Apple Sued Over Meltdown and Spectre in U.S. as iPhone Slowdown Lawsuits Now Total 45

[I7guy]

I hope so. The karma is real.

The outcome may not be what you are expecting. Are you prepared?
[doublepost=1516105600][/doublepost]

Imagine if your vehicle was updated with this “feature”. Now it wont stall, but it drives a lot slower. That’s right, a brand new feature you didn’t ask for. And you weren’t even told about it.
You’re welcome.
-Apple

Probably better to sign it Tesla, but the analogy doesn’t quite fit as a working “slower” phone is better than a dead “faster” phone.
[doublepost=1516105664][/doublepost]

Why do you care?
[doublepost=1516093714][/doublepost]
For those people. For others not so much.

Isn’t this relating to meltdown and specter?

 

[Phonephreak]

Isn’t this relating to meltdown and specter?

Your correct. But the topic is all over the place as usual.

 

[Sefstah]

See this is why I said read the articles and understand the issue rather than just reading the headline...


The throttling issue was the battery degradation issue which resulted in throttling. The CPU's clockspeed was throttled. This is Apple's fault and responsibility.

Spectre and Meltdown fixes alter the way the CPU processes data, resulting in a slowdown. The CPU's clockspeed is not throttled. This is Intel's fault and responsibility.

See this is why I said read the articles and understand the issue rather than just reading the headline...


The throttling issue was the battery degradation issue which resulted in throttling. The CPU's clockspeed was throttled. This is Apple's fault and responsibility.

Spectre and Meltdown fixes alter the way the CPU processes data, resulting in a slowdown. The CPU's clockspeed is not throttled. This is Intel's fault and responsibility.

Apple addressed Meltdown in iOS 11.2 and Spectre in iOS 11.22. Both were released last week.
The slowdown lawsuit began when the power management feature was added in iOS 10.2.1 (This is what I’m referring to) back in January 2017.
Do you not understand that this article has two separate topics?
Here are some facts for you since you have failed to provide any:

Apple addressed Meltdown in macOS High Sierra 10.13.2 and iOS 11.2, while Spectre mitigations were introduced in a macOS 10.13.2 supplemental update and iOS 11.2.2, both of which were released early last week. The vulnerabilities have also been addressed in older versions of macOS and OS X.


iPhone Slowdown Lawsuits Continue to Mount


Apple continues to face an increasing number of lawsuits that either accuse the company of intentionally slowing down older iPhones, or at least of failing to disclose power management changes it made starting in iOS 10.2.1.

 

[clystron]

I did somewhat agree with the new power management code initially BUT after more thought and remembering back, the older phones before the 6 never had such issues. The device would run down toward 1% then shut off (not 30-40%) as starting with the 6.

My 5s would do exactly that, shut off somewhere between 30-50% under certain cirumstances or have massive drops in charge. The battery had over 1000 cycles on it and was worn out, new battery fixed that.

I think the problem with the newer phones is that peak power draw if the CPU/GPU is doing stuff increased quite a bit even though average power did not change that much. Combine that with relatively small batteries and you might get problems down the road because the powersupply does not have as much headroom as it used to have.

 

[Sefstah]

The outcome may not be what you are expecting. Are you prepared?
[doublepost=1516105600][/doublepost]
Probably better to sign it Tesla, but the analogy doesn’t quite fit as a working “slower” phone is better than a dead “faster” phone.
[doublepost=1516105664][/doublepost]
Isn’t this relating to meltdown and specter?

Apple should have had Tesla design it’s batteries. Problem solved!

 

[cjbryce]

FFS! Shakespeare had it right, "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers"

As a Brit, it does seem to me that our escalation response is usually

1. "Oh, well, they're doing their best"
2. "I'll have a nice cup of tea and think about something else"
   
3. "Mmm, maybe someone should prod them into action"
4. "I'll have a nice cup of tea and think about something else"
5. "Ok, I'll write strongly worded letter"
6. "I'll have a nice cup of tea and think about something else"
   
7. "Oh, I give up - I'll have my lawyer write a strongly worded letter"
8. "I'll have a nice cup of tea and think about something else"
   
9. "Really, is this worth going to court over?"
10. "I'll have a nice cup of tea and think about something else"
    
11. "Oh, alright, if I absolutely must"
12. "That tea was nice"

Whereas from an outsiders pov the US response seems to be more usually along the lines of

1. "Let's sue the ****ers"
2. "Let's shoot the ****ers"
3. "Let's nuke the ****ers"

Calm down chaps, there's no real harm in a smartphone being a little, imperceptible, tiny bit slower than it might be. Most people can't type/swipe/think that fast anyway.

 

[Blu-ray1972]

So Apple wasn't supposed to use processors?

As for the battery and slowing down of older phones I see this as a non issue. From what I've read and understand about this it was only done for those phones which had batteries which were having issues to help extend the life of the battery. I don't see how this is a bad thing?

I mean, either slow down the processing which drains the battery more slowly and wears the already degraded battery down less. OR The user has a phone which the battery is dying much more quickly because of the battery and it degrades much more quickly. The second the user would be looking at getting the battery replaced sooner or replacing the phone anyway because they'll be like "I have no battery life anymore I need a new phone!" The former, the user can go longer without replacing the battery, yes things are going slower but you can go longer on that phone call than you did before, text more, etc.

 

[Phonephreak]

FFS! Shakespeare had it right, "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers"

As a Brit, it does seem to me that our escalation response is usually

1. "Oh, well, they're doing their best"
2. "I'll have a nice cup of tea and think about something else"
   
3. "Mmm, maybe someone should prod them into action"
4. "I'll have a nice cup of tea and think about something else"
5. "Ok, I'll write strongly worded letter"
6. "I'll have a nice cup of tea and think about something else"
   
7. "Oh, I give up - I'll have my lawyer write a strongly worded letter"
8. "I'll have a nice cup of tea and think about something else"
   
9. "Really, is this worth going to court over?"
10. "I'll have a nice cup of tea and think about something else"
    
11. "Oh, alright, if I absolutely must"
12. "That tea was nice"

Whereas from an outsiders pov the US response seems to be more usually along the lines of

1. "Let's sue the ****ers"
2. "Let's shoot the ****ers"
3. "Let's nuke the ****ers"

Calm down chaps, there's no real harm in a smartphone being a little, imperceptible, tiny bit slower than it might be. Most people can't type/swipe/think that fast anyway.

That’s fine that your ok having something taken from you that you paid for. Many people are not.

 

[Maxx Power]

I powered up an old iPad Mini Retina (A7 processor and slower than an iPhone 6 with the A8) and ran some tests.

Unfortunately the browser benchmarks were useless. ARES-6 wouldn’t even run (this iPad was still on iOS 9) and after updating to iOS 11 they were actually faster (Safari is obviously optimized and quicker now than it was back on iOS 9). So all I’m left with is Geekbench.

My scores are pretty much the same before and after updating to iOS 11 with the Meltdown/Spectre fixes. They are also inline with what Geekbench shows in their results browser.

Bottom line: I need to go buy a PowerBall lottery ticket. Every device I’ve tested has performed as good as new, without any throttling or other issues. Considering this so-called epidemic is affecting just about everyone and their dog, I must be the luckiest guy on the planet to have a slew of iOS devices all working perfectly. /S

That is good news. I have yet to run geekbench tests on my iPad because I use an app that will not work under iOS11. If others can chip in with iPhone 6 data, we can get a better picture on this issue.

 

[Phonephreak]

So Apple wasn't supposed to use processors?

As for the battery and slowing down of older phones I see this as a non issue. From what I've read and understand about this it was only done for those phones which had batteries which were having issues to help extend the life of the battery. I don't see how this is a bad thing?

I mean, either slow down the processing which drains the battery more slowly and wears the already degraded battery down less. OR The user has a phone which the battery is dying much more quickly because of the battery and it degrades much more quickly. The second the user would be looking at getting the battery replaced sooner or replacing the phone anyway because they'll be like "I have no battery life anymore I need a new phone!" The former, the user can go longer without replacing the battery, yes things are going slower but you can go longer on that phone call than you did before, text more, etc.

What your saying is correct. The problem is Apple wasn’t telling customers a new battery would fix the problem. Then when the customer wanted to buy a new battery Apple wouldn’t sell them one. Claiming the defective battery was good.

 

[cjbryce]

That’s fine that your ok having something taken from you that you paid for. Many people are not.

I was at least partially joking, however some people appear to have no sense of perspective and will sue/class action bandwagon jump as soon as a willing lawyer comes along.

Perhaps there's simply a glut of willing lawyers in the US as compared to elsewhere?

 

[I7guy]

Apple should have had Tesla design it’s batteries. Problem solved!

Are Tesla’s lithium ion batteries immune to the laws of physics? Or are they just so big, and over time the effective mileage and acceleration drop off with age?

 

[Sincci]

I think it's worth to point out that not all ARM processors are affected with all Meltdown/Spectre variants, but all ARM processors designed by Apple are (which means that Apple should be held as responsible as Intel for designing flawed processors).

 

[AndyMacAndMic]

So Apple wasn't supposed to use processors?

As for the battery and slowing down of older phones I see this as a non issue. From what I've read and understand about this it was only done for those phones which had batteries which were having issues to help extend the life of the battery. I don't see how this is a bad thing?

I mean, either slow down the processing which drains the battery more slowly and wears the already degraded battery down less. OR The user has a phone which the battery is dying much more quickly because of the battery and it degrades much more quickly. The second the user would be looking at getting the battery replaced sooner or replacing the phone anyway because they'll be like "I have no battery life anymore I need a new phone!" The former, the user can go longer without replacing the battery, yes things are going slower but you can go longer on that phone call than you did before, text more, etc.

About the slowing down:
The problem is not the battery degrading. Everyone understands that batteries degrade. The problem people are complaining about is that Apple implemented the throttling software without informing anyone, effectively hiding the battery issue. If Apple would have been open about this, people could have made an informed decision about a)replacing the battery or b) replacing their phone.
Your argument makes complete sense, except for the fact that people never had that choice.
[doublepost=1516108509][/doublepost]

Are Tesla’s lithium ion batteries immune to the laws of physics? Or are they just so big, and over time the effective mileage and acceleration drop off with age?

Nobody denies that batteries degrade over time. You know that is not the issue.

 

[Sefstah]

Are Tesla’s lithium ion batteries immune to the laws of physics? Or are they just so big, and over time the effective mileage and acceleration drop off with age?

So obviously you believe it’s not Apples fault right? Like they couldn’t have used a larger capacity battery? Yes every battery dies, but that was never a problem before. Now they’re back peddling and trying to make things right because they got caught.

 

[Act3]

The batterygate lawsuits and the Meltdown/Spectre lawsuits should go nowhere. Apple made no promises regarding CPU speed upon purchase or continuing after purchase. Provided that the speed reduction was the result of security patches and/or continued reliability of the core iPhone functions (telephone, text, send/receive email, web browsing, etc.), their iOS patches were justified and the right thing to do. Only if the plaintiffs can prove that Apple’s purpose was to cripple the iPhone to encourage upgrading to newer devices, should the plaintiffs prevail.

They advertised faster speed than the previous generation chip. A design that required fixing after being sold that was not communicated to the user is probably subject to lawsuits, as it is their responsibility to test before releasing to general public. No where did they mention that they would add code to iOS nearly a year after the iPhone 6s was released that would slow down the processor. They also were not clear to the customer that they added that changed until they were caught.

https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2015/09/09Apple-Introduces-iPhone-6s-iPhone-6s-Plus/

A9, Apple’s third-generation 64-bit chip powers these innovations with 70 percent faster CPU and 90 percent faster GPU performance than the A8, all with gains in energy efficiency for great battery life.

 

[Act3]

Can’t speak for everyone but I have a 7 plus bought on launch day which was used every day until iPhone X came out and still reports 99.2% of design capacity at 232 cycles and still delivers full Geekbench scores.

Apple do sell AppleCare if you want 2 year coverage and do offer 1st party battery replacement, now at below cost price and yet you still complain? Maybe you could divert your angst into creating the perfect battery technology.

you really think that is accurate? 232 cycles and only used 0.8% of your battery capacity?

 

[pincud]

I believe all these lawsuits are good and welcome for the customer. I am also surprised to see Apple fans who do not appreciate these things. For this company to provide better products without touching those products after they become the customers' property, these lawsuits are necessary. We are hoping that Apple has intelligent fans, but it turns out this is not the case.

 

[I7guy]

So obviously you believe it’s not Apples fault right? Like they couldn’t have used a larger capacity battery? Yes every battery dies, but that was never a problem before. Now they’re back peddling and trying to make things right because they got caught.

My belief is not germane to what the courts will find. Sure they could have used a bigger battery, but maybe that’s not what the market research showed people wanted.

 

[CarlJ]

Because Apple wilfully and deliberately used processors in their devices.

Discrete TTL FTW!

 

[PG(Austin)]

So how is any of this Apple's fault?

It's not, Apple just has more money. The ambulance chasers have now added chasing Apple to their list.

 

[Abazigal]

So obviously you believe it’s not Apples fault right? Like they couldn’t have used a larger capacity battery? Yes every battery dies, but that was never a problem before. Now they’re back peddling and trying to make things right because they got caught.

Sure, all other things equal, a larger battery might mitigate the issue, but where do you draw the line? 3000mah? 4000mah? 10000mah? Even larger batteries don't negate the issue; they simply make it less apparent because they degrade less quickly.
[doublepost=1516110272][/doublepost]

I believe all these lawsuits are good and welcome for the customer. I am also surprised to see Apple fans who do not appreciate these things. For this company to provide better products without touching those products after they become the customers' property, these lawsuits are necessary. We are hoping that Apple has intelligent fans, but it turns out this is not the case.

Just because I might potentially stand to get some benefit out of this doesn't necessarily mean I have to like the process.

I agree that Apple could have handled the issue better in hindsight, but I also believe that Apple genuinely did what they felt was best at the time. I don't think the lawsuits really have any merit, and I doubt they will have any lasting impact on Apple's reputation.

 

[gnipgnop]

You car will accelerate faster as the fuel tank gets emptier car analogies don't work with iPhones.

Sure they do. Car companies advertise a "highway" MPG, correct? Does that MPG apply regardless of speed? No. You're going to generally get lower MPG once you go above 55 mph on the highway...but they don't advertise that part. Is that considered misleading to customers? No. The advertised highway MPG on a car is an estimate, similar to the advertised speed gains for new SoCs in mobile phones. Just as there isn't really a constant MPG in a car regardless of use or conditions, there is no constant CPU or GPU speed in a mobile phone regardless of use or conditions.

 

[Supermacguy]

How are they going to prove the slowdown hurts them more than complete phone shutoffs? The ONLY real need is for your phone to be able to call 911. As long as it does that, you've got no reason to complain.

 

[Stella]

Sueing due to deliberate slow downs, I understand, but Spectre and Meltdown? No.

Lawsuits involving Spectre and Meltdown won't go anywhere.