Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
I keep hearing the same tired reasons for unfair competition on Apple's part over and over again. I see two types of people supporting Apple's position on here as no other types make any logical sense. You have those that support Apple because they own Apple stock and want Apple to make the most money possible (i.e. greed is the motive) and the other type supports the motif in general that the rich and powerful should have the right to make the laws and control the country (i.e. the Republican argument).

Well you all ready miss one big argument.

Apple can keep a higher standard of software if they only have to design it to work with a few hardware set ups.

You're whole argument is based on the idea that Apple is somehow keeping a monopoly on computer OSes...they aren't. They make a full package from start to finish. If you don't like it, cool, Linux and Windows works too.
 
I see two types of people supporting Apple's position on here as no other types make any logical sense.

You really aren't getting it are you? Nothing makes sense to you regarding intellectual property rights because you do not believe in individual property rights (socialism).

Thanks for the entertaining explanation of the liberal mind. What a train wreck:cool:
 
... Political rant ...

99% of that had nothing to do with the conversation. So, you believe that little corporations should be able to steal from the "big guys" so they can meet your interests. What if you were the "big guy"? Thanks for reinforcing the Marxist point of view. Power to the proletariat!!! People that work hard and spend several years and millions of dollars to develop something should give it to the people! Talk about greed.

And your rant about microsoft tying with lenovo ... That would probably be fine and legal IF microsoft bought lenovo first and started selling them as one product. Just like Apple does.

EDIT: And before you start another rant accusing me of loving the corporations: I believe that everyone should work for everything they get, those that are lazy will have nothing, because they didn't work to earn anything - sucks to be them, but I'm not going to drag anyone behind me so they can have a free ride.
 
Seriously...I believe some people here have screwed up ideas about ownership.

OSX is an Apple product created by the company to run their hardware. No one has the right to tell Apple what to do with it except Apple.

If say Apple has had enough and just decided to shut OSX down, what will Psystar use on its system? What can you ask Apple to open up if the product does not exist anymore.

Backing up Psystar with the hope this will force Apple to open up OS X is ridiculous and mostly self-serving. What Psystar has done is wrong as thy have infringed the right of the author of OSX an using the brand Apple created to benefit itself.
 
Your concept of 'right' and wrong in this context could well need examination. It will certainly be challenged in relation to the Apple's EULA.

First of all, keeping Mac OS X an an operating system that can only be 'legally' loaded and operated on Mac may not be right at all. It almost certainly isn't illegal. Apple's EULA may not stand the legal test. It may not be 'right' for users and it might not even be 'right' for Apple.

Take the guys I know who have always hated Apple - forever. Several build their own computers. Most play games. Several of them have just bought an iPhone. All would load Mac OS X onto a PC if they could, and dual boot into Linux and Windows.

What these guys do/want today, the world will want tomorrow.

And there are a few very good reasons why this should happen:

Windows XP is eight years old.

Windows Vista is crap.

Any Windows Vista replacement is probably ten years away from being a stable reality.

The market won't wait.

Apple computers are too expensive for the average user.

Okay, remember how at the Intel announcement Steve revealed that Mac OS X had been secretly developed to run on Intel chips from day one? I suspect they didn't stop there.

I also suspect the plan has always been to win the OS war - but only when MS is at its weakest. We are heading that way really fast.

The future is in the cloud. All we'll need is a device, an OS and a net connection. Make that a reliable OS, a safe browser and a net connection. No-one is going to entrust all our files to IE!

Expect to see an OS war. Expect to see Apple take a massive share.

Now stop going round in circles and start thinking outside this little box called the Psystar case. It's much, much bigger than that.


Seriously...I believe some people here have screwed up ideas about ownership.

OSX is an Apple product created by the company to run their hardware. No one has the right to tell Apple what to do with it except Apple.

If say Apple has had enough and just decided to shut OSX down, what will Psystar use on its system? What can you ask Apple to open up if the product does not exist anymore.

Backing up Psystar with the hope this will force Apple to open up OS X is ridiculous and mostly self-serving. What Psystar has done is wrong as thy have infringed the right of the author of OSX an using the brand Apple created to benefit itself.
 
Your concept of 'right' and wrong in this context could well need examination. It will certainly be challenged in relation to the Apple's EULA.

First of all, keeping Mac OS X an an operating system that can only be 'legally' loaded and operated on Mac may not be right at all. It almost certainly isn't illegal. Apple's EULA may not stand the legal test. It may not be 'right' for users and it might not even be 'right' for Apple.

Take the guys I know who have always hated Apple - forever. Several build their own computers. Most play games. Several of them have just bought an iPhone. All would load Mac OS X onto a PC if they could, and dual boot into Linux and Windows.

What these guys do/want today, the world will want tomorrow.

And there are a few very good reasons why this should happen:

Windows XP is eight years old.

Windows Vista is crap.

Any Windows Vista replacement is probably ten years away from being a stable reality.

The market won't wait.

Apple computers are too expensive for the average user.

Okay, remember how at the Intel announcement Steve revealed that Mac OS X had been secretly developed to run on Intel chips from day one? I suspect they didn't stop there.

I also suspect the plan has always been to win the OS war - but only when MS is at its weakest. We are heading that way really fast.

The future is in the cloud. All we'll need is a device, an OS and a net connection. Make that a reliable OS, a safe browser and a net connection. No-one is going to entrust all our files to IE!

Expect to see an OS war. Expect to see Apple take a massive share.

Now stop going round in circles and start thinking outside this little box called the Psystar case. It's much, much bigger than that.

wait what? is this the script from the new terminator movie?
 
This has nothing to do with politics or political views. It's frankly narrow-minded and not a little infantile to suggest it is.

This is about marketing. And by marketing, I don't mean sales and advertising. Sure, sales and advertising are part of marketing, but the discipline has at its heart the study of what individuals within markets actually want.

And again, not specifically what products they want - Apple have proved that often we don't know what products we want until we see them. See the iPod. We have needs that can be satisfied just a bit, not at all or amazingly.

For a long time we've had products that satisfied us just a bit - lots of them - all different. The products that satisfied not at all... simply disappeared. Some of the manufacturers that made these average products also disappeared.

Now the product manufacturers that make the products that satisfy just a bit, like Nokia and Sony Ericsson who've been making mobile phones forever but failed to address the keyboard and internet access issues, have been taught by Apple how to make a really good phone that satisfies a lot more of our needs - and does so very well.

So, in the case of what the market wants in relation to this discussion, it can be expressed very simply as "SOMETHING BETTER, SAFER, MORE RELIABLE THAN WINDOWS PLEASE". This in turn can be summed up as the democratisation of operating systems - a situation where we have a choice.

Choice isn't political. It may involve free expression. It may involve a revolution, or several revolutions. But revolution just means a turning point in history. And some things are inevitable, and the smart money always backs the flow of the tide. I suspect the tide is with a choice to load Mac OS X on any computer.

I love Mac OS X. I love Apple products. But if the market wants, and frankly needs a better OS alternative to Windows, Apple would be foolish not to go for it.


99% of that had nothing to do with the conversation. So, you believe that little corporations should be able to steal from the "big guys" so they can meet your interests. What if you were the "big guy"? Thanks for reinforcing the Marxist point of view. Power to the proletariat!!! People that work hard and spend several years and millions of dollars to develop something should give it to the people! Talk about greed.

And your rant about microsoft tying with lenovo ... That would probably be fine and legal IF microsoft bought lenovo first and started selling them as one product. Just like Apple does.

EDIT: And before you start another rant accusing me of loving the corporations: I believe that everyone should work for everything they get, those that are lazy will have nothing, because they didn't work to earn anything - sucks to be them, but I'm not going to drag anyone behind me so they can have a free ride.
 
You really aren't getting it are you? Nothing makes sense to you regarding intellectual property rights because you do not believe in individual property rights (socialism).

Thanks for the entertaining explanation of the liberal mind. What a train wreck:cool:

How is it that you say I do not believe in individual property rights when my entire argument is that it's none of Apple's business what I do with their software after I purchase it or Sony's business after I buy a Columbia label CD? Frankly, if I want to rip a CD into iTunes or make a backup CD to play in the car, that's MY business, not the government's business or the record company's business. I believe in some socialistic ideals (a library is a form of socialism), but I'm hardly a socialist. Canada is more socialist than the U.S., but they aren't a socialist country by definition either. They have socialistic medicine. Frankly, I think that's a good thing. No one should be without health care in this country. But whether Apple should compete fairly is a Capitalist question if there ever was one.

robert.j.strain said:
People that work hard and spend several years and millions of dollars to develop something should give it to the people! Talk about greed.

Perhaps you should look up greed and Capitalism as they go hand-in-hand. Socialism is the opposite of greed. It's about doing what's best for everyone. Most countries are not purely one economic system or the other but have some elements of both. But destroying consumer rights and promoting corporate control is all about greed. I talked about buying OS X, not copying it. Apple would still get their fair share. But even Capitalism demands an open free market and Apple is all about a closed market and thus a monopoly on hardware for OS X. I really don't understand why some of you can't comprehend that. You seem to think OS X is embedded or something. It's not. It's sold in full retail form at large markets like Best Buy and it works on most computer hardware out there with only a few adjustments to bypass Apple's artificial tying checks, etc. If you can buy it and you can install it, you should be allowed to do so. It should be NONE OF APPLE'S BUSINESS what I do with their software once I buy it just as what I write using Microsoft Office is none of Microsoft's business once I buy it. How you use software is a privacy matter. Frankly, the entire issue of Apple's suspect licensing agreements could be ruled in the consumer's favor by that merit alone. Plenty of other things have been struck down by the Supreme Court under the right to privacy.

Show me one other major operating system vendor that limits their operating system artificially to one set of hardware. It doesn't exist. Everyone else competes in the same hardware market. Apple does too except that it only accepts operating systems in one direction. They clearly make most of their money from selling overvalued hardware and they can do it ONLY because they don't have to compete with ANYONE ELSE'S hardware. They manage that by making you buy their hardware when the only thing you want to buy from them is OS X. Arguments that someone wouldn't be willing to pay more for OS X are ridiculous given I can buy a top notch gaming system for $800-1200. Even if I had to pay $499 for OS X (beyond any of Microsoft's packages), I'd still be $500-1200 less than a customized top-end iMac and/or Mac Pro AND I'd have a better graphics card. Apple needs to compete fairly or it should be fined daily until it does. Fair competition is a Capitalist doctrine, BTW, not a socialist one. Frankly, I don't think you'd have a hard time these days finding support for governmental re-regulation of things like utilities and fuel in the U.S. The Republicans started deregulating everything with Reagan and look where it's all got us. Utilities like Electricity have often nearly doubled overnight when deregulated. That's because they want to make money. Regulated industries are limited to at-cost or set profit levels. In other words, you don't have to be a Marxist to want FAIRNESS. And FAIRNESS is the only thing I want to see in regards to Apple and OS X.

Companies like Apple and Exxon are making record profits at the consumer's expense. You don't make record profits and claim fairness in the same breath. How is Apple making record profits? It makes most of its money from its computers and they don't compete with anyone because there are no other computers for the OS X market and this whole thread is about a company that tried to stop them from monopolizing that market. They purchased legitimate retail copies of OS X. Apple got their share. That's not good enough for Apple. They want it all and they don't want to compete to get it and I say that's wrong.

G58 said:
This has nothing to do with politics or political views. It's frankly narrow-minded and not a little infantile to suggest it is.

It has to do with ECONOMIC VIEWS and given Republicans are pro-monopoly and pro-corporation it then falls into political views. I would bet most of the people here that are not fanboys and are dead against Apple having to compete their hardware with other vendors for the OS X market are Republicans. It's simply how they think or they would not be Republicans in the first place as pro-corporations and their rights versus consumer rights IS the Republican agenda in a nutshell. To suggest is isn't is to not comprehend politics.
 
Show me one other major operating system vendor that limits their operating system artificially to one set of hardware. It doesn't exist.

It does (or let's say, it did): Atari Computers used their TOS, than AMIGA had their Amiga Workbench, Nokia has Symbian. Do you remember Silicon Graphics - SGI? They had IRIX (of course there were some products from them using Windows NT 4). Or let's not forget about BeOS. Firstly, strictly developed for the BeBox, than, later it was "opened up" for x86 and PPC.

But anyway, i fully agree with your post.
 
This has nothing to do with politics or political views. It's frankly narrow-minded and not a little infantile to suggest it is.

All of this is political. It is hard for me to find any example of something like this that is not political. Everything we do, even some of the smallest things in our day to day lives, is political whether we realize it or not.
 
How is it that you say I do not believe in individual property rights when my entire argument is that it's none of Apple's business what I do with their software after I purchase it or Sony's business after I buy a Columbia label CD? Frankly, if I want to rip a CD into iTunes or make a backup CD to play in the car, that's MY business, not the government's business or the record company's business.

It's not me saying it, its you. Take a look at your posts here. Pretty much every one says Apple (owned by individuals) has no right to control or market its products as they see fit and that others have every right to modify them to their own ends without approval, license or payment to Apple. If it quacks it must be a duck.

Apple does not appear to have a problem with installing OS X on a computer you built. They do have a problem with Psystar modifying OS X it and installing it on computers that they sell. They also modify any updates that are released by Apple to prevent the clone from ceasing to work.
 
I don't think Microsoft is nearly as vulnerable - nor the market as desperate for OS X - as some wish to believe...

Never forget that "Software Sells Systems".

Windows 7, rather then being a ground-up rebuild of as OS X was of OS 9, will now instead be "Windows Vista OSR2" and will likely ship within 10 months, not 10 years.

And do not forget that every Wintel PC sold today has Windows Vista - either installed on the computer as the OS or as a license sold in conjunction with an installed copy of Windows XP. So as Microsoft improves Vista via Service Packs, all the user has to do is install the Vista media that shipped along with XP for their PC. There is no extra charge for them to go to Vista from XP.

Businesses, who are the greatest holdouts to Vista, will eventually migrate to it because they have no choice and since they've already paid for it, the only real costs are training their support staff (who likely are already experimenting with it, themselves).



So now let's look at OS X. OS X is a great OS, but again, software sells systems. The number of applications for OS X is a pittance compared to those sold for Windows. Yes, most OS X applications are coded exceptionally well and offer exceptional performance, but Windows offers sheer variety. So for people who make the move to OS X, they need to replace their existing application base, which is not inexpensive, as well as hope that all of their applications have an OS X equivalent.

And you'd be surprised how much of the business world runs on Microsoft Access. And Access isn't available in OS X. And it is just not Access. PeopleSoft's "fat client" (not the web client, which does work with Mac Safari) won't run under OS X. Nor will Crystal Reports. And I am sure there are many others. So right there, a great number of companies are not going to migrate to OS X because many of their core Line of Business applications will not run.

Sure, they could launch Windows under a VM, but that means they need more powerful computers which negates some (if not all) of the cost savings from not having to run OS X on an Apple Mac. And if they spent most of their time in a Windows-only LOB application, well why not just keep running Windows?

And beyond the software, what of the hardware? Windows supports thousands, if not tens of thousands of peripherals going back, in some cases, a decade or more. OS X does not begin to have that level of hardware support. And many companies, while they would be happy to support their current hardware with OS X drivers, are likely not going to be interested in supporting "legacy" hardware still in use in people's homes and in corporations.



And the biggest hurdle will, of course, be price. Sure, OS X is cheap compared to Windows, but Windows is "free" with Wintel PCs just like OS X is "free" with Macs. And with Microsoft's bundling deals with all of the major Wintel PC manufacturers, Microsoft can adjust the price to help keep OS X out just as they have to keep Linux at bay. Also, those deals can make it more expensive to offer a non-Windows OS so if you go to buy an HP and it's $999 with Windows and $1199 with OS X, how many people will save the $200?

And while OS X is a $70 cheaper then a retail Windows upgrade, Microsoft can match it or even undercut it, thanks to all the bundling deals. So Microsoft can afford to lose money on the retail upgrade market by making it up in the bundling market. So if Windows Vista Ultimate becomes the only version of Vista and is $99 for an upgrade and OS X is $129, a lot of folks will choose Vista because it is cheaper and because it is Windows.
 
It does (or let's say, it did): Atari Computers used their TOS, than AMIGA had their Amiga Workbench, Nokia has Symbian. Do you remember Silicon Graphics - SGI? They had IRIX (of course there were some products from them using Windows NT 4). Or let's not forget about BeOS. Firstly, strictly developed for the BeBox, than, later it was "opened up" for x86 and PPC.

But anyway, i fully agree with your post.

That's true, but then the Amiga and AtariST and I'm guessing SGI also had fairly unique hardware. It wasn't just a matter of bypassing a security check and presto, it would run on their competitor's hardware. That was also somewhat true of the Mac of the day, but that didn't stop programmers from making Mac emulator interfaces to make it run (e.g. Shapeshifter) or even ones for the AtariST. As long as there's software unique to a given platform OR in the Mac's current case, a vastly more stable environment from which you can then launch other virtual operating systems, there's going to be a desire to run those operating systems on your current hardware. Who wants to buy a whole new machine if you can boot another OS on your current one? I run an Amiga emulator on both my Mac and my PC. It lets me run my old Amiga games, access my old word processor documents, etc. and is a whole lot of nostalgia as well.

To run Shapeshifter, all you needed was real Mac roms dumped (many retailers sold them for you) and a copy of MacOS 8 I believe. It was fairly common at the time. Several Amiga models also had "bridgeboards" to run MS-Dos and even Windows 3.1 on them. True, those were more like a computer on a card, but you could share resources quite easily and use one machine and monitor between the two.

Today we have the concept of the Virtual OS. Products from VMWare let you run virtually any Intel based OS out there on your machine. The GLARING exception is the Mac, which isn't allowed to be virtualized. It's the ONLY one that isn't allowed. Apparently, VMWare is scared of Apple suing them also. Several vocal people on here clearly support those decisions. Some of us do not.

CWallace said:
And beyond the software, what of the hardware? Windows supports thousands, if not tens of thousands of peripherals going back, in some cases, a decade or more. OS X does not begin to have that level of hardware support. And many companies, while they would be happy to support their current hardware with OS X drivers, are likely not going to be interested in supporting "legacy" hardware still in use in people's homes and in corporations.

I don't believe anyone was suggesting they should have to try and support those devices. In fact, I'd be perfectly happy if I could simply buy a machine that only supported the drivers Apple has already made with the possible exception of Video drivers where it's clear that Windows and Linux have a distinct advantage in that they get direct updates of video drivers from ATI and NVidia whereas Apple's drivers for such devices seem to just sit there.

For example, I just installed an update to NeverWinter Nights on my XP machine. I started the game up and it was suddenly choppy feeling with the 3D. I rebooted and tried again and no dice. I looked for any mention of such a bug and found a lot of people had the same problem. Apparently, updating to newer NVidia drivers fixed it for many people. I updated my video drivers which were less than 6 months old for my 7900GS and it went from 1.69 to 1.75 and sure enough, it's smooth as silk again. I've got an ATI 9800 Pro for my PowerMac 1.8GHz. It's clear the video drivers haven't been updated since shortly after the card first came out. They are around 4 years old. When I go from Tiger to Leopard, I lose about 40% of my video card's speed rating. Apple has since updated the drivers for a few newer cards it still actually sells and they appear to be doing better in Leopard now. But this card, which is supposedly fully supported under Leopard runs much slower than in Leopard, making certain games run much slower and watching certain videos that are nearly smooth in Tiger (e.g. 720P) are unwatchable in Leopard. Now they've announced Snow Leopard which is supposed to be mostly bug fixes and speed optimizations and most people seem to think PowerPC support will be dropped entirely. I doubt Leopard will ever run as fast as Tiger here (well the CPU scores are HIGHER under Leopard, but that's about the only thing that is; my Sata hard drives run 40% faster in Tiger, video is almost 90% faster, etc. and my system is well within Leopard Specs with a 1.8GHz 7448, 1.5GB of ram, all Sata hard drives, USB 2.0, etc.). If NVidia and ATI were providing drivers directly, I believe Leopard would already be running as fast as Tiger in video scores.

The problem I've read about is that Apple won't give enough information to let a 3rd party company do anything on a core level. One company I read about wants to make a USB 2.0 adapter to act like a 2nd graphics output for things like the Macbook which only have one head. They had to reverse engineer EVERYTHING to just get it to work period and it runs at less than half the speed of their Windows drivers because Apple will not cooperate. They're probably afraid more people will buy the Macbook instead of the MBP or something so once again there's a conflict of interests between the OS and the hardware ONLY because Apple does BOTH and wants to corner all the sales; they have a history of releasing competing products that work better than a 3rd party software or device can because they have information that they do not. When Microsoft is taken to court on similar charges, they have been FORCED to provide more OS information to 3rd parties so they can compete on a more even level. I simply do not see why the same would not be true of Apple if similarly challenged. Why would the courts EVER rule that way? I say it's because those are DIFFERENT MARKETS. OS X competes as an operating system, not as a video card. People seem to think Apple should be allowed to do anything they want but they ignore the fact that Apple exists in a community and communities have RULES like FAIR COMPETITION.

When you write a book and publish it, you have given up certain rights that you had when you had NOT published it. If you write something and keep it to yourself, it's yours to do anything you wish with. When you publish it, you are agreeing to follow certain rules within a country and even the world. Copyright law states your book will become public domain x amount of years after your death and there isn't a thing in the world you can do about it except NOT publish it to avoid that happening (short of what corporations like Disney are trying to do to get the laws changed to extend copyrights to infinity which is wrong, IMO). If you do not want it to EVER be public domain, then you CANNOT publish it. Do any of you on here understand that basic concept? When a company becomes a corporation it agrees to follow new rules that did not apply when it was not a corporation. You no longer OWN the company. It's put up on a stock exchange and people are publicly allowed to buy shares in your company. You have to follow certain rules to be incorporated in the USA. You are NOT given verbatim RIGHTS to do anything and everything you want. You don't even have unlimited rights when you're not a publicly traded company. You are responsible to a country's laws. If that country says you have to compete fairly and openly to do business here then that's what you have to do. If you don't like it, go move to a different country! (How's that for a stick in the old "Go buy Windows" argument you like to throw in my face, eh?)

The question here is whether Apple is violating Anti-Trust laws which forbid a company to do certain things that allow it to corner a given market and allows no fair competition between it and others wishing to compete in that same market. It all comes down to whether OS X is a separate market from the hardware it runs on. Will it run on anyone else's non-propriety hardware without artificial tying? The answer is obviously NO these days. Whatever it might have had in the PPC days, it publicly gave up when it decided to buy off-the-shelf hardware from the generic clone market. Its hardware is not generic in nature and nothing special what-so-ever save pretty cases put around it. By moving to Intel and creating Boot Camp, it's gained MASSIVE and I mean MASSIVE new sales opportunities because suddenly people that would have NEVER considered a Mac can now take a hard look because they don't have give up anything to use a Mac. They can still run Windows software and with Apple's advocated Parallels and Fusion, you can even run them at the same time using virtualization. But does this huge new market potential not come at a cost??? Apple is now using the same hardware as everyone else. They gained a new market but they ALSO became a PART of that same market. Thus they are now competing with the SAME HARDWARE as other Intel vendors. But here's where things get sticky because Apple wants to have their cake and eat it too. They don't WANT to compete with those vendors! They want to pretend they're still using somewhat unique hardware, but they are not. What they gain in market share, they also lose in uniqueness. So what some of us are saying is that if you're going to compete with the same hardware, then you have to follow the rules of that market and actually COMPETE not monopolize artificially by giving your hardware something you won't give to other hardware because that is not an even playing field. You or Apple may not LIKE that, but those are the rules laid out by anti-trust laws and fair competition. Like it or not, Apple is competing against the hardware of Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc. And if they're competing against their hardware, then that hardware needs to do the same things. And it DOES the same things except Apple is using a DIFFERENT market (its Operating System market) to artificially leverage sales of its hardware compared to competitors. That is illegal TYING. It was tying before in the PPC days too, but it was never challenged because no one else was making that same hardware before and wanting to run their OS.

Now if this results in Apple being FORCED to license their OS for sale to that market, that's one thing. That's a software ruling to break the tying effect that is illegal. But given Apple is already selling the complete non-upgrade version of the OS by itself in places like Best Buy, the court could very well rule that they are already competing in that market and they simply lose their case against Pystar, basically rendering their license forbidding installation on non-Apple hardware null and void, in which case Apple would lose their ability to make licensing monies on top of having to let other hardware vendors ship with OS X. Thus, Apple is being very foolish to sue one tiny company for shipping clones with OS X because it is entirely possible they could open the floodgates for Dell, HP and others if they lose this case and they very COULD lose it for the above reasons. If the judge sees hardware and software as two distinct markets, then it IS illegal tying and Apple WILL lose. Well, it's two separate markets for EVERYONE ELSE out there using the same hardware and a variety of operating systems, ALL of which now run on Apple's hardware too and Psystar has demonstrated that OS X will INDEED run on generic hardware by other people once the artificial security checks are bypassed. Now I don't know about you guys; you seem to living in some fantasy world where Apple is always right and always wins court cases, but if I were a part of the board of Apple, I'd be wetting my pants right now because they just dug their own grave. What I stated is all a competent judge needs to decide the case. We already know tying is illegal. It's already been set by precedent. The only question is whether the OS and hardware are separate entities and not unique as they once might have been since moving to the generic Intel market. That is EASILY PROVEN. Thus, any competent judge will rule against Apple. Apple might win the battle in a charge that Psystar modified the OS, but they will LOSE the WAR for said reasons. I'd expect Dell Clones with OS X by Christmas 1999.
 
This has nothing to do with politics or political views. It's frankly narrow-minded and not a little infantile to suggest it is.

This is about marketing. And by marketing, I don't mean sales and advertising. Sure, sales and advertising are part of marketing, but the discipline has at its heart the study of what individuals within markets actually want.

And again, not specifically what products they want - Apple have proved that often we don't know what products we want until we see them. See the iPod. We have needs that can be satisfied just a bit, not at all or amazingly.

For a long time we've had products that satisfied us just a bit - lots of them - all different. The products that satisfied not at all... simply disappeared. Some of the manufacturers that made these average products also disappeared.

Now the product manufacturers that make the products that satisfy just a bit, like Nokia and Sony Ericsson who've been making mobile phones forever but failed to address the keyboard and internet access issues, have been taught by Apple how to make a really good phone that satisfies a lot more of our needs - and does so very well.

So, in the case of what the market wants in relation to this discussion, it can be expressed very simply as "SOMETHING BETTER, SAFER, MORE RELIABLE THAN WINDOWS PLEASE". This in turn can be summed up as the democratisation of operating systems - a situation where we have a choice.

Choice isn't political. It may involve free expression. It may involve a revolution, or several revolutions. But revolution just means a turning point in history. And some things are inevitable, and the smart money always backs the flow of the tide. I suspect the tide is with a choice to load Mac OS X on any computer.

I love Mac OS X. I love Apple products. But if the market wants, and frankly needs a better OS alternative to Windows, Apple would be foolish not to go for it.


99% of that had nothing to do with the conversation. So, you believe that little corporations should be able to steal from the "big guys" so they can meet your interests. What if you were the "big guy"? Thanks for reinforcing the Marxist point of view. Power to the proletariat!!! People that work hard and spend several years and millions of dollars to develop something should give it to the people! Talk about greed.

And your rant about microsoft tying with lenovo ... That would probably be fine and legal IF microsoft bought lenovo first and started selling them as one product. Just like Apple does.

EDIT: And before you start another rant accusing me of loving the corporations: I believe that everyone should work for everything they get, those that are lazy will have nothing, because they didn't work to earn anything - sucks to be them, but I'm not going to drag anyone behind me so they can have a free ride.
 
Apple is playing by fair competition rules, might not like them.

But they don't steal another company's intellectual property intentionally just to push their product in their new market.

Might think that Apple has a monopoly on the iPhone, but they did create a phone, play around with the OS, and find a way to enter a 20+year old market with something new.

Something that consumers, want ...

Psystar, decided that method was too expensive, didn't find any need to create anything.

Downloaded stuff off the internet, and went into the clone business.

Heck, Amiga OS 4.0, BeOS, and others are sitting there is you really want to compete fairly.

Likely if you bought Amiga OS 4.0 and ported it to Intel, you are going to lock your machine to Amiga ROMs even if the machine isn't any different than a regular PC -- because you are making significant margin on the HW, which is what if paying for you OS development when you are selling single digit % points of the PC market.
 
Last I heard/read, Psystar's deadline to respond to Apple's complaint was extended to August 18 (tomorrow). Their response could be interesting, but then again it may just end up being more of the same BS and saber rattling.
 
A few points...

The demand for OS X (if there is at all) on a PC cannot be justified by supporting the unfair business practice of Psystar. Taking a product created by the competitor and modifying it for their own use is cannot be condoned. Its stealing and it is wrong. They did not even recognise the people behind OSX86 so these guys have no regard for anybody but their own.

Again, if a demand for OSX on cheaper hardware exists and Apple deems it to be an attractive market then expect Apple (a maverick of a company who always turn the heads of everyone with their products) to come up with an implementation of what the people want, but do not expect it to be done the way you like it.

Apple will never give up the end-to-end solution that led them to their success, even Ballmer recognises this and wants Microsoft to do the same approach. As have been said, if it is not broke don't fix it.

About the buying thing. Purchasing a copy of OSX does buy you ownerhip the software, you are merely granted the right to use it. It is unfair you say? No Apple keeps on giving you updates, maintaining and enhancing the stability of the product licensed to you. If you lose a copy the copy of your software, you can ask Apple to give you another copy as long as you have the license to run it. Its the same with music, ownership of this artwork does not go with the purchaser of the license.

Licensing is not unfair practice, piracy is.

Restricting a proprietary product on a proprietary hardware is not unfair. Any author has full rights to whatever he has created. He deserves to be paid for it if he wants to because he spent time and resources on it. Using an original work created by other for one's benefit is wrong. That is stealing.

Apple is a huge company and you are a single person. How could you ever think that your ideas, limited resources and knowledge will be superior to an entire R&D team. How arrogant.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.