Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
So you're saying you want the government to control these issues. Our inept over taxing government??? I'll stick with class action lawsuits anyday.

No, I would prefer government keep out of most things. However, this law is a good law, and it ought to be enforced. We can't expect individuals to do it, and a class action lawsuit isn't always the best solution to problems like this. Believe me, I'm no fan of alphabet soup government, but some agencies do do good things.
 
No, I would prefer government keep out of most things. However, this law is a good law, and it ought to be enforced. We can't expect individuals to do it, and a class action lawsuit isn't always the best solution to problems like this. Believe me, I'm no fan of alphabet soup government, but some agencies do do good things.
Yeah, I'll buy that. A good mix of private action and government regs.
 
Funny one plaintiff made three purchases on 7/30/07 the other plaintiff made one purchase on 8/1/07. Then within five days both these people know that apple is violating the Fair Credit Reporting Act and they both seek out a lawyer (Mr. Leighton) who determines this is definitely grounds for a class-action lawsuit. This Clarence Darrow then writes the 11-page complaint and signs it on 8/6/07. Files the lawsuit on 8/7/07 with $350.00 fee. Now he sleeps all snug in his bed with visions of MILLIONS dancing in his head.

These are not consumers who feels that they have been wronged and want justice, no these Plaintiffs and lawyers are money-grubbing pigs. :mad:

Remember: What do you have with a lawyer who is buried up to his neck in cement.. Not enough cement. :D

Actually, reading the information in the lawsuit, I was able to easily find that the guy who made the three purchases employs the girl who made the one purchase. This was no chance meeting of two wronged individuals.
 
That is not an official receipt. It is a printout of the order confirmation page. It is common practice for countless websites selling products, services, accommodation etc. to display an order confirmation before the official receipt is either displayed or distributed by email.

Notice the continue shopping buttons on the scanned document. INAL but I do not believe the legislation referred to here applies to invoices or online order confirmations. The official receipt is a separate document and it is the plaintiff's problem if they printed out this page and failed to secure it.

Perhaps AAPL shareholders should file a class action lawsuit against these individuals and their lawyers for fraud and stock manipulation. They should be investigated to see if they shorted any AAPL stock.
 
The american legal system is beginning to get way out of control. Too many ridiculous and greedy people out there. Over here in england we regularly hear of absurd stories of people trying to sue each other. I'm not saying it doesnt happen here but americans have taken it to a whole new level. You cant deny the US has become notorious across the world now for lawsuits and ridiculous disclaimers all over the place. Great country, stupid system!

In this case, I can see that they dont want their details to be displayed, but is there any need for a lawsuit? Maybe if someone had stolen the details and committed fraud but this hasn't happened. Its crazy that anyone should receive damages for something thats not even happened! Most I would expect is an apology.

Some people are just plain greedy, and whoever said earlier about lazy people just trying to find an easy way to make a quick buck, hit the nail on the head. Pure greed.
 
Mods note: As fascinating as political discussions are, could we please remain on topic and not let this stray into talking about Katrina, health insurance and Michael Moore? Thank you.
 
Who is exposing

Not sure if its mentioned before, because I didn't read all the messages.

But if I look at the last page of the lawsuit, I can see clearly a serial code there. Maybe should Apple sued them for this, because now they are willingly let other people use quick time pro for free. Or Am I wrong?
 
It seems to me that for the plaintiffs to be successful they have to prove:-
  • The restriction applies to online transactions; and
  • The definition of receipt is broad enough to include an order confirmation; and
  • Printing includes displaying information on screen.

The section restricting the printing of receipts goes on to say:-
(3) Effective date. This subsection shall become effective--
(A) 3 years after the date of enactment of this subsection, with respect to any cash register or other machine or device that electronically prints receipts for credit card or debit card transactions that is in use before January 1, 2005; and
(B) 1 year after the date of enactment of this subsection, with respect to any cash register or other machine or device that electronically prints receipts for credit card or debit card transactions that is first put into use on or after January 1, 2005.


It appears on the face of it that the section was intended to apply to Point of Sale systems such a cash registers. It is not entirely obvious that this section would apply to an online transaction at all, depending on your definition of "other machine or device that electronically prints receipts".

The whole law is about these little machines at a checkout where you insert your credit card, it is read electronically, you enter a pin number, and then a receipt is printed. This is distinct from the more ancient technology where a merchant took your credit card, put it into a machine that copied the embossed number on your credit card onto a piece of paper, and handed you a copy with the complete number. Or the method that merchants would use if that machine didn't work, filling out the form by hand and giving you a copy with the complete number.

What we have here is a completely different situation, and it has nothing to do with that law whatsoever. Makes you wonder if "the plaintiff is completely bonkers" is a legal defence.
 
Not sure if its mentioned before, because I didn't read all the messages.

But if I look at the last page of the lawsuit, I can see clearly a serial code there. Maybe should Apple sued them for this, because now they are willingly let other people use quick time pro for free. Or Am I wrong?

You aren't the first to point this out. As you require the full name and/or organization along with the serial, it could be tricky to get it going, but with their names in full view I think that someone may have succeeded.
 
This is a frivolous lawsuit. Apple doesn't print these receipts. Apple displays a webpage, containing information that you entered just ten seconds earlier, and tells you that you can print this webpage and keep it for your records if you choose to do so. If you don't want them printed, there is a very simple solution: Don't print them!
:mad:

Yeah. What he said. The language is "print", which may have no specific legal definition as yet -- unfortunately it may cost Apple a lot in legal fees to have one defined (the suit probably has a long passage explaining plaintiff's theory on how displaying on a browser page is tantamount to printing). But it's not "display" or "create" or "generate"; and the "receipt" is created in what is a secure system for ordering products the process of which requires a login name and password to complete the sale and have the receipt generated. I have an online credit/bank account from which you couldn't get enough information to do anything and one from which you could -- both are secure, login systems. Neither actually prints out receipts without my interaction. I pay some bills online for which I use a credit card to make payment and *most* of them include the last four digits of the card number *and* the expiration date on the browser page receipt.

The spirit of the *law* is that you don't at a physical store get handed a piece of paper that contains enough information to fraudulently use your credit card, a piece of paper which you can easily drop and have the wind carry off before you can retrieve it -- which if so interpreted nixes the browser page as printing argument. And also the law makes it so you don't feel you need to shred all those receipts you don't file for warranty or tax purposes, the ones with tiny amounts from Starbucks and convenience stores, etc.

The spirit of the *lawsuit* is to stretch the definition of this consumer protection law so that trial lawyers make a lot of money. If plaintiff were to settle or win, unless actual participants in the class have actual damages -- I doubt -- plaintiff's attorneys could make millions plus expenses while plaintiffs of the class will get a $5 gift card to the the Apple Store.

Apple gets hit with a lot of this ridiculous class-action litigation because despite having only a very small share of the personal computer market and being nothing like a Microsoft in scale -- iPod notwithstanding -- they are a cash-rich company.

a p.s. to trial lawyers and their loved ones reading this: Some of you trial lawyers are true heroes of our legal system and protectors of real victims with limited means to defend themselves. You stop bad doctors, bad products, bad drugs, bad employers and all sorts of bad acts from continuing egregious behavior and victimization in our market; you seek damages to restore your clients near as whole as possible; and then you financially punish the defendants for doing things in violation of the law or decency, things they most often know they shouldn't have done to unwitting consumers in the first place -- therefore hopefully preventing future violations of ethics, not only from them but from others in selling in the market. But in any profession, in any group of people, there are greedy little pinheads, and trial law is no different.
 
Damages

and where does it say the class would get $100 - $1000 each!?

I read point 27:

"However, plaintiffs do not seek to quantify or recover actual damages in this case. either for themselves or the class"

That says to me they are seeking no damages and are therefore taking Apple to court for the hell of it to get them to sort themselves out.

The Act provides for statutory damages of $100-$1000 (not sure if that's per person or per violation) - see Section 616(a)(1)(A). That is an alternative to actual damages, and is usually given when it is too difficult to prove actual damages.
 
The Act provides for statutory damages of $100-$1000 (not sure if that's per person or per violation) - see Section 616(a)(1)(A). That is an alternative to actual damages, and is usually given when it is too difficult to prove actual damages.

Or it would indicate that plaintiffs suffered no actual damages and are therefore seeking only statutory damages which may possibly be awarded in the case there are no actual damages. In other words, they can't prove them because there aren't any. And I should say plaintiffs' attorneys because this is quite cooked up. Plaintiffs -- ahem, plaintiffs' attorneys -- will seek fees, expenses and punitive damages, too. Plaintiffs' attorneys will retire on the proceeds of the settlement -- I can't imagine Apple will expend the time and money to fight this, although I wish they would because it would in the context of this law establish the definition of "printed" -- and all of us who ever purchased anything from the Apple Store will get a letter in the mail -- most long-time Apple customers have received a few of these -- establishing a deadline for registering as part of the class to be included in the settlement, which in recognition of the significant financial losses we have incurred from having our credit card expiration dates displayed on a secure web page in an online store will award us a $10 discount on future purchases from the Apple Store Online.

I just went through a folder full of PDF receipts I keep from online purchases and bill payments with credit cards and most of them do in fact include both the last four digits of the credit card number and the expiration date. I used to have an Xbox Live subscription and Microsoft displays same in their payment confirmation screens, which can be considered "receipts" as much as Apple Store Online browser pages. I would expect somewhere, sometime one of these firms, including Apple, has had their legal team look over the "receipt" and establish that complies with the federal regulations, even if it just because it is not "printed" -- although no one ever went broke overestimating the sheer incompetence of corporations.

Why are they only going after Apple? Because these other companies are bigger, meaner and will fight this until they bankrupt the law firm that is doing this on contingency, on expenses alone. (That would be funny.) Or they are too small or cash-poor to pay a tidy settlement, so they will have to enter a reconstructive bankruptcy for protection -- in which case plaintiffs' attorneys don't make a dime and are out expenses -- or will be forced to fight it as best they can -- in which case plaintiff's attorneys will have to expend a lot of those expense quite well may lose.

This is indefensible. Apple's practice, the practice in general since it is not just Apple's, in my opinion provides no substantial risk, but more importantly does not violate the the spirit of the law -- which is aimed at *pieces of paper* -- or quite likely not the letter, either. But Apple makes the business decision to settle, so plaintiffs' attorneys make a fortune, those who bother to register in the class receive a pittance usable under limited circumstances, Apple's customers absorb the cost of the settlement in higher prices and their employees absorb same in lower wages.

And we wonder why every year everything is much more expensive but we make less and less money. You got to love it. I wish I'd slept through my ethics courses, too.
 
... sorry, but I for one am glad these folks are suing for this reason. I'm a Mac addict and I've been with Apple through many ups and downs, but suits like this are part of living in this country. By this I mean that although it is a bit offensive to use our propensity to sue as a typifier of what it means to be American, the fact is our federal govt's official stance toward business and the govt's attitude concerning the relationship between business and the consumer basically boils down to these phrases: "lassiez-faire" and "caveat emptor."

It still amazes me how many businesses I've been to continue to print out ALL of the account numbers on receipts for credit- or debit-card purchases. Suits like this are meant to change this behavior. Imagine what an identity thief could do at a bar or restaurant that printed out all those numbers on receipts, where customers generally leave their receipts unattended for the server to retrieve.

You can cry frivolous lawsuits all you want, but our right to sue is extremely important, and we exercise it more in America because we aren't as protected as well we probably should be against corporate interests. And the McDonald's lady? Serious burns on the insides of her legs for coffee that was heated far past the company's own specifications. She deserved all the money she got, and we should be THANKING HER and her attorneys for helping make sure that the rest of us don't get scalded in the same way. As far as I'm concerned, she EARNED that money for stepping up to the plate the way she did.
 
... sorry, but I for one am glad these folks are suing for this reason. I'm a Mac addict and I've been with Apple through many ups and downs, but suits like this are part of living in this country. By this I mean that although it is a bit offensive to use our propensity to sue as a typifier of what it means to be American, the fact is our federal govt's official stance toward business and the govt's attitude concerning the relationship between business and the consumer basically boils down to these phrases: "lassiez-faire" and "caveat emptor."

It still amazes me how many businesses I've been to continue to print out ALL of the account numbers on receipts for credit- or debit-card purchases. Suits like this are meant to change this behavior. Imagine what an identity thief could do at a bar or restaurant that printed out all those numbers on receipts, where customers generally leave their receipts unattended for the server to retrieve.

You can cry frivolous lawsuits all you want, but our right to sue is extremely important, and we exercise it more in America because we aren't as protected as well we probably should be against corporate interests. And the McDonald's lady? Serious burns on the insides of her legs for coffee that was heated far past the company's own specifications. She deserved all the money she got, and we should be THANKING HER and her attorneys for helping make sure that the rest of us don't get scalded in the same way. As far as I'm concerned, she EARNED that money for stepping up to the plate the way she did.
IWow. I have to pretty much disagree with you 100% there. I thought the McDonalds case was absolutely pathetic. Thats the difference between American/British culture with regards to these things I guess.
 
IWow. I have to pretty much disagree with you 100% there. I thought the McDonalds case was absolutely pathetic. Thats the difference between American/British culture with regards to these things I guess.

All things aside, you need to remember that McDonalds did a lot of things wrong in that case. Firstly, they knew that the coffee makers were malfunctioning ahead of time, and that there was potential for someone to get hurt. Secondly, they didn't do anything to fix the problem, and thirdly, how do you get 3rd degree burns from coffee? This lady was an old grandma who didn't like to go around suing people, but she had no other choice after McDonalds gave her the brush-off. What she did allowed others to know that they don't have to take abuse from corporations.

Back to Apple though, if they are quilty of doing what the plantiffs aledge, then Apple deserves to pay up. It will only make the company we all love stronger if they have to be mindful of consumers' wishes.
 
Funny one plaintiff made three purchases on 7/30/07 the other plaintiff made one purchase on 8/1/07. Then within five days both these people know that apple is violating the Fair Credit Reporting Act and they both seek out a lawyer (Mr. Leighton) who determines this is definitely grounds for a class-action lawsuit. This Clarence Darrow then writes the 11-page complaint and signs it on 8/6/07. Files the lawsuit on 8/7/07 with $350.00 fee. Now he sleeps all snug in his bed with visions of MILLIONS dancing in his head.

Nice observation. ....
 
Up a ways the post that started the run of quotes from old plays and then the contemporary death threats completely lacking a sense of irony, in that post the argument that frivolous lawsuits are good and should be allowed to continue because they are the American Way is like arguing that we should tolerate child molesters and not speak out against them because having your children molested is part of the risk of having children. We are not compelled to accept the bad with the good without attempting to fix the bad. The right in this country to sue anyone for anything is important policy; the right to chastise some plaintiffs' attorneys for abusing that right is just as important.

But it should be understood this is *not* about protecting consumers from Apple's "reckless" online receipt displays. It's about money, and not for consumers "damaged" by this practice. This isn't a bunch of Apple customers who noticed this practice potentially in violation of federal consumer protection laws who then found a trial firm willing to take the case on contingency and thus moved forward with aiding in protecting us all. These are plaintiffs' attorneys who go out and *troll* for these sort of violations on potential technicalities and then *recruit* clients to act as named parties for the class. That's indefensible on ethical grounds. It's one thing to say it's important we should be able to sue anyone for anything no matter how trivial, it's another thing to say it's okay to subvert reasonable ethic to actually do it just for money. Do I think greater restrictions should be placed on the right to sue in the States? No. Do I think the plaintiffs and attorneys in some ridiculous suits should called upon to apply higher ethical standards in exercising this right? Yes.

As for the McDonald's case the punitive reward was far out of scale with what happened. As I recall, and I'm not bothering to look up that case so grab a grain of salt, the actual damages award was rather small and reasonable, chiefly covering the woman's medical expenses. And a punitive award was called for; the woman was after all somewhat permanently disfigured. But tens or hundreds of millions in punitive damages should be reserved for cases of gross misconduct -- discovering from human trials that will be redacted or buried that a new drug developed to treat a trivial or non-critical condition will kill or injure lots of people, but marketing it anyway; not incorrectly following the procedure for making fast food coffee -- and the same in actual damages is reasonably reserved for the chronic lifelong care of some who has been severely, permanently disabled by negligence. Also, as I recall, the punitive award in that ridiculously infamous coffee case was significantly reduced upon appeal. That's how it goes with awards of that size: the popular press makes sure *everyone* hear about it, but 18 months later when the award is reduced on appeal, there's little but a brief mention.

The Monkey sounds like he might be a trial lawyer, related to one or aspiring to the profession. May he and any other trial lawyers feeling put upon please see my postscript to a previous post a few pages back: to wit, I don't hate you, I think most of you serve us all well and play an irreplaceable role in defending the public and our limited resources against professional malpractice big business and with their often massive war-chests. But you can't justify fishing for stupid cases like this merely to make a buck.

This receipt case is just stupid, even if "printed" can be interpreted to mean an online display. If the plaintiffs' attorneys are so altruistic, why not merely write a few letters to Apple's corporate counsel explaining why they think Apple may be in violation of a federal consumer protection law?


Nice observation. ....

This happens all the time. The trial firm found the potential case and then recruited clients. No one complained before they were enlisted by the attorneys. Unethical as all hell, but hardly uncommon.
 
"......let's kill all the lawyers"

W.Shakespeare

Did Shakespeare really use a contraction? I'm surprised.

Besides, not all lawyers are ambulance chasers. There are times when they can be helpful. (I'm surprised that I'm saying that.)

I don't understand how things got so blown out of proportion but I still don't understand how a woman could be burned by hot coffee and win or someone else could get a settlement over cherry pits at McDonalds.
 
I would like to point out that printing the order confirmation page would be akin to taking a digital camera and photographing the screen of the order summary on the cash register screen although you might get in trouble for doing the latter.
 
Well, the law degree may be the most popular professional degree and that means lots of less than adequate lawyers who are in it for the money.
But what about the lawyers who work for environmental causes, civil rights, public defenders, etc., protecting citizens from the DA, IRS, FAA and other government agencies intent on destroying the lives of people caught up their web. The good lawyers may be few and far between but they DO exist!!
And there are many successful class action lawsuits which have protected consumer rights.
 
Did Shakespeare really use a contraction? I'm surprised.

Besides, not all lawyers are ambulance chasers. There are times when they can be helpful. (I'm surprised that I'm saying that.)

I don't understand how things got so blown out of proportion but I still don't understand how a woman could be burned by hot coffee and win or someone else could get a settlement over cherry pits at McDonalds.
.

Thanks for the moderating....I intended no offence with my quote of the Bard.
Just a bit of levity is all. :D

I'm sure there are many fine lawyers out there who do what they do for the cause not the effect.

Meanwhile, I'm very pleased to see the conversation turn to more erudite matters......
Yes, Will was quite the contractionist. ;)

As for the boiling coffee...I had one from MacD the other day and it was so scalding hot that it would have melted flesh! So what does that say about the system?
 
I don't understand how things got so blown out of proportion but I still don't understand how a woman could be burned by hot coffee and win or someone else could get a settlement over cherry pits at McDonalds.

The woman suffered burns due to the coffee. The damages she received included medical expenses and pain and suffering which we should all agree is reasonable. But her big windfall was in punitive damages. The purpose of punitive damages is to change the defendant's conduct. A company as large as McDonald's will not change their behavior for just $10,000. The way they calculated the punitive was by adding up two days worth of nationwide coffee sales. The point is to make it large enough so McDonald's won't do it again.

For those who don't understand this logic-remember the Ford Pinto. Ford did the math; they could have added a part to the Pinto for less than $100 per car or pay out an average of $200,000 per death. The total for fixing the Pintos were higher than if they just paid out per death, so they didn't fix it.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.