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But what Psystar has done is wrong and actionable, as they will soon discover. As BV pointed out so eloquently, what's up with all this "me me me me" entitlement? Apple developed OS X, it's their product - they took all the time and expense and risk to develop, market, sell and support it. They have the legal right to decide whether it can be installed on PCs. Clear as crystal.

This what I have been saying all along, what Psystar is doing is wrong.

But what is worrying is the fact that a lot of people are supporting a wrong idea to further their own interest and are totally ignoring Apple's rights to ownership and the resources they have invested to come up with OSX.

This the height of greed and selfishness. I am just wondering if Psystar supporters will be in the same position if something like this is put up against them. I doubt they will keep their stance.
 
There you go then. In all likelihood, installing OS X on to a Mac Clone is a violation of the EULA (and making it work probably entailed a very similar procedure to the one Psystar is using).

Mac Clones can't run a current version of OS X, and the installed base is insignificantly small. The clone companies themselves are long gone or have focused on other products, and there is no official support for them.

The G3 upgrade cards for the clones, like those made by Sonnet, can run early versions of OS X (using free, open-source, third-party software) but Sonnet does not officially support or endorse this. Nobody is selling or advertising anything for the express purpose of running OS X on the clones.

Psystar, on the other hand, sell computers that represent direct competitors to Apple's current lineup, and run Apple's current OS. They are attempting to sell as many computers as they can. Unlike the clone situation, Pystar is a one-stop shop for a fully functional Mac clone, they are advertising it as such, and they are directly competing with Apple. Totally different situation.
 
This what I have been saying all along, what Psystar is doing is wrong.

But what is worrying is the fact that a lot of people are supporting a wrong idea to further their own interest and are totally ignoring Apple's rights to ownership and the resources they have invested to come up with OSX.

This the height of greed and selfishness. I am just wondering if Psystar supporters will be in the same position if something like this is put up against them. I doubt they will keep their stance.

What I compare it to is this; imagine if a company ordered copies of Windows Vista Starter Edition (the special version only for third world countries), they then hack away at it to bypass the limitations THEN proceed to sell it preloaded on a computer in the US at a cheaper price than legitimate businesses like Dell or HP. I find it therefore funny when I see double standards applied when it comes to Apple protecting its property.

As for the osx86 project itself, no one cared at Apple. It was a frindgy experiment by some people to learn about Mac OS X and getting it running. It was no threat. The line was crossed, however, when this was turned from hobby group of geeks into a money generating business by Pystar. If it remained nothing more than a hobby, nothing would have happened.

The question also raise is this, if they invalidate the Apple EULA, what does it say about all other licences and EULAs that exist.
 
What I compare it to is this; imagine if a company ordered copies of Windows Vista Starter Edition (the special version only for third world countries), they then hack away at it to bypass the limitations THEN proceed to sell it preloaded on a computer in the US at a cheaper price than legitimate businesses like Dell or HP. I find it therefore funny when I see double standards applied when it comes to Apple protecting its property.

The above should not be illegal, IMHO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_importation said:
The United States has unique automobile design legislation. Certain car makers find the required modifications too expensive. This creates demand for grey import vehicles, where certain models are modified for individual customers to meet these requirements, at a higher expense than if this were done by the original manufacturer on an assembly line. This procedure interferes with the marketing scheme of the manufacturer, who might plan to import a less powerful car and force consumers to accept it. This happened in 1981 with the Mercedes-Benz W126.
 
There you go then. In all likelihood, installing OS X on to a Mac Clone is a violation of the EULA (and making it work probably entailed a very similar procedure to the one Psystar is using).

Those Mac clone manufacturers were actually licensed by Apple to use the Mac OS so it was a totally different situation then Psystar
 
If a loaf was copyrighted in the same way, you would not be able to make and sell sandwich made of it - altering and slicing the loaf is against the license!

Some people are trying to stretch this WAY too far.
 
So, under section 117 (a)(1), yes: it is totally permissible for you yourself to make an adaptation (modified copy) of a piece of software for the purpose of making it possible to run that software on your computer equipment. It is also totally permissible for you to create an archival copy of the computer program. The copyright holder does not have any claim to exclusive rights against these activities.

Well found, and completely missing the point. All this only applies if your license allows you to run the software on that machine in the first place. The Leopard license allows you to run Leopard on any Apple-labelled computer. That includes computers that are not supported, like older G3s or even older computers. You are allowed to make any modifications to make Leopard run on these machines. You are even allowed to modify it to run on an Apple II computer because it is an Apple-labelled computer (good luck).

But Psystar doesn't have a license to install Leopard on their computers at all. Since they have no license to install it, they have no license to modify it in order to install it either. And a customer cannot give them permission to do it.
 
If Psystar are building a business around performing what for an individual is a legal act, then they're not doing anything wrong. They may be doing something illegal, but that just means the law is wrong (and should be fixed).

What would you have copyright law say? Since you find it wrong and declare it should be fixed.

What would you do to protect those that create ideas and products? So far, all your comments point to almost nothing. Despite what you tell us, your posts' themes suggest you want anyone to be able to anything they wish with someone else's work.
 
If I buy a piece of "work" from its creator, I have the "moral right" to do whatever the hell I want to that copy.

Look up what moral rights mean.


If I buy a painting, I can write all over it in black marker, piss on it, then throw it into the fireplace and the artist has absolutely no right - moral or otherwise - to interfere.

A painting as an unique object is not comparable to a work that is directly reproducible. However, reproductions of it can be licensed. Furthermore, if you buy a painting, it's assumed that that object belongs to you although the moral right is not automatically transferred with the copyright. Besides, fatuous comparisons with other works are pointless.


Similarly, if I buy a DVD but don't like parts of the movie, I have every "moral right" in the world to make changes to my copy of said movie.

No you don't, because it's not 'your' copy. Look up what moral rights mean.


In no way is supporting what Psystar is doing "abandoning copyright law". It's not in the same ballpark. Hell, it's not even playing the same game.

Of course it is. Because it's distributing, without permission, the work of the licensee.


"Abandoning copyright law" would be something like Psystar taking a copy of the OSX source code (or just disassembling it), making changes and then reselling it as their own product.

Incorrect. You don't have to even modify it, distributing it without permission is enough. I note that the absurd appeal to 'fair use' has been dropped.


Finally, suggesting that only those people who are already riding the copyright gravy train are able to offer informed opinions, is just flat-out insulting.

Anyone who thinks copyrighting work is a gravy train is misinformed and what's more, shows utter contempt for a vital process of commerce. Thanks for proving my point.
 
Those Mac clone manufacturers were actually licensed by Apple to use the Mac OS so it was a totally different situation then Psystar

The Mac Clone makers were licensed to sell System 7. Once Apple shipped System 8 and Apple did not amend the license, they were effectively out of business because if they installed System 8 (to say nothing of OS 9 or OS X), they would have been in violation of their agreement and subject to suit by Apple.
 
So Apple had a choice, to either put out a machine that people want, or sue the company that is doing so.

Too bad they chose to lean on their lawyering skills rather than their engineering skills. One less reason to keep using Apple.
 
So Apple had a choice, to either put out a machine that people want, or sue the company that is doing so.

Too bad they chose to lean on their lawyering skills rather than their engineering skills. One less reason to keep using Apple.

Had they done both I'd have been happy.
 
What I compare it to is this; imagine if a company ordered copies of Windows Vista Starter Edition (the special version only for third world countries), they then hack away at it to bypass the limitations THEN proceed to sell it preloaded on a computer in the US at a cheaper price than legitimate businesses like Dell or HP. I find it therefore funny when I see double standards applied when it comes to Apple protecting its property.

With an atrocious analogy like that, you could probably come up with any "feeling" you wanted.

The question also raise is this, if they invalidate the Apple EULA, what does it say about all other licences and EULAs that exist.

Exactly what it should.
 
What would you have copyright law say? Since you find it wrong and declare it should be fixed.

My views on this particularly topic have been expressed numerous times in this thread.

What would you do to protect those that create ideas and products? So far, all your comments point to almost nothing. Despite what you tell us, your posts' themes suggest you want anyone to be able to anything they wish with someone else's work.

At no point have I said anything of the sort. Stop beating up straw men, they don't deserve it.
 
Nowhere in this thread do you come out and say what your copyright law should say. I'm just curious, in order to clarify all the deductions, assumptions and guesswork from trying to figure it over several pages of posts.

What's more, you have not once answered any of my questions. I'm not trying to beat up straw men, just trying to figure out what this long-standing law should say in order to make the masses happy. (Since the majority should decide what is right and legal, that's worked SO well in the past)
 
Look up what moral rights mean.

My apologies. I thought you were referring to "rights" which had something to do with morality, rather than a loaded phrase invented by the "intellectual property" brigade.

It is unfortunate (albeit quite deliberate, I'm sure) that the co-opting of such phrasses into specific meanings different from those of their component words, makes discussions on the topic difficult.

A painting as an unique object is not comparable to a work that is directly reproducible. However, reproductions of it can be licensed. Furthermore, if you buy a painting, it's assumed that that object belongs to you although the moral right is not automatically transferred with the copyright. Besides, fatuous comparisons with other works are pointless.

Since you appear to be utterly without imagination, I'll change the words a bit:

If I buy a print of a painting, I can write all over it in black marker, piss on it, then throw it into the fireplace and the artist has absolutely no right - moral or otherwise - to interfere.

Or another, perhaps more germane, example:

I have numerous electronic copies of photos taken at my wedding. The copyright for these belongs to the photographer, however, I am perfectly within my rights (legal, moral, or otherwise) to make changes to my copies. For example, I could use photoshop to scribble in moustaches on all the bridesmaids, or change the colour of their dresses, or move swap people heads around. Nothing there is illegal or immoral (at least from the perspective of copyright).

No you don't, because it's not 'your' copy. Look up what moral rights mean.

Again, my apologies for thinking you were using the phrase in some way relevant to the definitions of the words that make it up, rather than as a phrase with some other definition. I'll rephrase to avoid the confusion:

If I buy a piece of "workl" from its creator, I have the "right" to modify that copy, and that is in no way immoral.

Of course it is. Because it's distributing, without permission, the work of the licensee.

No, it's reselling a previously bought copy. No different to someone reselling a CD.

Incorrect. You don't have to even modify it, distributing it without permission is enough.

Reselling an owned copy (without retaining a copy) is not "distribution".

I note that the absurd appeal to 'fair use' has been dropped.

Indeed. It's apparently pointless trying to discuss anything outside the box.

Anyone who thinks copyrighting work is a gravy train is misinformed and what's more, shows utter contempt for a vital process of commerce. Thanks for proving my point.

Copyright is most certainly a gravy train. What other form of "work" lets you sell the result over and over and over and over and over and over again without having to expend any additional effort ? Who _wouldn't_ be overjoyed at the possibility of doing a job once, then being paid for the rest of their lives ?
 
Patrick - you aren't using your arguments consistently - on one side you are syaing Apple's profits must be protected - and on the other hand Psystar's business is for profit.

The analogy with drugs is not tongue in cheek - there will be many who rely on OSX for research/devt into health sw - not everyone uses their Macs for surfing.

Say Apple suddenly increased their prices by 100 times - what would the health companies do that use OSx sw - say you have to go for a scan and it was using OSX.

If you think all large corporations are good - well I think you've led a very sheltered life and are naive in the extreme.

Between a legit corporation that spent millions developing OSX and a dubtious one leeching on those efforts, i believe you are entitled to double standards indeed.

You assumption of apple increasing prices a 100 times is completely hypothetical. What would call for that ? what is the point of doing that for a consumer-oriented software ?

A niche market does not make a for a vast sweeping statement about apple's way of conducting business.

Resisting the urge to patronize you back, i will just say that I work for a VERY large corporation..hence... I am VERY evil.. :cool:
 
Nowhere in this thread do you come out and say what your copyright law should say.

Nor do I need to. I make relevant arguments, use relevant examples and make my opinions on the relevant topics under discussion clear.

I'm just curious, in order to clarify all the deductions, assumptions and guesswork from trying to figure it over several pages of posts.

You don't need to "clarify" anything. My feelings on this topic are as clear as day and have been all the way through. People buying copies of OS X and modifying them to run on non-Apple PCs are doing nothing wrong. They may be doing something illegal, by virtue of the EULA, but such a law is wrong and should be changed. Psystar are doing nothing more than performing these same acts (which should not be illegal) on someone else's behalf and, as such, are also doing nothing wrong.

  • At no point, have I suggested or supported, "pirating" OSX instead of paying for it.
  • At no point, have I suggested or supported, distributing multiple copies of OS X, to multiple recipients, from a single original, for profit.
  • At no point, have I suggested or supported, the idea of Psystar misrepresenting OS X as their own work.

What's more, you have not once answered any of my questions.

That's because all the questions you've asked, were either already "answered" from the get-go or rhetorical straw men (eg: "so you would let people take your hard work and do whatever they wanted to it for their gain, and their gain alone?").

I'm not trying to beat up straw men, just trying to figure out what this long-standing law should say in order to make the masses happy.

You may not be trying to, but you're doing an excellent job of it.

Once again, my viewpoints, relevant to the aspect of copyright under discussion, have been made crystal clear. Numerous times. I"m not sure how many different ways I can write the same thing.
 
and of course there are Apple's claims against Psystar for trademark infringement, trademark dilution and trade dress infringement. Completely disregarding every argument about the EULA and copyright infringement, these issues could be enough to sink Psystar on their own
 
i hope psystar wins

I don't own a psystar because i bought my imac the same week these clones came out. it's unfortunate. Here's the problem with Apple...they're expensive. I need an apple because of the field i am trying to get into. a recent film grad who wants to be an editor...i don't have money for all the software, let alone the expensive mac computer. I have a 'legit' copy of Final Cut Studio.

Of course, a Mac Pro is the preferred computer to use for a professional editing station. I configured a MacPro at the Apple Store and it would had cost me $5000. Should I take out a loan? In these economic times? Can someone pay off my school loans? (and please no comments about how idiots go off to college)

The psystar equivalent to this configuration costs $1200.

Do the math.

It's unfortunate one can't argue monopoly, because it feels like it sometimes (though who knows). Microsoft was forced to break up its components, if I am not mistaken...then it could come down to regulators (or whoever) breaking Apple up into two components? One hardware...and one software. maybe in the EU, where they like to **** with American companies. I sure hope so.

After all...why was Microsoft forced to open its software...it's theirs, is it not? Face it...Apple takes advantage of the fact that so many people rely on Apple computers, and so they jack up the price. If there was competition, prices would be lowered. Isn't that the reason why we have anti-monopoly laws? So consumers don't get screwed. Apple is getting away with murder.

another way to look at it. what if Microssft decides to make their own computers and not allow other companies to support their OS..no more Dell, No more HP, etc. Would they be allowed to do this? Hell no. Apple is no longer a niche market...they won't get away with this much longer.

Edit: does anyone know if Microsoft gave Apple permission to allow Windows to run on a Mac? and to advertise it?
 
It would probably help move along the argument if folks would get their analogies right.

Saying something like an original piece of artwork, which exists as a single, unique element is the same as something like an operating system, which is perfectly duplicated up to hundreds of millions of times is like trying to say Jupiter and a volleyball are the same thing because they're both mostly round. :rolleyes:

Not to mention the Digital Millennium Copyright Act introduces a whole 'nother level of complexity because it applies to things like OS X, but not to things like the Mona Lisa.


And does anyone know how many machines Psystar has sold? Between being the "perfect" size and the "perfect" price, I'd imagine it has to be in the hundreds of thousands to the millions per quarter. Maybe that is why they just put their HQ up for sale - they need more space. :p
 
And does anyone know how many machines Psystar has sold? Between being the "perfect" size and the "perfect" price, I'd imagine it has to be in the hundreds of thousands to the millions per quarter. Maybe that is why they just put their HQ up for sale - they need more space. :p

Quick way for somebody to get rid of a problem tenant, sell the building. :p

Likely this legal issue will do more to hurt the sale than anything else, if the market for new tenants is soft. The Psystar legal issues will basically show up as one tenant in the building that might not be easily replaced. If the new buyer wants an empty building or pays in cash, no worries.

But if they expect all the current tenants to stay for lease term, or the loan officer pulls the tenant financials, not so good and Psystar won't pass muster.
 
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