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But if you try to sell remixes you created from a copyrighted CD, that IS illegal and you could get busted for it.

not totally true. the key is 'without asking permission'.

I can go to the bands etc and say that I'm a DJ or whatever and I made some mixes of their stuff and I think it would sell and what terms would they have for me to do this. and if the band said sure but I have to split the money 50-50 then we sign a contract and I'm in the clear.

from the sounds of it Psystar didn't ask, probably because they knew the answer would be no. so they can play the whole 'apple didn't say we could not' game but then again Apple didn't say yes either.
 
from the sounds of it Psystar didn't ask, probably because they knew the answer would be no. so they can play the whole 'apple didn't say we could not' game but then again Apple didn't say yes either.

Apple didn't have to specifically say no to Psystar - the terms of the EULA clearly state Apple's position on running OS X on a computer other then one branded by Apple.

Psystar chose to take the position that Apple saying "no" via the EULA was irrelevant, so Apple said "no" again through the filing of this lawsuit against them.
 
Didn't see this posted, but here is an update:

"Psystar and Apple have agreed to alternative dispute resolution to keep the public eye away from their disagreements, and to reduce legal costs. This will eliminate any rulings that would set a precedent over Psystar's claim that Apple is violating anti-trust laws by tying Mac OS X to only their hardware and thus creating a monopoly. This could result in a profit for Psystar's business, but eliminate their line of open-computing Mac-compatible PCs. On the other hand, what's to stop a similar company from doing the same thing?"

http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/10/19/1511231&from=rss

I read the same thing on yahoo.com, but I can't find the article.....
 
As to the question of what stops a similar company from doing what Psystar wanted to do - being sued by Apple, as well.

If enough companies try and push it, it will end up being in Apple's interests to actually take it all the way through trial (and appeal, if either side deems it necessary) just to either put an end to it or force them to license it.
 
Didn't see this posted, but here is an update:

"Psystar and Apple have agreed to alternative dispute resolution to keep the public eye away from their disagreements, and to reduce legal costs. This will eliminate any rulings that would set a precedent over Psystar's claim that Apple is violating anti-trust laws by tying Mac OS X to only their hardware and thus creating a monopoly. T

i suspect that Apple agreed to let Psystar leave their sold computers out there (originally they wanted all OpenMacs recalled which would have destroyed the company) in return for a 'no judgment' on the issue of a monopoly. which is really bogus anyway cause the market is computer hardware and computer software NOT "Apple computers" (they are simply another type of computer not a thing unto themselves) so Apple would have won. And even if there were any grey areas it wouldn't excuse Psystar's violation in copying the software without permission and then pulling this suit stunt when they got caught.
 
What software has Psystar copied from Apple?

none

psystar sells osx along with computers that have been proven to run osx by the hackintosh community

the issue is does psystar have the right to
1) sell osx preloaded even though they are selling a licesene from osx
2) thats pretty much it as you can sell computers just fine lol
 
the issue is does psystar have the right to
1) sell osx preloaded even though they are selling a licesene from osx

not under the current license, which is for end users only. not for resellers which is what they are acting as when they buy the software and then sell it again bundled with their software (and also possibly modify so it will work with their machine)

that's the crux of their game. they think the rule is stupid so instead of filing a lawsuit saying it is stupid and a monopoly act and getting the courts to tell Apple they have to let clones exist, they knowingly broke the rule and when caught are using a "you shouldn't punish us for breaking what we think is a stupid rule" defense.
 
not under the current license, which is for end users only. not for resellers which is what they are acting as when they buy the software and then sell it again bundled with their software (and also possibly modify so it will work with their machine)

that's the crux of their game. they think the rule is stupid so instead of filing a lawsuit saying it is stupid and a monopoly act and getting the courts to tell Apple they have to let clones exist, they knowingly broke the rule and when caught are using a "you shouldn't punish us for breaking what we think is a stupid rule" defense.

Maybe you could explain how a startup company with little to no money should 'file a lawsuit' first before they even have a product to sell? I don't just wake up one day and decide I'm going to go sue Apple for the right to install a retail copy of OS X on a clone business I don't even have yet. I'd need the clone business to finance the lawsuit and even then I'm a tiny fish dealing with a whale. Most grey area laws in most countries ARE changed by breaking the law first and then getting it ruled on in court. Even the DMCA is intentionally vague so that courts could spell it out at a later date. Technology is constantly changing so they knew a precise law would be worked around and likewise specifying things too strictly would invite revocation. Allowing the courts to determine the extent leaves things hazy, just like how the big companies like.

It costs Apple almost nothing to say "we can do whatever we want" type clauses like that one about not installing OS X on non-Apple branded hardware. But that doesn't mean it's legal to do so. If that action is determined to be willfully anti-competitive and can be struck down. More than a few of us think it's MORE than just a little anti-competitive. They want to monopolize the hardware market for their operating system. That's not fair or free trade. It's a closed system. People want to say it's not a monopoly because they are looking at OS X versus Windows, but if you already decided on OS X as your operating system, why should your hardware choices be limited to just Apple? It's the SAME hardware as what Dell, Lenovo, HP and others make. What gives Apple the right to tell you what hardware you're allowed to buy? Because they say so? Apple doesn't control my life. They will NOT control my life. It's MY BUSINESS what hardware I buy, not theirs. That's a privacy issue as far as I'm concerned and is protected by the Constitution. Imagine a condom company trying to tell me who I could sleep with in the bedroom! The fact they may own a brothel in Nevada shouldn't impact my choices any more than the fact Apple sells clone hardware should impact the choice of my operating system or vice versa.

Hardware and Software are independent of each other. The fact any clone hardware out there (that has driver support) can easily run OS X or Windows with minimal effort shows that hardware and software are independent of each other. Any ties are artificial by Apple and only designed to maximize their profits by actively trying to prevent all hardware competition for their operating system. A mac clone can run Windows, but Dell clone can't run OS X? Not true. They both can run each other's operating system, but Apple doesn't want competition from Dell so they simply forbid them to install OS X. Well gee, imagine if I sold ice cream and I forbade any dairy farms in the state to sell to anyone but me or told Giant Eagle if they carry my ice cream, they cannot carry anyone else's ice cream. Microsoft got into a lot of trouble when they told OEMs they could not install Netscape on their computers or else they'd lose their OEM license and would have to buy Windows retail. They did the same with forbidding Linux and all kinds of other anti-competitive behaviors. IT'S NO DIFFERENT WITH APPLE.

Apple is trying to thwart competition by disallowing hardware manufacturers to install their software on their hardware and not just any software, but the core of any computer, the operating system. Thus, they've also impact the software sales of other companies that make OS X software by actively preventing sales of OS X to many that might otherwise purchase it, but turn away due to disliking Apple hardware. So Apple not only loses a sale, but potentially all Mac software vendors have lost potential sales.

The only legal argument Apple has to win against someone like Psystar is to say it has the right to demand a monopoly of hardware for the OS X operating system and in a capitalist free and open market system, that just doesn't fly. It's illegal to actively engage in anti-competitive practices. Companies should COMPETE with each other for the consumer and society's benefit, not try to prevent competition, which stiles innovation and stagnates markets (in this case, look at all the holes in Apple's computer platforms that other companies could fill; look at Apple's ability to overprice their hardware because there is no other choices for OS X hardware). I'm sorry, but Psystar should have gone to court. Apple would lose hands down. They have a right to sell OS X or not to sell it. They don't have a right to tell me which hardware I can or cannot buy. It might be different if their OS was linked to propriety hardware (e.g. like the Amiga was), but nope, it runs happily on generic clone hardware once the bios is replaced with an EFI emulator or EFI hardware dongle. Imagine if Microsoft said Windows7 could only be installed on Dell hardware. The Justice Department would have them in court faster than you could say monopoly.
 
The only legal argument Apple has to win against someone like Psystar is to say it has the right to demand a monopoly of hardware for the OS X operating system and in a capitalist free and open market system, that just doesn't fly.


No matter how many times you repeat this mantra, that doesn't make it true.
 
No matter how many times you repeat this mantra, that doesn't make it true.

Well, if you look at case law, it is true. Have you read:

DigiDyne Corp. Vs. Data General ( 734 F.2d 1336 (9th circuit, 1984))?

In short the court said you can NOT tie your operating system to your hardware platform. 9th Circuit is in California.

This is exactly what Apple is doing.
 
I don't just wake up one day and decide I'm going to go sue Apple for the right to install a retail copy of OS X on a clone business I don't even have yet.

I doubt anyone woke up one day and decided to start up a business just to illegally clone Macs. So that doesn't hold up.

Hardware and Software are independent of each other. The fact any clone hardware out there (that has driver support) can easily run OS X or Windows with minimal effort shows that hardware and software are independent of each other.

THAT is what a court needs to decide. And that decision will determine whether there is a monopoly to create with the Apple Computer Market. Because right now the market is defined broadly enough that the Apple Computer System is just one of many Personal Computer Systems in the market and there is no monopoly by Apple.

There are lawyers that would take up the case with no upfront money if they actually believed there was grounds for a case. so your 'little company with no money' doesn't fly.

Microsoft got into a lot of trouble when they told OEMs they could not install Netscape on their computers or else they'd lose their OEM license and would have to buy Windows retail.

The courts ruled that operating system software and internet access software such as web browsers are two totally different things and one can't legally use one to force the other on anyone. it is NOT the same as the question of ties between hardware and OS software. To argue a similar case, Apple would have to forbid anyone to use Opera, Firefox etc.

by actively preventing sales of OS X to many that might otherwise purchase it, but turn away due to disliking Apple hardware.

being stupid and costing yourself potential profit is NOT a valid legal argument. nor is "they are costing other companies potential sales". Apple doesn't owe anything to the companies that make Mac compat software in that regards. these companies know the market they face. if they were that worried about profit, they would make software for Windows.

It's illegal to actively engage in anti-competitive practices.

yes it is. but the courts have not deemed that there is a unique market for the Apple Computer so the company has, at this point, done nothing wrong.


Apple would lose hands down. They have a right to sell OS X or not to sell it. They don't have a right to tell me which hardware I can or cannot buy. It might be different if their OS was linked to propriety hardware (e.g. like the Amiga was), but nope, it runs happily on generic clone hardware once the bios is replaced with an EFI emulator or EFI hardware dongle. Imagine if Microsoft said Windows7 could only be installed on Dell hardware. The Justice Department would have them in court faster than you could say monopoly.

We will see what the courts say. In the meantime, Apple has every right and Psystar doesn't.

Also, what's is amusing that that Psystar isn't just selling the hardware. There are reports that they are making folks buy the OS through them. So I can't just buy their hardware and load the copy of OSX that I have from my now dead computer on it. Why? Because they have to modify the software to make it work. So they aren't selling Mac OS X they are selling PsystarMac OS X. basically they have copied the software for their own use. Also a violation of the EULA and possibly copyright and other laws.

So now are you going to define them on that. Are you going to define Microsoft for basically copying all of the GUI of Mac OS X when they created Vista, just changing a few colors and a couple of names.
 
Well, if you look at case law, it is true. Have you read:

DigiDyne Corp. Vs. Data General ( 734 F.2d 1336 (9th circuit, 1984))?

In short the court said you can NOT tie your operating system to your hardware platform. 9th Circuit is in California.

This is exactly what Apple is doing.

it is NOT that simple. if you had continued reading the judgement you would see that a key factor was market. as in how much DG had and would prohibit competition in.

this was an issue with the Microsoft IE issue as well. Microsoft was using its strong market power to shove another product from another market down folks throats.

Apple does NOT have a strong market power unless the courts decide that the Mac Computer is its own market versus the general personal computer market that includes Windows systems, linux systems etc.
 
Well, if you look at case law, it is true. Have you read:

DigiDyne Corp. Vs. Data General ( 734 F.2d 1336 (9th circuit, 1984))?

In short the court said you can NOT tie your operating system to your hardware platform. 9th Circuit is in California.

This is exactly what Apple is doing.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=473&invol=908&friend=nytimes said:
Anticompetitive forcing only exists if consumers are forced to buy a tied product as a result of the [473 U.S. 908 , 909] sellers' market power, not simply because of the desirability of the package. Id., at 24-25, 104 S.Ct. at 1564-1565. The Court of Appeals looked to market power over "locked in" customers who had already purchased petitioner's wares, viewed the copyright on the operating system as creating a presumption of market power, and seemingly concluded that forcing power is sufficiently established to demonstrate per se antitrust liability if some buyers find the tying product unique and desirable.

It depends not on desirability of the package but the market power the company has.

The Court of Appeals looked to market power over "locked in" customers who had already purchased petitioner's wares, ...
The Apple devices you own are not Mac only; You can use your ipod and iphone on Windows computers too.
 
THAT is what a court needs to decide. And that decision will determine whether there is a monopoly to create with the Apple Computer Market.

It seems fairly obvious to me that a company that is ranking around #3 in total computer sales that does NOT even sell the Windows OS itself has a pretty sizable HARDWARE market "in general" compared to other hardware makers. The problem, you see, is that Apple is able to maintain that market status because no one else is allowed to run OS X on their otherwise nearly identical hardware. That means if you want to run OS X, you HAVE to buy your otherwise identical hardware from Apple. You cannot buy otherwise identical hardware from Dell. Thereby, it's is plainly obvious that Apple has NO HARDWARE COMPETITION WHAT-SO-EVER unless you are willing to consider that a customer would be willing to forgo using OS X simply to get better hardware selection or say a matte screen for the laptop.

The problem is that hardware preferences and operating preferences are two entirely different things! The idea that I would be willing to to run Windows instead of OS X just so I can have a matte screen or a Firewire port on my laptop sounds a bit absurd and that is because it IS a bit absurd. But just the same, I should not have to make that kind of a choice. Apple is trying to FORCE that choice just so that they can make 100% of the hardware sales for their Macintosh Operating System.

It's hard to say with a straight face that Apple is competing with Dell or Lenovo or others when they are selling hardware for entirely different operating systems, yet the absurdity comes in when you realize the only thing stopping Dell from running OS X is Apple's Eula, which essentially forbids competition.

So I'm not sure why you think it takes a judge to figure out that Apple is blatantly engaging in anti-competition measures when their own Eula makes it quite clear that is EXACTLY what they are doing. If their hardware were unique of they owned a patent on such unique parts, the incompatibilities would be understandable. But no such parts exist. A USB EFI device will make ANY clone hardware capable of installing OS X directly with no caveats what-so-ever. No parts of the operating system have to be modified. In effect, the OS X install disc cannot tell such a computer from a Mac Pro even.

Because right now the market is defined broadly enough that the Apple Computer System is just one of many Personal Computer Systems in the market and there is no monopoly by Apple.

There is no operating system monopoly by Apple. That is obvious. Windows controls 90% or more of the market. However, you don't have to be a monopoly in order to be actively anti-competitive. You only have prove a company is actively trying to stop competition and Apple's Eula blatantly prevents 100% of hardware competition for their operating system platform. So while they do not have a "monopoly" on the operating system market, they DO have a monopoly on ALL HARDWARE for their operating system. The fact you do not recognize that as a "market" does change the FACT they are engaging actively in anti-competitive hardware. The fact they can be the #3 personal computer maker and NOT sell a machine with the Windows operating system only shows how much money they are making by not having to compete with other hardware vendors as those vendors are simply "forbidden" from competing with Apple directly.

There are lawyers that would take up the case with no upfront money if they actually believed there was grounds for a case. so your 'little company with no money' doesn't fly.

I believe a law firm DID take up the case, but Apple sought to make a deal. Some say this means Psystar has lost, yet they continue to sell their clones and are now going to offer a laptop (probably with firewire!) soon. So I would not draw that conclusion until more details are known. It could simply mean a neutral arbitrator will decide the case instead. It is obvious why Apple would prefer that path. An arbitrator could allow Psystar to continue to make clones or force Apple to sell them a license to install the OS, but that would not be the same as a legal ruling in general, which is something Apple would definitely prefer to avoid assuming the ruling did NOT going in their favor as that would open the door to all Mac clones and given the past where clones typically were better and more reliable and even faster than Apple's own hardware for lower prices (read: Apple wouldn't get to soak its customers anymore), I'm sure they'd rather avoid that. Better to make a deal with one or two clone makers than have a half dozen or more. I'm sure they would prefer the arbitrator side with them regardless, though.

The courts ruled that operating system software and internet access software such as web browsers are two totally different things and one can't legally use one to force the other on anyone. it is NOT the same as the question of ties between hardware and OS software. To argue a similar case, Apple would have to forbid anyone to use Opera, Firefox etc.

Apple HAS forbid anyone to use Opera on OS X...on the iPhone. So I'm not sure that's the best place for your argument to go. It's becoming clear that Apple doesn't want ANY competition for anything it deems it can make a profit off of somehow itself. As for the other part, I would say if a court makes a distinction between an operating system and a browser (when the two are VERY VERY similar in many ways in today's operating systems), it's not going to have any trouble telling the difference between SOFTWARE and HARDWARE for goodness sake! They are INCREDIBLY DIFFERENT things and different markets to boot! That is simply not a stretch. I would call it a no-brainer even.

yes it is. but the courts have not deemed that there is a unique market for the Apple Computer so the company has, at this point, done nothing wrong.

We will see what the courts say. In the meantime, Apple has every right and Psystar doesn't.

I'm not sure there is a difference. Apple can file a lawsuit, but UNTIL the courts have their say, Apple cannot physically stop Psystar from selling clones or anything else. The whole point is this HAS to be decided in court. Given the apparent legal arrangements being made, it doesn't look like it actually will. Psystar probably thinks they have a better chance with an arbitrator since they do not have the deep pockets of Apple and Apple probably is worried about a legal mandate so an arbitrator means losing doesn't equate to a legal free-for-all like a court case would.

Also, what's is amusing that that Psystar isn't just selling the hardware. There are reports that they are making folks buy the OS through them. So I
can't just buy their hardware and load the copy of OSX that I have from my

I'm not sure what Psystar's current method of installing OS X is. I do know there are now devices available for a USB port that will essentially turn a motherboard's BIOS into EFI and thus OS X will install normally with no complaints and no software modifications what-so-ever. I also know there are software EFI emulators that can be installed that do not require modifying OS X what-so-ever to get it to install. My point is only that not knowing the specifics of Psystar, I can surmise that is plausible to install OS X without modifying it. As to whether Psystar will sell you a Windows system or hardware without OS X, they're in a better position to tell you that than I.
 
No, but they might be the company who shows that their traditional base isn't exactly pleased with their choices.
Look I understand a lot of you guys are not happy with Apple right now because of their choices lately but what Psystar is doing is not right. These guys aren't innovators, they are just a bunch of rip offs, I mean the blu-ray, that they are including in their computers can't even play them in OSX, what they are doing is not right and I don't think y'all should look at the as some sort of bright spot, my two cents.
 
Look I understand a lot of you guys are not happy with Apple right now because of their choices lately but what Psystar is doing is not right. These guys aren't innovators, they are just a bunch of rip offs, I mean the blu-ray, that they are including in their computers can't even play them in OSX, what they are doing is not right and I don't think y'all should look at the as some sort of bright spot, my two cents.

I don't, in fact I see the fact that Apple has allowed itself to become so distant from its core users that a company like Psystar is even considered an option to be a very dark spot. Its not like Apple would have to do much to get things back in balance either. Do a meaningful update to the Mini, add a lower end 2.0ghz 9400M based iMac for budget/education users, add a core i&/x58 version of the Mac Pro, and may exactly remember that the computers do more than just sit on a desk and look petty. A 15" (1280x800 vs 1440x900 in the MBP) replacement for the 14" iBook might be useful as well.
 
I don't, in fact I see the fact that Apple has allowed itself to become so distant from its core users that a company like Psystar is even considered an option to be a very dark spot. Its not like Apple would have to do much to get things back in balance either. Do a meaningful update to the Mini, add a lower end 2.0ghz 9400M based iMac for budget/education users, add a core i&/x58 version of the Mac Pro, and may exactly remember that the computers do more than just sit on a desk and look petty. A 15" (1280x800 vs 1440x900 in the MBP) replacement for the 14" iBook might be useful as well.
Yes it seems like Apple has a lot of holes in their lineup but I think they don't want to confuse their buyers with too many options, they want to keep things simple. I mean companies like Dell have so many options, that's because they sell to a bigger market than Apple does. I agree they need to update the mini, I think the upcoming macworld will focus on desktops and snow leopard so maybe you'll get your wish.
 
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