indeed gatekeepers.
they set the rules, they approve what goes there.

they charge commissions for their efforts.

if that isnt gate keeper then what else do they need to do to earn the title?

The EU has set a number of arbitrary metrics in their definition of gatekeepers including numbers of consumer and business users.

44 million users and you are good to go. But 45 million and you are now magically a danger that must be controlled. (For one example.)

 

[wbeasley]

The EU has set a number of arbitrary metrics in their definition of gatekeepers including numbers of consumer and business users.

44 million users and you are good to go. But 45 million and you are now magically a danger that must be controlled. (For one example.)

A quick search...

"The three primary players in the console gaming market are Microsoft, Nintendo, and Sony, with a combined installed base of over 142 million gaming consoles in 2020. The global installed base of console gaming hardware for Sony is forecast to reach 59.3 million units by 2025."

Sony better start getting worried

And even by the 2020 figure, so should Microsoft and Nintendo...

 

[BaldiMac]

A quick search...

"The three primary players in the console gaming market are Microsoft, Nintendo, and Sony, with a combined installed base of over 142 million gaming consoles in 2020. The global installed base of console gaming hardware for Sony is forecast to reach 59.3 million units by 2025."

Sony better start getting worried

And even by the 2020 figure, so should Microsoft and Nintendo...

The only count EU users, so they have a pretty large cushion. Of course, the EU can change the threshold at any time.

 

[wbeasley]

The only count EU users, so they have a pretty large cushion. Of course, the EU can change the threshold at any time.

funny they only count EU users for this threshold but are happy to count worldwide sales for the whole compnay when issuing fines

 

[ender78]

Apple had the opportunity to make iMessage the default across the mobile world - iOS and Android. Apple would not have held 100% market share rather they would have been the directing “force” on the evolution of messaging. Apple elected not to do that. So now we are looking at RCS.

Do you think that this would not have results in another anti-trust case about how much control Apple has of the messaging market, loose loose for Apple.

 

[ender78]

Not what I meant but yes, I do agree. For me, to accomplish a project, task or tasks, the OS should be immaterial.

The only way that this happens is when there is only one OS. You will always have platform lock in of some sort.

 

[lartola]

Not in the US, it's not reasonable to expect users to switch all of their contacts to 3rd party apps. For myself that's hundreds of business, personal, friends, family, establishments, etc contacts and to try to force them to use a 3rd party app, and which of those multiple apps they would use, then have them monitor which app each contact uses is needlessly burdensome and impossible. That argument just does NOT work in the US where text messaging evolved very differently.

That’s what I said: Apple not opening up imessage is only a problem for americans, not for anyone else in the world, because they refuse at all costs to use any 3rd party messaging apps. Thanks for elaborating on that.

 

[dk001]

Do you think that this would not have results in another anti-trust case about how much control Apple has of the messaging market, loose loose for Apple.

Could be. If Apple charged for it only in the non-iOS world? Interesting thought.

 

[dk001]

The only way that this happens is when there is only one OS. You will always have platform lock in of some sort.

Today yes. Especially if the apps are built into the OS instead of being an actual app. Instead of the OS forcing certain functionality on you, allow the user to pick what they want and use it and the apps in the manner they want.

 

[wbeasley]

Do you think that this would not have results in another anti-trust case about how much control Apple has of the messaging market, loose loose for Apple.

exactly, if Apple had created a Messaging app that could do everything then they would be in trouble for being anticompetitive again and monopolistic. By not working cross platform, the enhance the app for their users while still allowing other cross platform apps to provide something Apple doesnt.

User laziness to change to a better tool is consumer behaviour not corporate.

If the EU make all these forced changes and users still just use the Apple app store and dont sideload will the EU still go after Apple again? You cant force users to use certain functions. they have options now to send large files and the US ones arent using them.

 

[spinedoc77]

That’s what I said: Apple not opening up imessage is only a problem for americans, not for anyone else in the world, because they refuse at all costs to use any 3rd party messaging apps. Thanks for elaborating on that.

The wording "refuse to use" isn't accurate, more like it's much too difficult to implement. The issue that it's a problem for Americans is relevant because this entire thread is about a lawsuit initiated by the UNITED STATES dept of justice. All of y'all in the EU can just keep the entire "just use Whatsapp" comments out of here because it's simply not a viable solution to the way text messaging evolved in this country.