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Apple Sued Over Online Apple Store Receipts
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He's not missing the point. And, again, Apple is printing the information to the screen. You can't control what shows up on that receipt until after it's already been transmitted and displayed, which is after the damage has already been done. What if somebody walks into the room and sees the number before you can hide the window? Even if you close your browser, are you expected not to make a PDF first? People need to keep records of their transactions, and that happens with online transactions by printing the receipt to a PDF or a printer.
The only way Apple might be absolved is if your browser had a "Don't show my credit card number" option, but that is ludicrous.
Another update to the story
Okay... so I got a lesson in lawsuits today. Thanks for the discussion guys. I am tending to agree with nickelcokes at this point. The lawsuit appears to be seeking damages, but not ACTUAL damages. That leaves other types of damages, including punitive, statutory, etc.
Okay... so I got a lesson in lawsuits today. Thanks for the discussion guys. I am tending to agree with nickelcokes at this point. The lawsuit appears to be seeking damages, but not ACTUAL damages. That leaves other types of damages, including punitive, statutory, etc.
Yep
Well - I guess the people who tried sorting this out have used the law as a last resort - certainly in my dealings with non-store personnel Apple are either arrogant in the extreme or ignore you - times I have written to head office I have never even received the courtesy of a reply.
Well - I guess the people who tried sorting this out have used the law as a last resort - certainly in my dealings with non-store personnel Apple are either arrogant in the extreme or ignore you - times I have written to head office I have never even received the courtesy of a reply.
not the case with my orders
i placed over a dozen orders from apple online and at least half of that in the store (with an emailed receipt) and not once did they show my credit card number or expiration date - and this is going back as far as 2002. My billing and shipping address was displayed for the online orders but that's the same way most online retailers do it. This may be an isolated incident although I'd be shocked if Apple had separate systems in each of their stores or multiple online systems.
i placed over a dozen orders from apple online and at least half of that in the store (with an emailed receipt) and not once did they show my credit card number or expiration date - and this is going back as far as 2002. My billing and shipping address was displayed for the online orders but that's the same way most online retailers do it. This may be an isolated incident although I'd be shocked if Apple had separate systems in each of their stores or multiple online systems.
As soon as you type in your credit info it is "printed to the screen". How do you put it in without typing it to the screen? Should it be like the ***** on passwords? This is the same situation for every online retailer. So who wants to get in on suing Amazon. Anyone want a piece of Bestbuy? Newegg? We could all be rich.
This is also technically not a receipt since the actual receipt is what is emailed to you. It's a final confirmation page. How else do you check that your address is correct? I suppose each piece of info could be confirmed on it's own page. That's not very user friendly but may be more secure...
This is a frivolous lawsuit. Apple doesn't print these receipts. Apple displays a webpage, containing information that you entered just ten seconds earlier, and tells you that you can print this webpage and keep it for your records if you choose to do so. If you don't want them printed, there is a very simple solution: Don't print them!
When you enter your credit card information, you are CHOOSING to enter it. You have no control of Apple's display of that information when they CHOOSE to show it back to you. And you don't know what they are choosing to do until they've already done it, and showed you the page. That is what this is about. And telling people not to keep records of their transactions is like telling them not to shop online with Apple. Your suggestion avoids the issue, but it doesn't correct it. The law is about correcting the problem.
Hi
Go U.S.! Oh wait...That's not right.
This is my question. While you can and should blame plenty on the lawyers, why aren't judges laughing and telling those from these cases to stop with the meth.
Go U.S.! Oh wait...That's not right.
I just said this in my previous post. When you type it, you are CHOOSING to do so. It is YOU that is printing the information, not Apple. And you aren't a "person accepting credit cards" according to the law. However, when Apple spits it back at you, you have no control of the display until it is too late.
Even if Apple sends you a separate email, this is still a receipt. The confirmation page documents Apple's RECEIPT of your order. It also documents Apple's RECEIPT of transaction from your credit card company.
yeah i just checked all my receipts (including ones from this year) and can't find any that give more than 4 digits, if that. the most recent ones don't list anything CC in the emails, and 4 digits on the website.
as for the evidence, it's the last page in the online order form. it's not a receipt.
1. Apple doesn't print on the screen. With current technology, you can't print on screens. That's what printers are there for. So Apple doesn't print.
2. The relevant law says "You shall not print". It doesn't say "you shall not display on any monitor". It doesn't say "You shall not make it possible for a customer to create a PDF file or to print the screen contents". Since the lawmakers are reasonably intelligent and know about computer displays and the like, they would have added these things to the law if that had been the intent.
And what if someone walks into the room? Well, what if he doesn't read the number from the screen, but knocks you over the head and takes your credit card away? This is seriously grasping at straws. How would anyone get into the room? My home has a front door that is locked. If you get in without my permission you are trespassing. Are you afraid your kids or your wife could steal your credit card number? In that case, Apple displaying the number on a screen is the smallest of your problems.
This is also about displaying your name and address, and I am quite sure that anyone who could walk in while I order from the Apple Store is either a burglar or knows my name, and they know my address anyway because they are at my house. (To quote Homer Simpson: Dooh! )
Hi
I'm curious now anyway so I'll check my receipts this weekend as I only print out the final confirmation page and not the email.
So... If someone is good enough to grab that page during transmission to your computer or if you're that stupid to lose the receipt that's already in your home -- printing it out -- to someone outside of your home, this isn't really going to matter as a criminal is going to get that information despite.
I'm curious now anyway so I'll check my receipts this weekend as I only print out the final confirmation page and not the email.
I just noticed something new. On the exhibits in the law suit, Apple recommends you print the page for your records! You can't argue that Apple prints the information to the screen, but you can argue that it doesn't count as "printing" according to the law. However, because Apple tells you on that very page that you should print a copy for your records, it is quite clear that Apple intends to offer the page as a printed receipt.
Anyone can sue. The question is whether they can get past that to recover statutory damages or get anything at all.
Anyway, I checked my receipts that I printed (to pdf--yea trees!) and every one of them has only hte last 5 digits of my cc number. so these must be some oddball receipts.
ETA: The statute also says "at the point of sale or transaction" -- if you buy online, how is this providing a receipt at the point of sale?
Also, this seems to boil down to whether "or" means "and" -- does the statue prohibt printing any expiration date at all or does it mean "no more than five digits and expiration date"? These guys are relying on the former, which seems correct.
A local store franchise where I live was printing my full CC # on their receipts. I just called the owner of the stores and told him it was against the law. Went there a week later, and only the last 4 digits were shown on the receipts. No suing necessary. It is hard to believe a company as large as apple would violate a law so obvious as this. It is really incredible. How can you run a business without knowing this law??? I am disappointed.
if someone is good enough to grab that screen, they already have your CC number from when it was transmitted to the server in the first place. it's all secure, i'm sure.
First off it is not a receipt at all. If you look at the pdf it is an order confirmation screen that Apple shows so that the purchaser can see what they have ordered and what card they used. It does not work as a receipt. You can not take the print out of that screen to any Apple location as proof of purchase, because at that point all Apple has done is confirm that the card is valid. It may take up to a few hours before that is actually charged to you, and your credit card company still has to actually authorize it. At the point you get that screen you have not actually made a transaction, you have only made the intention of making one. Apple suggests printing it for your records so you know what you have ordered and can confirm it when you receive your actual receipt in email which does not include the expiration. So Apple has not in fact broken any laws because the law is in regards to receipts not order confirmations. Perhaps for those concerned about security the laws will need to change to include confirmations, at which point I am sure Apple will make the necessary changes.
Honestly its getting ridiculous the number of under educated lawyers out there willing to jump at any chance of suing a company. Personally I think if a lawyer brings a lawsuit which is baseless they should be disbarred for wasting tax payers dollars and holding up the legal system for legitimate cases. There should be a punishment for not doing the proper amount of research into a case before filing a suit.
Honestly its getting ridiculous the number of under educated lawyers out there willing to jump at any chance of suing a company. Personally I think if a lawyer brings a lawsuit which is baseless they should be disbarred for wasting tax payers dollars and holding up the legal system for legitimate cases. There should be a punishment for not doing the proper amount of research into a case before filing a suit.
Not commenting on the merits of the lawsuit: none of my receipts have more than 4 digits and none have the expiration date. But that doesn't means someone else's didn't.
Many time it is necessary to file a suit: you notice something is amiss (credit card info published, someone demanding SSAN for credit, other illegal or questionable practices) and you write a letter. You might as well talk to a wall since nothing happens. So, some lawyer gets wind of it, files a class action, the problem gets solved, no one is damaged except:
the defendant who pays both sides legal fees if he loses. And the lawyers get all the money.
See practically every successful class action: the plaintiffs get a gift certificate, a warrant to buy more stock, whatever (and it usually has approximately zero value to the customer and zero cost to the company), and the lawyers get cash.
Ed
Many time it is necessary to file a suit: you notice something is amiss (credit card info published, someone demanding SSAN for credit, other illegal or questionable practices) and you write a letter. You might as well talk to a wall since nothing happens. So, some lawyer gets wind of it, files a class action, the problem gets solved, no one is damaged except:
the defendant who pays both sides legal fees if he loses. And the lawyers get all the money.
See practically every successful class action: the plaintiffs get a gift certificate, a warrant to buy more stock, whatever (and it usually has approximately zero value to the customer and zero cost to the company), and the lawyers get cash.
Ed
I think reading paragraph 12 clearly states they want damages to the amount they are entitled form the legislation
"Plaintiffs seek, on behalf of themselves and the class, statuary damage, punitive damages, cost and attorney fees, all of which are expressly made available pursuant to 15 U.S.C. 1681".......
and they ask for an injunciton
Apple surely has a legal team that should be aware on how to deal with business rules.
http://www.legalhelpmate.com/legal-dictionary-r.aspx?page=3
receipt
n. a written and signed acknowledgment by the recipient of payment for goods, money in payment of a debt or receiving assets from the estate of someone who has died.
http://www.legalhelpmate.com/legal-dictionary-r.aspx?page=3
"Plaintiffs seek, on behalf of themselves and the class, statuary damage, punitive damages, cost and attorney fees, all of which are expressly made available pursuant to 15 U.S.C. 1681".......
and they ask for an injunciton
Apple surely has a legal team that should be aware on how to deal with business rules.
http://www.legalhelpmate.com/legal-dictionary-r.aspx?page=3
receipt
n. a written and signed acknowledgment by the recipient of payment for goods, money in payment of a debt or receiving assets from the estate of someone who has died.
http://www.legalhelpmate.com/legal-dictionary-r.aspx?page=3
Merriam-Webster's online dictionary, print, verb, definition 2d:
Not to mention that the act of displaying characters on a screen has always been referred to as "printing", as evidenced, for example, by the name of standard C functions like "printf". I'll concur that this is a matter of interpretation for the judge, but the definition and traditions of language mean that it is reasonable to include computer displays in this instance of "printing". Also see my other posts about Apple's intent that you print a paper copy of the receipt.
This is an entirely separate issue! The point is that the law is intended to conceal information from prying eyes, however they might come across the receipts. The law expressly forbids the inclusion of such information on receipts. Just because somebody violates additional laws to encounter the information doesn't mean Apple is absolved from responsibility for illegally displaying the information. Just like if Apple left a copy of your credit card number on an employee's desk, and somebody broke into the Apple building and got your credit card number. Both Apple and the thief are still responsible, because Apple should have taken appropriate measures to keep your information private!
Apple should just do the right thing and correct the issue. Not sure why they been in violation all this time.
It is a RECEIPT of your order. Placing an order is itself a transaction. I would also think that Apple authorizes your charge before showing that confirmation, because they don't want to waste time processing the order if the creditor won't pay, but that is irrelevant. If something goes wrong, you will receive a CANCELLATION notice, because they are canceling the order you've already placed.
I will say it again. The screen in question is NOT a receipt. No actual transaction has occurred at that point. It is the confirmation screen showing what you have agreed to order. You receive your receipt by email. Only the emailed receipt is accepted as proof of purchase. There is a reason it says wait 90 minutes before calling to make changes because it takes time for it to post to the credit card agency. I know this since I work in online commerce. The screen you see is always simply a confirmation of intent to order. That is why the screen does not say Receipt. If it said receipt and could be used as one, then it is a receipt. Since it doesn't and does not constitute a receipt, IE: you can not take this print out and use it as proof of purchase, then it is not. It is simply to show that what you entered prior and clicked confirmed was actually received accurately. Just like if you order on the phone to a company and the agent repeats the order back to you and you record it, that does not constitute a receipt either.
As for the discussion of Apple taking responsibility for showing the information on the screen thats a two way door. Its time some of the consumers take some responsibility for themselves and stop crying that a company is not taking extra efforts to protect them from their own stupidity. If you are concerned about information showing on the screen it is YOUR responsibility not the company you are dealing with to take the appropriate precautions to avoid information you do not want others to see from being viewed. You loose your wallet in a store, its not the stores fault if someone picks that up and uses it. You read your credit card number over the phone where someone can over hear you , thats not the companies fault thats yours.
This dreamland people live in where they figure its everyone else's responsibility to look out for their best interests is really annoying. Its counter-evolutionary. If someone is too stupid to survive on their own then nature will take its course.
As for the discussion of Apple taking responsibility for showing the information on the screen thats a two way door. Its time some of the consumers take some responsibility for themselves and stop crying that a company is not taking extra efforts to protect them from their own stupidity. If you are concerned about information showing on the screen it is YOUR responsibility not the company you are dealing with to take the appropriate precautions to avoid information you do not want others to see from being viewed. You loose your wallet in a store, its not the stores fault if someone picks that up and uses it. You read your credit card number over the phone where someone can over hear you , thats not the companies fault thats yours.
This dreamland people live in where they figure its everyone else's responsibility to look out for their best interests is really annoying. Its counter-evolutionary. If someone is too stupid to survive on their own then nature will take its course.
You are absolutely wrong. Apple is displaying information that I _need_ to check if all the details in my order are correct. I _want_ to be able to check the credit card number because if I typed it wrong I won't receive the goods. I _want_ to be able to check the address because if I typed it wrong I won't receive the goods either.
As an extreme example, I ordered two flights from expedia just yesterday. I most definitely _must_ check if the names on the flights are correct, because otherwise I won't get on the flight!