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Act3

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Then poof goes a court case regarding a given iPhone not matching its nonexistent advertised clock speed. Keep in mind that using relative measurements like they do actually shields them from exactly this type of lawsuit (perhaps unwittingly).

If you are happy buying stuff and not getting what they advertise, then enjoy it because you don't care. No one is suing them for not meeting a specific specified clock speed but I bet a court can make them disclose what the number is supposed to be.

What part don't you get about the phone being slower clock speed than it is brand new due to apple's throttling ? Has nothing to do with a quoted clock rate.

Apple_September_2017_iPhone_X_keynote_-2017-09-12-at-11.00.37-AM-780x439.jpg
 
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jav6454

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If you are happy buying stuff and not getting what they advertise, then enjoy it because you don't care. No one is suing them for not meeting a specific clock speed but I bet a court can make them disclose what the number is supposed to be.

Apple_September_2017_iPhone_X_keynote_-2017-09-12-at-11.00.37-AM-780x439.jpg

While this is true, you have too look specifically at the hardware bugs. If Apple modified anything near or at those bugs location, then they might be liable. If they took those areas as is and built other areas to obtain performance, then they might not.
 

Act3

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While this is true, you have too look specifically at the hardware bugs. If Apple modified anything near or at those bugs location, then they might be liable. If they took those areas as is and built other areas to obtain performance, then they might not.

I'm more concerned with the battery throttling, 11.2.2 did not slow my 6s (new battery)
 

TiggrToo

macrumors 601
Aug 24, 2017
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OK, so here's one on the ye for all those delluded folks who think that they stand a chance at a payday from Apple over all this (Meltdown, Spectre and the whole idiotic battery issue).

Thomas Davidson, et al. v. Apple Inc.

If that doesn't ring any bells, let's try something else that might

Bendgate

Yup - I bet most of ya had forgotten about that little debacle, right? Well, the courts hadn't because it's still being fought over, but nothing like the way it started.

The kicker for all the folks screaming for Apple's blood (aka their cash) was when Judge Lucy Kohl dismissed the original lawsuit because plaintiffs failed to establish how Apple had misled consumers. Remember folks, this was over a demonstrable HARDWARE issue. In addition she noted that the plaintiffs claims were way to broad to be acceptable.

When the class action lawsuits were kicked off, Apple stood accused of fraud, breach of implied warranty, negligent misrepresentation, and unjust enrichment. Claimants also alleged that Apple violated various state consumer protection laws as well (sounding familiar anyone?).

Before long the claims got trimmed to fraud, breach of warranty and claims under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.

In dismissing the initial class action, the judge pointed out that the plaintiffs had never said they relied on any statements from Apple advertising the durability of the iPhone 6 and 6 Plus, even though such claims were made by Apple.

In addition, she dismissed the plaintiffs’ claims that Apple misrepresented the characteristics of the iPhone, finding that Apple’s claims were “mere puffery” that could not be construed as true or false. She also dismissed fraud claims that were brought under New Jersey and Pennsylvania law. Not only that, she further dismissed warranty claims, finding that Apple’s one-year limited warranty did not cover the alleged touchscreen defect because they were related to a design defect (Meltdown\Spectre\Battery issues, anyone?) rather than an issue with workmanship or materials, which the warranty allegedly would have covered. She determined the plaintiffs failed to show that Apple’s one-year warranty is unconscionable.

As a result the class action lawsuit was dramatically changed. The members now ONLY included those who had initially agreed to be part of Apple's Multi-Touch Repair Program, which Apple offered for $149.

In addition, the current case also has been further refined to identify if Apple failed to tell users in a single tight 14 day return window that the identified phones with known hardware issues could be returned free of charge.

Now, bear in mind, BendGate revolved around REFURBISHED iPhones becoming totally unusable due to the solder breaking. Proof of injury is easy to see - examine the phone - if it shows weakened solder joints, and the owner elected to join the repair program - congratulations, you're still in the class action lawsuit.

Everyone else - tough luck, thank you for playing.

Now, given that the injury on Bendgate was easy to show - and having seen the precedent set in that lawsuits, I'm fascinated to know who all the anti-Apple groupies screaming for lawsuits think that a case that revolves around base architectural chip design and anecdotal claims of 'slowdowns' will proceed, triply so given Apple have offered to "make whole" plus some with the current $29 battery offer (for the battery issues) and how damned near impossible 'harm' is going to be proven when it comes to Meltdown and Spectre.
 

jonblatho

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Jan 20, 2014
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What part don't you get about the phone being slower clock speed than it is brand new? Has nothing to do with a quoted clock rate.
Under tort law it has everything to do with a quoted clock speed. Nothing provided in the image in your post is false or misleading; since these numbers are relative to previous generations of their chips which are still affected, the A11 Bionic chip quite likely still provides the same level of performance over its predecessor.

Again: relativity.

I should also point out that artificially decreasing a processor’s maximum clock speed as the product ages (in this case, as battery health declines) is not much different from other products becoming less useful over time. (Think outside consumer electronics here.)
 
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Act3

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Neither did I. I see you’d rather just keep deflecting than actually list harm to users because of Meltdown/Spectre. Without harm there can be no payout.

all depends what you consider harm, having a consumer spend money on a device that may need a hardware change in future to fully mitigate may be considered deception since it wasn't disclosed to them even though the manufacture knew of the issue. Sceptre may need a hardware change to fix completely yet here we are with devices still being sold, with no mention to the unknowing person buying it.
 

TiggrToo

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Aug 24, 2017
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never said that there was any physical harm

Harm in the legal sense means loss of any sort - it doesn't have to be physical. In this case the claim is that users were harmed because they claim their phones no longer run as fast as they used to.

And now, a tangent:

Which again leads me to my ongoing rant over folk who are comparing cars to iPhones. Well, for all y'all - how's about this: An older care will not have the same pickup or top speed as a newer one. Yeah, I know that doesn't fit in with y'alls whining, but there it is. Oh wait, hear it now - "a one year old car will run just as fast as a new car" - yeah - back at ya - cars have a significantly longer shelf life. These days a 20 year old car can be seen to be at staring the end of it's average useful life, much like a 3 year old phone is. So, now, pray tell, how many cars run just as good as new over 9 years of daily usage? Even a three year old vehicle starts showing it's age and needs more maintenance to keep it in tiptop fashion.

And that's all I'm gonna say about cars because it's a terrible analogy ANY which way you paint it.
 

Act3

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Under tort law it has everything to do with a quoted clock speed. Nothing provided in the image in your post is false or misleading; since these numbers are relative to previous generations of their chips which are still affected, the A11 Bionic chip quite likely still provides the same level of performance over its predecessor.

Again: relativity.

I should also point out that artificially decreasing a processor’s maximum clock speed as the product ages (in this case, as battery health declines) is not much different from other products becoming less useful over time. (Think outside consumer electronics here.)

yea but not letting a consumer know that they can restore to "as new" speed on their device by replacing the battery is perfectly fine? Sounds like deception to me and is what these lawsuits are about. Go ahead and defend the almost trillion dollar company as they stick it to the consumer.
 
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jonblatho

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yea but not letting a consumer know that they can restore to "as new" speed on their device by replacing the battery is perfectly fine? Sounds like deception to me and is what these lawsuits are about. Go ahead and defend the almost trillion dollar company as they stick it to the consumer.
I haven’t addressed their lack of communication, and I’m not defending it, though I will say that it’s highly unlikely that a court would find Apple to have any legal duty to disclose that information to the user.

Again, one would have to prove that a large class of iPhone users bought new iPhones explicitly because of this rather than just seeking to upgrade, and that otherwise they’d have kept their existing phone, which would have created financial harm. Given the usual age of a phone when this throttling sets in (often two years or more), this would be exceptionally difficult to prove in court.

There’s a difference between defending a company and providing a realistic analysis of these lawsuits’ chances (as I’ve explained: not great) of succeeding—and providing some of Apple’s likely arguments in court should any of these even get that far—based on very simple legal knowledge. You’re welcome to keep deflecting and moving goalposts, though.
 

Act3

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I haven’t addressed their lack of communication, and I’m not defending it, though I will say that it’s highly unlikely that a court would find Apple to have any legal duty to disclose that information to the user.

Again, one would have to prove that a large class of iPhone users bought new iPhones explicitly because of this rather than just seeking to upgrade, and that otherwise they’d have kept their existing phone, which would have created financial harm. Given the usual age of a phone when this throttling sets in (often two years or more), this would be exceptionally difficult to prove in court.

There’s a difference between defending a company and providing a realistic analysis of these lawsuits’ chances (as I’ve explained: not great) of succeeding—and providing some of Apple’s likely arguments in court should any of these even get that far—based on very simple legal knowledge. You’re welcome to keep deflecting and moving goalposts, though.

How do you conclude that?

thanks for jumping in here with your very simple legal knowledge. I'm sure there are 45 licensed lawyers out there that think they have a case and we will see what becomes of it.
 
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jonblatho

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nope thanks for jumping in here with you simple legal knowledge. I'm sure there are 45 licensed lawyers out there that think they have a case and we will see what becomes of it.
Do you not know how often class-action trial lawyers hop into a case not even thinking that they have a case but rather just doing it for a paycheck and publicity?

The answer is a lot. They do cases like this because they get paid regardless of the result of the case. They often don’t care in the slightest whether they have a snowball’s chance at winning.

This stuff is pretty well covered in an introductory business law class. I took one so that I’d be able to route my own company around lawsuits like this without having to constantly consult with a lawyer on every move we make.
 
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deferredAnon

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Dec 25, 2017
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You do not need to establish advertised clock speed, but only that it was decreased from the default CPU speed that came with the phone, and one can show this with numbers and percentages, or by using the phone's functions. The decrease is on purpose through Apple's throttling. Degradation of battery does not naturally cause this. Finally, clock speed can be measured.

Advertisement:

Apple states that A8 used in iPhone 6 has 25% more CPU performance and 50% more graphics performance while drawing only 50% of the power of its predecessor, the Apple A7.

So people expect it to maintain that threshold, at least when compared to A7. Any questions?
 
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jonblatho

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Jan 20, 2014
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You do not need to establish advertised clock speed, but only that it was decreased from the default CPU speed that came with the phone, and one can show this with numbers and percentages, or by using the phone's functions. The decrease is on purpose through Apple's throttling. Degradation of battery does not naturally cause this. Finally, clock speed can be measured.

Advertisement:

Apple states that A8 used in iPhone 6 has 25% more CPU performance and 50% more graphics performance while drawing only 50% of the power of its predecessor, the Apple A7.

So people expect it to maintain that threshold, at least when compared to A7.
I’ve already addressed every point here, and: Nope.
 

TiggrToo

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Aug 24, 2017
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You do not need to establish advertised clock speed, but only that it was decreased from the default CPU speed that came with the phone, and one can show this with numbers and percentages, or by using the phone's functions. The decrease is on purpose through Apple's throttling. Degradation of battery does not naturally cause this. Finally, clock speed can be measured.

Advertisement:

Apple states that A8 used in iPhone 6 has 25% more CPU performance and 50% more graphics performance while drawing only 50% of the power of its predecessor, the Apple A7.

So people expect it to maintain that threshold, at least when compared to A7. Any questions?

Prove it.

By that I mean show us all verifiable independent reproducible tests that demonstrate how everyday users are affected to the point that their out of warranty devices have been severely damaged to warrent financial relief.

Sounds hard? Well, tough, because that's what's going to be required to get anywhere.

And, as I've already shown above, precedent had been set in the Bendgate class action lawsuit that gives Apple all manner of outs.
 

Act3

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Prove it.

By that I mean show us all verifiable independent reproducible tests that demonstrate how everyday users are affected to the point that their out of warranty devices have been severely damaged to warrent financial relief.

Sounds hard? Well, tough, because that's what's going to be required to get anywhere.

And, as I've already shown above, precedent had been set in the Bendgate class action lawsuit that gives Apple all manner of outs.

quite honestly I don't want a dime back from apple, I just want transparency and honesty from here on out. I really like my apple products and don't want to jump ship. But I also don't want to be taken advantage just so they can get even more richer.
 

TiggrToo

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Aug 24, 2017
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quite honestly I don't want a dime back from apple, I just want transparency and honesty from here on out. I really like my apple products and don't want to jump ship. But I also don't want to be taken advantage just so they can get even more richer.

And more transparency's something I think we can all agree on. Apple absolutely dropped the ball on this one. Unsure who, which, when, where or why viz-a-viz the corporate hierarchy that the decisions were made to keep schtum, but they were bad decisions. Awfully bad decisions.

Whoever thought that they'd get better press by saying nowt was an abject loony - it's been shown before customers like transparency, and hiding this has cost them a lot of bad press and loss of goodwill.

I think we all hope that Apple learn some very valuable lessons from this and become more open.

However, as I've stated before, if we could sue because of bad PR decisions, then every single corporation would be perpetually in the dock.
 

deferredAnon

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Dec 25, 2017
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Prove it.

By that I mean show us all verifiable independent reproducible tests that demonstrate how everyday users are affected to the point that their out of warranty devices have been severely damaged to warrent financial relief.

Sounds hard? Well, tough, because that's what's going to be required to get anywhere.

And, as I've already shown above, precedent had been set in the Bendgate class action lawsuit that gives Apple all manner of outs.
Very easy to prove. Throttled iPhone 6 using an A8 does not have '25% more CPU performance' than an A7.

One cannot BS with numbers. Apple should have said something along the lines of 'A8 provides remarkable performance over A7'. Take notes, Apple.
 
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Act3

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And more transparency's something I think we can all agree on. Apple absolutely dropped the ball on this one. Unsure who, which, when, where or why viz-a-viz the corporate hierarchy that the decisions were made to keep schtum, but they were bad decisions. Awfully bad decisions.

Whoever thought that they'd get better press by saying nowt was an abject loony - it's been shown before customers like transparency, and hiding this has cost them a lot of bad press and loss of goodwill.

I think we all hope that Apple learn some very valuable lessons from this and become more open.

However, as I've stated before, if we could sue because of bad PR decisions, then every single corporation would be perpetually in the dock.

unfortunately some corporations have to learn the hard way
 
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TiggrToo

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How do you conclude that?

thanks for jumping in here with your very simple legal knowledge. I'm sure there are 45 licensed lawyers out there that think they have a case and we will see what becomes of it.

In 2007, ex-Administrative Law Judge Roy L. Pearson, Jr. attempted to sue a dry cleaners for $67 MILLION over the loss of one pair of pants. The man was so monumentally greedy he even refused offers of a $12K settlement.

Naturally the whole thing was thrown out of court, but not before court proceedings took place. And even after he lost he still took it all the way to SCOTUS (then gave up at the last second).

So yeah, you'll forgive for having a chuckle at your post and the assumption lawyers were in this because they feel a real harm to the consumer has been made that they feel they need to represent because - well, gosh your Honor, they're angels of mercy....
 

Act3

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Very easy to prove. Throttled iPhone 6 using an A8 does not have '25% more CPU performance' than an A7.

One cannot BS with numbers. Apple should have same something along the lines of 'A8 provides remarkable performance over A7'. Take notes, Apple.

maybe you can with the newer way they teach math, who knows
 
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