Apple Sues Tiger Leaks

[Yvan256]

Man, it says you're from Canada, but we're from different planets. I'm alpha crazy when it comes to new OSes. I NEED them like an addict needs.... stuff.

David

Well, I'm about the same for the new hardware (can't wait to see next eMac, "Pod micro", will Apple have LightScribe-enabled hardware/software, etc).

As opposed to you though, I don't mind not seeing the prototypes that never made it to the market.

I do agree that "stuff" is great. We need stuff.

 

[Rod Rod]

if apple were to sue they would sue people in america that have downloaded it, suing people in other countries is too much of a pain in the @ss.

That's almost true. However, the friendly folks at the Business Software Alliance have successfully won monetary damages from European pirates. Also, the BSA has a bounty program in the UK, where snitches may reap rewards for blowing the whistle on corrupt businesses. There is no such bounty program in the U.S.

 

[KrysBaz]

My point was that DOWNLOADING the beta equates to about the same harm as doing 60 mph in a 55 zone - not much.

With an increased stopping distance of around 20 feet, and the higher speed the impact 5mph can make can literally be the differance between life and death for the driver, and anybody else on the road.

Just because people download illegal software and distribute other peoples intelectual property does not make it OK.

If you hit someone at 60mph in a 55mph zone and kill them, will your defense be "well technically it's illegal but everybody does it?"
I'm sure a griebing realtive would thank you warmly for the sentiment.

 

[wildmac]

What, exactly, is wrong with downloading a pre-release, buggy Tiger that's not for sale, if I intend to buy the real Tiger when it comes out anyway?

It's the guy that posts it and is breaking the NDA, etc. But just for fun they could sue you too.

 

[Yvan256]

[...] I'm sure the MBU and the Windows team never chat amongest themselves. We can trust Microsoft to honor NDA's and such, Microsoft is all about fair competition.

Well, one thing's for sure: we all know that Microsoft is all about fair competition.

They do have a different team for OS X software development (maybe even different buildings, perhaps?), but as you say, how could Apple ever prove anything (unless MS came up with a feature Apple already has patented).

Bah, I never said I was a lawyer, so I'm only guessing/asking on these kinds of topics anyway.

 

[Yvan256]

That's almost true. However, the friendly folks at the Business Software Alliance have successfully won monetary damages from European pirates. Also, the BSA has a bounty program in the UK, where snitches may reap rewards for blowing the whistle on corrupt businesses. There is no such bounty program in the U.S.

Or in Canada. Man, I'd be rich and sending the competition into oblivion. ;-)

 

[apple2991]

Yeah, you missed my point, as well. I agreed that both are technically illegal - that's why I drew the parallel. Get it?

Now, that being said, what's the real world harm in someone doing 60 in a 55? Virtually none, so that's why you don't get a ticket 99% of the time for doing that. There's also no real world harm in me downloading the Tiger beta and installing it on my laptop for fun.

I agree that people posting the beta on the net is not in Apple's best interest, and the guys that did it were taking a gamble and it appears they lost. My point regarding such actions was that Apple suing these guys is not going to stop future versions from being posted. You may disagree, but take it from someone that's been downloading for a while, it's only gotten easier, not harder. Hence my disdain for the Apple Legal Cheerleading Team that has appeared in force in this thread.

The problem is, if you go 60 in a 55, sure there is no real harm done, but that is where it stops. When you watch a street of cars going by, you can tell who is speeding and who isn't. When you watch people downloading a Tiger release, however, you can't tell what their intent and purpose is. Are they, as you suggested, just curious? Or are they looking to write a Killer Virus (TM) which they will release soon after Tiger, thus giving Apple irreparably bad publicity, effectively killing all the building fanfare about Macs and Tiger? You can't tell.

My point is, the analogy is flawed because you are assuming an intent on the part of the downloader which may or may not be entirely inaccurate. Apple can't tell which downloaders might be acquiring the release for malicious purposes, so they try to be safer than sorry.

Maybe these guys are scapegoats for other members of ADC thining about doing the same thing.

 

[Laslo Panaflex]

My point is, the analogy is flawed because you are assuming an intent on the part of the downloader which may or may not be entirely inaccurate. Apple can't tell which downloaders might be acquiring the release for malicious purposes, so they try to be safer than sorry.

Give me a break . . .

If someone really wanted to write malicious software, they would get their hands on it, through bittorrent or not.

We all know that the real reason Apple is pissed is becuase they are charging $500 for a pre-release buggy OS, that 2,500 have downloaded for free, and to them that equates to lost $'s.

Apple is just using the NDA, and trade secrets (which they have every right to use) to cover up the fact that they are pissed that they aren't making any money. We all know that Apple is not having trade secrets exploited that they didn't exploit themselves by releasing Tiget to the public.

Whether are guys want to admit it or not, Apple has turned into a money hungry monster, I mean, they should just change their name to iPod computers . . .

Sorry to rant, it's just some people on these boards just jump to the side of Apple, and think that they are the nicest company and only mean good, when in fact they are like every other corporation on the planet, and the buttom line for them is to make money, and they are loosing money in ADC member ships.

Again, I am not saying that Apple doesn't have the right to do what they are doing, and that the people that leaked Tiger aren't in the wrong, it's just sometimes you have to pick your battles.

 

[tveric]

Apple can't tell which downloaders might be acquiring the release for malicious purposes, so they try to be safer than sorry.

Yeah, uh, didn't I say several times now that I agree it's not in Apple's best interest to have alpha copies of Tiger floating around on the net? I did? Oh yeah, I did. Thank you for agreeing with me.

My only point was, people were posting as if downloaders of the preview (like me) were guilty of some capital crime. I hope by now that I've made 2 points:

1) I haven't harmed Apple (me, just me, now) by downloading and installing a preview Tiger.

2) Apple suing those three guys (which I AGREE they have every right to do) will do nothing to stop future versions from getting into my hands, or any other curious parties.

 

[rdowns]

And those same competitors - they probably couldn't just buy a $500 developer membership and get a pre-release copy of Tiger anyway, right?

Again, please think before you post. Thank you, that is all.

Perhaps you should heed your own advice. If they bought a developer membership, they would be covered under the NDA.

 

[JCentourage]

A Thought to Reflect On...

All of this conversation about right, wrong, moral, immoral, legal, illegal... I am reminded that "Character is who you are when you think no one is watching."

 

[Yvan256]

I hope by now that I've made 2 points:

1) I haven't harmed Apple (me, just me, now) by downloading and installing a preview Tiger.

2) Apple suing those three guys (which I AGREE they have every right to do) will do nothing to stop future versions from getting into my hands, or any other curious parties.

1. Of course not. Unless you're into industrial espionnage. Or a developper, in which case you should've paid your ADC membership. Apart from that, no real problem.

2. It will make a lot of people think twice before leaking alpha/beta/developper-only software. Will it stop all leaks? Absolutely not. The goal here is to lower the number of leaks, not stop them.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Apple is within its rights, regardless.

I would not like to have something I wrote for profit on a P2P; I'd be p*ssed.

This move shouldn't surprise anyone on either side of the debate; anyway when Tiger is publicly released it will be on P2P as well, so the downloaders win (except for the guys getting sued).

 

[MarksEvilTwin]

Every time!

Removed

 

[Yvan256]

Personally, I'd rather be a little more in the dark about Apple products that know what's going to come out before Steve says a thing (too bad I'm hopelessly addicted to this website. sigh...).

Mark

Indeed. It's a fight between the juicy rumors and the ability to be wowed by Steve's RDF in the presentations.

We talked so much about eMac G5 and iPod micro (flash) that if they do introduce it, I'll only be happy, not surprised.

Of course, I'll be bitching at the eMac G5's GPU/VRAM and how even the superdrive model isn't even LightScribe-capable.

 

[ChrisBrightwell]

Well, it's illegal and goes against the EULA.

EULAs are starting to fail miserably in court, so there's one down ...

 

[JCentourage]

Character

Yeah, they told me that bs in school too.

Dwonlaoding Tiger or not, one must decide for one's self what is right. To have these values imposed does nothing to change one's actions.

 

[ChrisBrightwell]

Both things are ILLEGAL. Get over it. downloading software is illigal. [...]

Just as a point of order -- this is overly broad and, as stated, is simply untrue.

There are thousands (if not tens of thousands) of software applications out there which are 100% free and legal to download. I'd almost contend that there is more free software, thanks to GNU and the OSS platform, than commercial software.

 

[ChrisBrightwell]

Whether you intend to buy the final or not, you have still stolen the pre-release. A developer membership costs $500, so you have stolen $500.

*laughs*

If you'd broken into the developer database and added yourself as a member, maybe, but not for downloading a developer preview release.

 

[Mord]

All of this conversation about right, wrong, moral, immaoral, legal, illegal... I am reminded that "Character is who you are when you think no one is watching."

as much as i hate to admit it i agree, i act completely differently when online to when i'm with my friends and to when i'm at home.

say you fragging someone on ut2k4 and you expose them to some l337 speak like d00d j00 5uck 1 pw3n j00 (dude you suck i own you), your not goign to say that to your dad when you beat him at chess.

 

[ZildjianKX]

Honestly I don't have the time to bother with installing a beta OS, too much of a hassle. Apple is still primarily a hardware company remember. Anywho, if I was a poor college student trying to develope some software for Tiger I can see wanting a copy since the student ADC doesn't cover pre-release OSes...

Regardless, I'm going to law school hoping to persue intellectual property and patent, so bring on the lawsuits!

 

[ChrisBrightwell]

I see no need for them to sue over an alpha OS getting leaked on the internet. Like it has been said here before, if malicious people want to get their hands on it, they will. [...]

Agreed.

Besides, what software development house would, in their right mind, turn down an opportunity for more people to submit more bug reports?

If I were heading a project as large as an OS update (with hundreds of new features, even), I'd be eager to get it on as many test platforms as possible.

 

[ChrisBrightwell]

I agree with you there... DISTRIBUTING is most definitely illegal and those guys will probably pay the penalty. My point was that DOWNLOADING the beta equates to about the same harm as doing 60 mph in a 55 zone - not much. [...]

Well, technically, when you join the .torrent, you become the hunter and the hunted, so to speak. You're downloading and distributing at the same time. It's by design.

 

[huckleup]

What many of you guys don't get is that Apple has a legal responsibility to pursue illegal copying. If you know someone is stealing something that belongs to you and you don't pursue stopping them, you implicitly give up you copyrights and patents.

Not all of software technology is patented, so that doesn't always protect you. Even copyrights can be challenged, and often alternate ways to achieve similar results can be developed without violating copyrights. Some of it is Trade Secret, which means that you can't stop people from copying it, you can only hope that the technology is complicated and obscure enough that someone else can't easily figure out how you do it. The longer you keep the feature a secret the more of a head start you have on others. That feeds the perception that your company is innovative, and has something that others don't - which is a marketing value, not a legal one. Note how Apple is often touting there features as 'The First' at something. That's a big part of their marketing strategy.

Look at the current slew of software that is trying to copy the publicly shown Spotlight technology. I've already seen a number of news articles claiming the M$ Desktop search and Google HD search are just as good as Spotlight. Of course, that is not true, but most non-technical people will just read the misleading reviews and assume they are getting equivalent features in Windows. This has shown to be very successful where people think that Windows is 'just as good' as the Mac OS. Of course, that is largely a comparison of apples and oranges (or lemons), but again, marketing spin is very effective in convincing users that they have no reason to check out the Mac OS because they are told that M$ is already giving them everything they need.

I don't think the lawsuits have much to do with stopping companies/developers from seeing features in advance. You can be sure that M$ et. al. has full access to any seed releases. AFAIK M$ is still the biggest software developer for the Mac (the Office suite, VPC, etc.). Of course the developers can tell their bosses what technologies are in Tiger - they need to get development projects started and funded. Anyone within the company they tell is bound by the original NDA.

It's about protecting your copyrights, trying to stay ahead of the competition as much as possible while still getting third party developers on board to release new products at the time of official launch, and limiting the distribution to keep the buzz factor under the control of the marketeers.

 

[Yvan256]

Just as a point of order -- this is overly broad and, as stated, is simply untrue.

There are thousands (if not tens of thousands) of software applications out there which are 100% free and legal to download. I'd almost contend that there is more free software, thanks to GNU and the OSS platform, than commercial software.

Even worst, his sentence ("downloading software is illegal") is even not true in some commercial cases.

You can buy download versions from a lot of companies (including Adobe, if I recall correctly).

So "Downloading copyrighted, commercial software" isn't even true. Of course, if you do "download copyrighted commercial software" without paying for it, it's illegal.

But we're only taking apart strict sentences here, anyway.