Apple Sued by U.S. Department of Justice, Says Lawsuit is 'Wrong'

[spinedoc77]

fortunately both your opinion and mine dont determine what standards are used and implemented.

the OS authors decide what and how they will implement.

USB standards are updated but they still allow products using the old standards given the number of over priced USB thumb drives in the local supermarket.

Yep and also regulations/law as is the case with the FCC and internet bandwidth, as well of course as consumer sentiment.

 

[dk001]

How many times has it been discussed that RCS support is coming later this year. Whom do you expect Apple to work with to establish this new encryption standard?

Apple said they are using the defined standard and will work with the GSM Assoc to help bring encryption to RCS later. There is no current defined standard encryption for RCS (why Google pushed theirs). Apple does not want to use the current Google encryption standard.

 

[truthsteve]

Only if you buy a Galaxy 3 or earlier model.

no? my mom's Fitbit gets basic notifications from her iPhone SE

 

[avkills]

Not in the US, it's not reasonable to expect users to switch all of their contacts to 3rd party apps. For myself that's hundreds of business, personal, friends, family, establishments, etc contacts and to try to force them to use a 3rd party app, and which of those multiple apps they would use, then have them monitor which app each contact uses is needlessly burdensome and impossible. That argument just does NOT work in the US where text messaging evolved very differently.

WhatsApp you do not need to do anything with your contacts, you can give the app access to your current contact list, so I do not get this argument. The contact list in WhatsApp tells you if one of your contacts is using it.

My guess is over 90% of people on Android use WhatsApp.

 

[avkills]

Apple said they are using the defined standard and will work with the GSM Assoc to help bring encryption to RCS later. There is no current defined standard encryption for RCS (why Google pushed theirs). Apple does not want to use the current Google encryption standard.

And can we blame them. More than likely Google has a backdoor to decrypt messages; personally I think the FCC should determine the encryption standard; but then again, the Government would then have the backdoor. Perhaps the GSM Assoc should do it.

Still think more of the blame is with the cell carriers. Pretty much everything in the United States that has to do with online life's problems or hassles are either cell carrier or broadband provider's faults IMO.

 

[Darth Tulhu]

(I use only iPhone/iPad/Apple watch)
Would Android be allowed to install an app on an iPhone that showed iMessages, android messages (if there is such a thing?) and sms messages?
Would Apple allow the default messaging App to be replaced with an Android one?
Messaging is more like public infrastructure and Apple will vigorously defend against that and these are monopoly behaviours.

Apple is the arbritar of what it allows on its iPhone and iPad but not on its desktop OS.

Would Sony allow XBOX games to run on its platform? Would Microsoft or Nintendo do the same?

As much as everyone likes to think so, the iPhone is NOT a PC. It is a proprietary device.

And customers KNOW THIS going in.

If they don't want it, the have the CHOICE to not buy it. There are other smartphones that can do what the iPhone does, just not the way the iPhone does it.

Which runs counter to the concept of monopoly in my mind.

 

[spinedoc77]

WhatsApp you do not need to do anything with your contacts, you can give the app access to your current contact list, so I do not get this argument. The contact list in WhatsApp tells you if one of your contacts is using it.

My guess is over 90% of people on Android use WhatsApp.

Because I'd rather not use any Meta products or give them my information. Also to get full size pictures/videos and not have issues with group chat wouldn't the sender (and group chat recipients for that matter) still have to also download and use Whatsapp?

My guess is under 10% of people on Android in the US use WhatsApp.

 

[ender78]

Because I'd rather not use any Meta products or give them my information. Also to get full size pictures/videos and not have issues with group chat wouldn't the sender (and group chat recipients for that matter) still have to also download and use Whatsapp?

My guess is under 10% of people on Android in the US use WhatsApp.

Here are two links that suggest that the usage is much higher than you state.

WhatsApp User Statistics 2025: How Many People Use WhatsApp?

Important WhatsApp user stats. Includes data on usage, downloads and more.

backlinko.com

U.S. WhatsApp users 2019-2023| Statista

In 2019, **** million U.S.

www.statista.com

I would bet that WhatsApp is used by more Android users than iPhone users.

 

[spinedoc77]

Here are two links that suggest that the usage is much higher than you state.

WhatsApp User Statistics 2025: How Many People Use WhatsApp?

Important WhatsApp user stats. Includes data on usage, downloads and more.

backlinko.com

U.S. WhatsApp users 2019-2023| Statista

In 2019, **** million U.S.

www.statista.com

I would bet that WhatsApp is used by more Android users than iPhone users.

But isn't Android usage moot because of RCS? I can just RCS between my Android contacts. Whatsapp is just not a viable solution IMO, I'm not going to get all my contacts to switch over and use it when they mostly (virtually all as far as I can tell) all use iMessage. Even if by some miracle they did, personally I try to not use any Meta products/services.

 

[avkills]

Because I'd rather not use any Meta products or give them my information. Also to get full size pictures/videos and not have issues with group chat wouldn't the sender (and group chat recipients for that matter) still have to also download and use Whatsapp?

My guess is under 10% of people on Android in the US use WhatsApp.

I agree that using Meta products sucks; but since I have been traveling to other countries at least 2 times a year for last couple of years, it is the easiest thing to use abroad since almost everyone uses it.

I do not use it in the states, but it is a viable option. It is probably safer than Facebook Messenger. 🤣

 

[Realityck]

Some other perspectives to this DoJ case

216. United States v. Apple (Complaint)

March 21, 2024 the United States filed an antitrust complaint against Apple. The filing is a new approach to antitrust and hinges on mostly how Apple chose to design the iPhone from the very start.

hardcoresoftware.learningbyshipping.com

What the DOJ is trying to do is turn the iPhone into Android, which is exactly what the marketplace does not want. Just as the DOJ tried to remove a browser from Windows which was exactly what the marketplace did not need to happen.

The case is poorly written as a general rule. There are more basic factual errors than one would see in a senior college paper written the night before. The description of how the US v Microsoft case paved the way for iPod on Windows was entirely incorrect. The theory on why the Amazon Fire phone failed was laughable. These don’t really matter but serve to undermine the quality of the case presented. It is fascinating that after 75 pages of huffing and puffing, the actual complaints are so mundane and recycled when they clearly don’t apply.

In the end, this is clearly a political case. The DOJ set out in 2019 (!) in the before times to “go after Big Tech”. The DOJ is just like at a big company when you make something a performance review goal you’re going to get it, no matter what. The DOJ set out to bring cases against “Big Tech” so that’s what we got. Here we are with the case against Apple. It is weak and poorly framed and looks to me a lot like they could not figure out what to do with an obvious duopoly where the market is being incredibly well-served by two very different approaches, a lot of happy customers, and few loud and vocal companies complaining who already lost in court once.

 

[spinedoc77]

I agree that using Meta products sucks; but since I have been traveling to other countries at least 2 times a year for last couple of years, it is the easiest thing to use abroad since almost everyone uses it.

I do not use it in the states, but it is a viable option. It is probably safer than Facebook Messenger. 🤣

We can agree to disagree, and certainly this is individual and unique to every user, but for myself it's completely not viable.

 

[mikelets456]

So,
In the government’s telling, these actions reflect a concerted scheme to lock users into Apple’s “walled garden” -- and then charge them monopoly rents for the privilege. By restricting innovative middleware that could make the underlying smartphone hardware less important, the argument goes, Apple prevents the iPhone from becoming a mere commodity.
I guess the only competition for Android, is Apple----I guess Apple did give "the big guy" his cut.

 

[dk001]

no? my mom's Fitbit gets basic notifications from her iPhone SE

Fitbit? Okay. I was discussing the Galaxy Watch.
My wife uses a Fitbit but on Android. Lots of ”smartwatches” can access both iOS and Android usually via an app and get some functionality. What I would like to see is my AWU having some basic connection to any of my Android or iPad devices.

 

[dk001]

And can we blame them. More than likely Google has a backdoor to decrypt messages; personally I think the FCC should determine the encryption standard; but then again, the Government would then have the backdoor. Perhaps the GSM Assoc should do it.

Still think more of the blame is with the cell carriers. Pretty much everything in the United States that has to do with online life's problems or hassles are either cell carrier or broadband provider's faults IMO.

I think you are going a bit off the trail here especially when it comes to RCS.
Couple of things to keep in mind:
1. Apple had the opportunity to push iMessage as the default across all OS’s and decided to use it as an iOS lock-in
2. RCS became a mess when the carriers could not agree on pretty much anything.
3. Google stepped in and created an E2E encrypted version of RCS and got most carriers and countries to adopt.
4. Apple bowed to Chinese pressure and is putting in RCS support in iMessage. Apple is using the GSM default version which does not contain E2EE. Apple did during an interview say they are working with GSM to add E2EE to the standard.

As for a Google backdoor … many are looking at Google’s version with that in mind. To date one has not been found. Then again, you can say that about any big tech that implements E2EE - have they put in a back door. Time will tell.

 

[dk001]

But isn't Android usage moot because of RCS? I can just RCS between my Android contacts. Whatsapp is just not a viable solution IMO, I'm not going to get all my contacts to switch over and use it when they mostly (virtually all as far as I can tell) all use iMessage. Even if by some miracle they did, personally I try to not use any Meta products/services.

@avkills

For many of my sub-Asian and EU peers, we mostly end up on Telegram or Teams(work). I do find most overseas routinely use WhatsApp. RCS use in this segment has been rising but getting past the carrier driven cultural use of WhatsApp will take a while.

 

[dk001]

So,
In the government’s telling, these actions reflect a concerted scheme to lock users into Apple’s “walled garden” -- and then charge them monopoly rents for the privilege. By restricting innovative middleware that could make the underlying smartphone hardware less important, the argument goes, Apple prevents the iPhone from becoming a mere commodity.
I guess the only competition for Android, is Apple----I guess Apple did give "the big guy" his cut.

Best use case would be I can do what I need using the apps wanted/needed irrespective of the OS. Calls, messaging, email, etc. should not be constrained by the OS. Sadly that is far from the case.

 

[avkills]

I think you are going a bit off the trail here especially when it comes to RCS.
Couple of things to keep in mind:
1. Apple had the opportunity to push iMessage as the default across all OS’s and decided to use it as an iOS lock-in
2. RCS became a mess when the carriers could not agree on pretty much anything.
3. Google stepped in and created an E2E encrypted version of RCS and got most carriers and countries to adopt.
4. Apple bowed to Chinese pressure and is putting in RCS support in iMessage. Apple is using the GSM default version which does not contain E2EE. Apple did during an interview say they are working with GSM to add E2EE to the standard.

As for a Google backdoor … many are looking at Google’s version with that in mind. To date one has not been found. Then again, you can say that about any big tech that implements E2EE - have they put in a back door. Time will tell.

I don't understand point 1. iMessage works on every single Apple device that can do messaging. If you mean they had the opportunity to release messaging apps on Windows and/or Android why would or should they be compelled to do that? Those are competing "systems." And if they did do that, would it be plausible to assume that Apple would have close to 100% market share in the US for messaging apps?

Google, Samsung and numerous others have had ample time to do what Apple did by basically coming up with their own messaging protocol (not that it would be a good thing); but I imagine Apple's reasoning was based on dealings with the stupid carriers.

In other words, RCS was late to the party and the squabbling between the different carriers is ultimately what has allowed Apple to become the dominant messaging platform in the United States.

So Apple adds RCS support? Does that make the DOJ case dead in the water?

 

[Realityck]

So Apple adds RCS support? Does that make the DOJ case dead in the water?

I suspect Apple will not ignore their iMessage update to the end of 2024, just getting it done sooner spins Apple image more positively.

 

[BaldiMac]

Best use case would be I can do what I need using the apps wanted/needed irrespective of the OS. Calls, messaging, email, etc. should not be constrained by the OS. Sadly that is far from the case.

My best use case is apps that are driven forward by the hardware/OS that I choose and not limited by cross-platform homogeneity and legacy support. Sadly the EU and DOJ believe they should try their hands at software design.

 

[avkills]

So I just read something on Ars that said the EU is under the impression that Apple, Google and Meta are all non compliant to their new DMA law. If that were the case, would also all the game box manufacturers also be non compliant?

I think this is going to get real ugly real fast.

 

[dk001]

I don't understand point 1. iMessage works on every single Apple device that can do messaging. If you mean they had the opportunity to release messaging apps on Windows and/or Android why would or should they be compelled to do that? Those are competing "systems." And if they did do that, would it be plausible to assume that Apple would have close to 100% market share in the US for messaging apps?

Google, Samsung and numerous others have had ample time to do what Apple did by basically coming up with their own messaging protocol (not that it would be a good thing); but I imagine Apple's reasoning was based on dealings with the stupid carriers.

In other words, RCS was late to the party and the squabbling between the different carriers is ultimately what has allowed Apple to become the dominant messaging platform in the United States.

So Apple adds RCS support? Does that make the DOJ case dead in the water?

Apple had the opportunity to make iMessage the default across the mobile world - iOS and Android. Apple would not have held 100% market share rather they would have been the directing “force” on the evolution of messaging. Apple elected not to do that. So now we are looking at RCS.

As for others coming up with a solution, they finally did, mostly - RCS. Apple’s reasoning to stay out of this “mess” was to close hold iMessage and lock in users.

IMessage is not the dominate per se, rather it deliberately degrades or prohibits (forced to SMS/MMS) any other messaging platform. It also interferes with messaging when intersecting other platforms.

No. It is a small step in the right direction as the DOJ case includes much more.

 

[dk001]

My best use case is apps that are driven forward by the hardware/OS that I choose and not limited by cross-platform homogeneity and legacy support. Sadly the EU and DOJ believe they should try their hands at software design.

Not what I meant but yes, I do agree. For me, to accomplish a project, task or tasks, the OS should be immaterial.

 

[dk001]

So I just read something on Ars that said the EU is under the impression that Apple, Google and Meta are all non compliant to their new DMA law. If that were the case, would also all the game box manufacturers also be non compliant?

I think this is going to get real ugly real fast.

Game box manufacturers do not currently fall under the EU’s gatekeeper definition.

 

[visualseed]

Free. I’d rather they just added RCS and help establish a base encryption standard.

You do realize that even if/when they add RCS support, it's still going to fall back on SMS/MMS as that is still the universal/lowest common denominator standard that all carriers support? Even if they work with Google to establish better encryption and multimedia features for RCS, not all carriers that support RCS will support those features.