Apple Sues Psystar over OpenComputer

[oban14]

So, some people here think that they can buy something someone else worked hard to create, agree to the owners terms of sale, and are still entitled to do whatever they want with the owner's work without any permission, because they want to?

I think if I buy a CD, there are certain inherent rights. I can rip it, I can re-sell it (provided I delete any of my own copies), I can make copies for my own use, and I can play it on any CD player I choose.

If I buy a copy of OSX, I feel I have certain inherent rights. That includes building my own computer and installing it there.

 

[markm49uk]

Stop, stop! You're making the fanbois cry!

You are truly irritating me now....

What Psystar are doing is illegal and I hope Apple bury them big style.

I personally hope that Apple never, ever, detach the OS from the hardware (that I do pay a premium for I agree) - this would be a huge mistake if they were to go down this route.

 

[r.j.s]

I think if I buy a CD, there are certain inherent rights. I can rip it, I can re-sell it (provided I delete any of my own copies), I can make copies for my own use, and I can play it on any CD player I choose.

If I buy a copy of OSX, I feel I have certain inherent rights. That includes building my own computer and installing it there.

You DO have those rights, that has been said over and over again. You do NOT have the right to open a business selling those computers you built, because YOU are PROFITING from SOMEONE ELSE'S intellectual property. That is the key here, not you doing what you want with your copy.

 

[gnasher729]

If a CD was sold with a EULA stating that it could only be played on Sony CD players, do you think that EULA would be legal? Would you consider me a thief for playing it on a Panasonic CD player?

I don't know if the EULA would be valid. You could avoid having to answer the question by not buying the CD. I think the EULA would be valid, but I wouldn't be sure if the copyright holder of the CD could sue you, the end user, if you played it on a Panasonic player.

However, if Panasonic started selling these CDs, modified to work on Panasonic CD players, they wouldn't be "end users". They would need permission of the copyright holder to sell the CDs. And since creating a modified CD surely involved unauthorised copying, there would be most definitely copyright infringement.

Another point: When I said the EULA would be valid, that means if Panasonic advised you how to play the CD on your Panasonic CD player, they would be interfering with the business relationship between you and Sony. Even if Sony couldn't sue you for breaching the EULA, Panasonic would still be advising you how to breach the EULA, and they are not allowed to do that.

 

[gehrbox]

You DO have those rights, that has been said over and over again. You do NOT have the right to open a business selling those computers you built, because YOU are PROFITING from SOMEONE ELSE'S intellectual property. That is the key here, not you doing what you want with your copy.

Just for sake of accuracy, you don't have the right to install OS X on a computer you built, whether it be for your own or someone else's use: http://www.apple.com/legal/sla/macosx.html

In particular para 2 states:

"2. Permitted License Uses and Restrictions.
A. This License allows you to install and use one copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-labeled computer at a time. This License does not allow the Apple Software to exist on more than one computer at a time,and you may not make the Apple Software available over a network where it could be used by multiple computers at the same time. You may make one copy of the Apple Software (excluding the Boot ROM code) in machine-readable form for backup purposes only; provided that the backup copy must include all copyright or other proprietary notices contained on the original."

 

[Cherimoya]

You DO have those rights, that has been said over and over again. You do NOT have the right to open a business selling those computers you built, because YOU are PROFITING from SOMEONE ELSE'S intellectual property. That is the key here, not you doing what you want with your copy.

Aren't Apple saying you don't have those rights? By saying the boxed version of OSX is 'upgrade' only it would prevent you from building your own computer and installing it.

 

[markm49uk]

I think if I buy a CD, there are certain inherent rights. I can rip it, I can re-sell it (provided I delete any of my own copies), I can make copies for my own use, and I can play it on any CD player I choose.

If I buy a copy of OSX, I feel I have certain inherent rights. That includes building my own computer and installing it there.

Do you read other peoples posts or are you just deliberately being dumb to annoy people ?

YOU (that's YOU as in YOU the individual) can do, in the privacy of your own home, what you want to your copy of Leopard. What YOU cannot do is then sell this to OTHER people to make a profit ?

How can you not understand this ????

 

[r.j.s]

I guess I should have been clearer, I was focusing on the CD issue.

 

[ataylor]

perhaps this is better for the cd/music analogy:

it's kind of like cover songs. no one is going to get in trouble for playing a classic song at their local open mic or whatever, but if you record it and put it on your album without the proper permission, you're going to get into trouble.

simple analogy, but i think it's along those same lines.

ataylor

 

[Eric S.]

I see a few PRO-Psystar posts here.

I don't understand that. If you support Psystar - WHY?
If you support Psystar - have you bought something from them?

I haven't bought anything from Psystar but I have thought seriously about it. I would like a midrange desktop system that runs OS X. If Apple offered one, I would buy one from them. They choose not to, so I'd be happy to buy one from someone else. I bought a Mac clone back when Apple supported them and it was a good system for its day. As for Psystar, I was waiting to see how they handled their support issues, and it did seem like they were getting their act together.

You are truly irritating me now....

What Psystar are doing is illegal and I hope Apple bury them big style.

It's not illegal just because Apple says so. A court has to agree.

 

[dejo]

How about every single Psystar customer? Is that enough people voting with their dollars to convince you?

How many units has Psystar sold? I'm curious.

 

[inkswamp]

If psystar wins maybe I can install the XBox 360 OS on something generic because Microsoft should not be allowed to sell that whole widget either.

Oh, such drama!

Microsoft does not sell the XBox 360 OS as a standalone software product, therefore, some form of piracy would have to have been involved to install it on something other than an XBox 360. That's illegal.

In the case of non-Apple hardware running a legitimately purchased copy of OS X, there has been no piracy. What law has been broken in this situation?

 

[sfh]

They didn't change 10.5.4

Well, as AI reports, the filing was one day after Psystar released a modified version of the 10.5.4 update. That's pretty telling.

Psystar - nothing was changed for 10.5.4 ... 10.5.3 used a script to install different open source drivers.

 

[AW.kennedy]

interseting

I'd like it if oneday apple decided to release their operating system onto the PC market and completely dominate microsoft.

 

[farmboy]

Two separate products...

But in the case of apple computers, the OS and hardware are one product, not two separate ones from two separate makers.

Just because they are bundled, it does not mean they are not separate products. They have separate product codes and are available separately. The fact that they are from one vendor matters not.

 

[nsayer]

Not so much

No, they bought a license, which they agreed to by installing/clicking "I agree." See the EULA.

Ex post facto amendments to sales contracts (what you meant when you said EULA) are not worth the pixels they're printed with.

Fortunately for Apple, Psystar has done enough shady things that Apple can sue them out of existence without raising the question of whether or not the EULA is enforceable.

 

[sfh]

in store tethering

hey guys i just had this great idea ...
they could force you to activate your osx disk through an in-store tethering process. then sign a 2 year contact, giving the rights of your first born on early termination.


that would solve those pesky psystar people from using our software on their computers!

 

[CWallace]

Apple has the right to sue them but Im sad that they are. People need some cheaper options if Apple cares to grow to the masses.

That strategy - licensing the Mac Clones - did great damage to the company, financially.

Apple continues to make the bulk of their revenues off hardware sales. While the iPod and iPhone lines generate a great deal of cash now that didn't exist back in the clone days, the fact remains that more and more people will buy Psystar machines because they run OS X cheaper then a Macintosh does and that means Apple's Mac unit will see diminishing revenues which means they'll be less able to continue pushing out updates.

 

[nsayer]

Just for sake of accuracy, you don't have the right to install OS X on a computer you built, whether it be for your own or someone else's use: http://www.apple.com/legal/sla/macosx.html

It is by no means indisputably established that EULAs, which represent ex post facto extensions to the sales contract, are valid. If they are not, then in fact you DO have the right to install OS X on a computer you built, the EULA not withstanding. Absent the EULA, about the only thing you cannot do to your legally purchased copy of Leopard is copy the disk and sell or give those copies away - that would be a violation of copyright law.

 

[farmboy]

From Oban14: They are providing a service and product that Apple won't, and their success is the only reason they're being sued.

Right. So if I make a $12,000 car, call it Mercedes Benz, and sell it....it's OK because I'm selling a product and service that Mercedes won't. Yeah, OK.


From Oban14: Really? So now it's OK for me to build a Hackintosh out of random PC parts, buy a copy of Leopard, find a hack around the EFI bios and install it? That's all Psystar is doing.

God, you've spent all day being deliberately obtuse. Psystar can do whatever they want in their own basement. THEY CAN'T SELL SOMEONE ELSE'S PROPERTY! SELL!

From Oban14: I have the right to play a CD in my car, in my home, at my workplace. I have the right to rip it and play it on an ipod and stream it anywhere I want to listen to it. I can play it at a barbecue.

Really? No restrictions? Go play your CD as the source of music at even a small, promoted festival or something---and watch the record industry attorneys sue your ass AND WIN for more than you'll make in your lifetime.

From Oban14: If a CD was sold with a EULA stating that it could only be played on Sony CD players, do you think that EULA would be legal? Would you consider me a thief for playing it on a Panasonic CD player?[/QUOTE]

Are you selling it? As many posters have mentioned---do you just not get this distinction? Don't ever represent yourself in a courtroom, even for a parking ticket; you won't like the outcome.

 

[TuffLuffJimmy]

Oh, such drama!

Microsoft does not sell the XBox 360 OS as a standalone software product, therefore, some form of piracy would have to have been involved to install it on something other than an XBox 360. That's illegal.

In the case of non-Apple hardware running a legitimately purchased copy of OS X, there has been no piracy. What law has been broken in this situation?

Every copy of OSX is an upgrade disk. So installing it on a machine that did not have OSX installed on it previously is illegal.

 

[jbernie]

Having never actually looked at the packaging for Leopard or any other version Apple sells, does it say anywhere on the packaging that it is an "Upgrade" version or does it just say something like "Apple OS Leopard" and the machine requirements or?

This in itself is important, if it does not say "Upgrade" then Apple's case is weakened slightly in that Psystar can say that there is no verbage indicating an upgrade, also if there is no check during the install to verify that the system owner has a valid original OS disc then this enforces the not an upgrade message.

I am not saying that this is right or wrong, just saying that this could potentially hurt Apple's case.

But if they still charge you $20 for the hacked/pirated version and full whack for the sealed copy ... there could still be a problem.

Wrong. According to Psystar's website, Leopard pre-installed is $155. Leopard costs $129 to purchase from Apple or it's resellers. That means you would be charged $26 for their version of Leopard that they preload, assuming they pay full price for their copies of Leopard.

Are they charging you the extra money for the operating system itself or are they charging you extra money for "work performed" to get the OS to work on the system they are selling you? If it is document as operating system $155 then they are likely to have issues, if it is documented as operating system $129 + install $26 then their position is improved, it isn't problem free, just better.

Another question Apple will likely need to answer in court is why it took so long to take action? If the issue is over the operating system being installed on a non "Apple" machine then once a consumer recieved the product they had reason to sue but let it run. Given the number of media outlets who reported they had purchased and received such a system it wasn't hard to get evidence of such machines being delivered. Also, Apple is not in a position to say they were not aware of the infraction given it was about the biggest news in the IT world for a few weeks.

All in all, I still go with my original comment, I would not be willing to give Apple the case just yet, they also need to be careful about how they proceed. These sorts of cases where BIG company takes on little company can give BIG company a bad reputation regardless of right vs wrong. Just look at how people react when a BIG company takes on some very small company for trademark/copyright infringement, some single person company somewhere gets a cease order because their logo resembles the BIG company logo and then every beats on the BIG company for being mean spritied and cruel.

 

[RandallC]

I had no idea it was immoral to buy a second hand book that the original owner had annotated. I guess I'll do the Right Thing and burn my collection.

This is a poor analogy since you own the book, but you own only a license to the software. There is a difference.

 

[vansouza]

From Oban14: They are providing a service and product that Apple won't, and their success is the only reason they're being sued.

Right. So if I make a $12,000 car, call it Mercedes Benz, and sell it....it's OK because I'm selling a product and service that Mercedes won't. Yeah, OK.


From Oban14: Really? So now it's OK for me to build a Hackintosh out of random PC parts, buy a copy of Leopard, find a hack around the EFI bios and install it? That's all Psystar is doing.

God, you've spent all day being deliberately obtuse. Psystar can do whatever they want in their own basement. THEY CAN'T SELL SOMEONE ELSE'S PROPERTY! SELL!

From Oban14: I have the right to play a CD in my car, in my home, at my workplace. I have the right to rip it and play it on an ipod and stream it anywhere I want to listen to it. I can play it at a barbecue.

Really? No restrictions? Go play your CD as the source of music at even a small, promoted festival or something---and watch the record industry attorneys sue your ass AND WIN for more than you'll make in your lifetime.

From Oban14: If a CD was sold with a EULA stating that it could only be played on Sony CD players, do you think that EULA would be legal? Would you consider me a thief for playing it on a Panasonic CD player?

You have demonstrated wisdom beyond your years. Well said.

 

[mrsebastian]

dear steve,
i used to be a die-hard apple/mac fan, i even owned stock and recently sold it all (thanks for helping to get rid of my debt)... it used to be you could buy an apple computer and it would run forever (albeit slower than it's competition, but i digress), hence forth the extra cost was worth the hardware and certainly the software of which i'm still a fan. the last 12 macs i have purchased in approximately 5-6 years (i try to cycle my computers annually to keep depreciation down) have ALL, except for one, failed mechanically and needed use of their warranty.

so what all that means is that i for one, hope this is a big step to being able to install osx anywhere and let me worry about the hardware. back when apple only had a limited number of customers, they actually gave a [bleep] about keeping them and produced good quality hardware to go with intuitive software... heck i can even remember playing dark castle back in the 80s, on a mac that now sits as "art" on a desk at my parents house. yup you guessed it, it still runs perfectly as i fired it up just to see a few weeks ago... these days, apple attitude is just like micro$haft.

ps. one of the best and funniest ironies to make me chuckle of late, is your thoughts on music in regards to this kerfuffle... relating the concepts to each other, would you agree it's fair to say, that you just beat the [bleep] outta the kettle with huge black stick?