Apple Suggests Possible Conspiracy Behind Psystar

[pdjudd]

And even if you had to purchase Leopard, and cut the box open to read the license, Psystar would have known the license after the first installation. Assuming that they sold more than one computer, that excuse would be gone for the second computer shipped. People also tend to forget that Psystar is a company and held to a different standard than you and me. If the license is hard to find, they have to search hard to find it. If they can't find it anywhere, they have the choice of not shipping MacOS X, or to agree to and be bound by a license that they never read. If they can't understand the terms of the license, they have to ask their lawyers. If their lawyers don't understand the license, then they should not ship MacOS X. They are a company, and they are bound by a license to a much higher degree than end users.

Correct. Furthermore, even if you had to purchase it (ie it wasn't on Apple's own website), I am sure that Apple would be very happy to send you a printed copy if you asked just so that you were aware of it before purchase. But as you pointed out, Psystar as a company is expected to know and research the legality of their options before attempting to become a reseller.

In short, they should know better.

 

[mcnallym]

That would be a disaster. There's no way they can win. Mac users like us will still stick with Apple obviously. This will hurt Apple's market share and credibility. The more people than use the OS X platform, the more idiots are gonna want to program viruses.

Already started, hence why Apple saying to get AV for your Mac. Up until before the announcement the FAQ used to say no need for AV with a Mac.

 

[HyperZboy]

Correct. Furthermore, even if you had to purchase it (ie it wasn't on Apple's own website), I am sure that Apple would be very happy to send you a printed copy if you asked just so that you were aware of it before purchase. But as you pointed out, Psystar as a company is expected to know and research the legality of their options before attempting to become a reseller.

In short, they should know better.

EULA SCHMULA!

All these pointless arguments over damages on EULA violations make me laugh. Most companies' EULAs skate daily on thin ice legally. They just continue to exist because many of the restrictions in many companies' EULAs never get challenged in court because it would be difficult for lawyers to claim damages or harm to anyone, i.e.: Unless a lawyer sees money potential, there is no lawsuit and EULAs like Apple's continue on. I can't believe that so many fanboys here actually think that Apple's EULA would stand completely intact if this went to trial! How naive.

Trust me, Apple does NOT want their EULA tested in a court of law.

 

[ogbuke]

At the same time, there's a difference between critical analysis and being disappointed that a product didn't shape up the way one hoped and the hand-wringing and histrionics of the equally powerful cult of Apple Personally Wronged Me.

As much as it might shock both sides, Apple is a corporation, and neither the answer to all life's problems nor the personal destroyer of electronic paradise. They make products and money and have a demonstrated talent for doing both. They can't serve everyone, and they don't try. If they don't have something suitable, get yourself something that is. You can't always get what you want no matter how entitled to it you might feel.

Some people can't seem to get over it and feel so personally victimized by a simple business that they have to stomp around complaining about minitowers, or Apple's thin and style obsession, or the unholy evils of a deviant port connector, or Apple "monopolies" on their own products instead of just buying something that suits their needs and moving on with their lives. Life is about making choices from less-than-perfect options.

What little of it there was to begin with. People have never been rational about their attachments or their need to complain.

Dude you've said it all. Your posts are greatly appreciated on this forum.

 

[LiveForever]

Cue a good investigative Journalist to dig into Psystar

This could be Pulitzer prize winning material.

Journalsist are always better at getting to the truth far more effectively than teh authorities or companies.

I do smell something else. This is some heavy people testing the waters and trying to muscles into apples action.It doesn't make sense otherwise.

Once they have done it with PC's then they could say right lets make our own iphones now, does that not run OSX?

I would be surprised if some journos aren't already peeling away who Psystar really is.

 

[ogbuke]

Well. Apple doesnt make the hardware. Its supplied by many different vendors. Apple just put it together in the factory. This same hardware is found in many regular PC's.

Hopefully, some of this will change soon. If Apple does come out with netbooks in the first quarter of 2009, this could get more people to buy a Mac, that could not previously afford one, instead of a netbook that Pystar could come out with in the future.

Right like Apple's sales are being threatened or even will be threatened by Psystar in the future.

 

[JAT]

I'm not suggesting that the gripe isn't legitimate, but is that 1.5" THAT big a deal? To some, obviously yes. I just don't think Apple cares, nor do I think they're going to one day care. Their laptop line is complete. You either get on board...or you don't. One of the perils of being an Apple customer!

See, I'm hardly an Apple apologist, I'm an efficiency freak. (hence my disgust for Windows and preference for OSX) The first sentence above is what I agree with. The rest is just the typical crap that goes on at MR. "You hate Apple" "You love Apple" "You got your peanut butter in my chocolate".....good god, just relax.

So, grue, about laptops....Dell only makes certain sizes, too. A couple more than Apple, but with your requirements as listed you will hard pressed to find ANY laptop, let alone one that size that also runs OSX. So maybe, just possibly, finding a way for a size change would be appropriate for you.

It's actually 1.8" diffference (G4 to MB), but I don't see how that can truly affect anyone's "workspace". It would have to be the user that is anorexic to make this width difference a big deal, sitting in a 1' wide space, as if such a desk exists. I have used a MB on a plane, I didn't run into any position that would have been improved if it was 1.8" slimmer. Weight is the real killer to me when I am mobile.

So, I don't see how the shape of a MB can be such a big deal that you have spent 3 years griping about it and not using one. For your livelihood. As I mentioned, Sony's TT line is almost precisely what you want in shape and is not one of those tiny things. Go for it. Or the MB is less than 2" wider but runs the software that makes far more impact on productivity. Go for it. You only hurt you if that G4 becomes too slow one day.

 

[mklos]

Correct. Furthermore, even if you had to purchase it (ie it wasn't on Apple's own website), I am sure that Apple would be very happy to send you a printed copy if you asked just so that you were aware of it before purchase. But as you pointed out, Psystar as a company is expected to know and research the legality of their options before attempting to become a reseller.

In short, they should know better.

All of the license agreeements are posted on Apple's websites for all of their products:

http://www.apple.com/legal/sla/

 

[LiveForever]

People are already digging into them.

http://gizmodo.com/380488/psystar-exposed-looks-like-a-hoax

Update: Reader Robert did some more digging in the Florida Corporate filing office, and it seems that Psystar's principles are Rodolfo and Roberto Pedraza, who are officers or agents on a whole crapload of companies. Only one of these companies besides Psystar is currently active: Floridatek.

 

[HyperZboy]

People are already digging into them.

http://gizmodo.com/380488/psystar-exposed-looks-like-a-hoax

Wow, sounds less like Michael Dell and more like the Cuban Mafia! LOL

 

[JAT]

They want backdoor hooks in Mac OS that Jobs has so far refused to provide... took a monopoly lawsuit against Microsoft to get Bill Gates to cave, and part of the reason Vista was such crap and Windows in general so vulnerable to attack.

So...Win 3.1 was secure, so was Win95, but now the US Gov't made Win suck with the release of Vista? That's a pretty nice aluminum hat you've got, friend.

 

[mklos]

At the same time, there's a difference between critical analysis and being disappointed that a product didn't shape up the way one hoped and the hand-wringing and histrionics of the equally powerful cult of Apple Personally Wronged Me.

As much as it might shock both sides, Apple is a corporation, and neither the answer to all life's problems nor the personal destroyer of electronic paradise. They make products and money and have a demonstrated talent for doing both. They can't serve everyone, and they don't try. If they don't have something suitable, get yourself something that is. You can't always get what you want no matter how entitled to it you might feel.

Some people can't seem to get over it and feel so personally victimized by a simple business that they have to stomp around complaining about minitowers, or Apple's thin and style obsession, or the unholy evils of a deviant port connector, or Apple "monopolies" on their own products instead of just buying something that suits their needs and moving on with their lives. Life is about making choices from less-than-perfect options.

What little of it there was to begin with. People have never been rational about their attachments or their need to complain.

You are absolutely correct. Too many people complain about things, especially Apple users, or potential Apple users. I've said it 100 times, and I'll say it again, Apple could release an 8-core 10 GHz MacPro today with 8 GB of RAM, 1TB HD, etc for $999 and someone would find something to complain about because that one or two things it doesn't have makes it so it doesn't suit their needs. So they need to complain. Well, someone out there makes what you want so you look and buy it. There are over 25 Million Mac users and probably just as many potential Mac users and everyone wants/needs something different. Apple can't can't suit the needs of everyone. They have a simplified product line and suits the needs of the "most" consumers. Those who are not suited by Apple's product lineup are more than welcomed to go find a company that suits their needs. Its just the way it is in this world and all the b-itching and complaining in the world isn't going to stop it.

 

[ritzuk]

I think Alice said "curiouser and curiouser," not "interestinger and interestinger." Lol.

Was it Alice herself?

I thought it was another character!

 

[dr Dunkel]

Keep in mind Psystar's only product filled the biggest gap in Apple's product line, a reasonably priced midtower/desktop system that the owner can update/expand easily over the life of the machine. No doubt it selected this segment deliberately as Apple has zero offerings in this segment.

This is a very good point. The force of the market at its most beautiful - if the people want this product and Apple don't realise it then this is what you will get.

I wonder when Apple will get it?

 

[LeoNobilis]

I never thought I'd use this word to describe Apple, of all companies, but this strange development just REEKS of DESPERATION on Apple's part!

Like others have mentioned, PSYSTAR is a corporation with little assets, no one will go to jail, DMCA or not, EULA violation or not. PSYSTAR really does have little to lose and it is strange that they have the cash on hand to afford this legal defense this long, let alone going forward.

Sure, Apple will probably win on some level with copyright infringement, but there's a damn good chance that all of Apple's other claims will be thrown out including their EULA. I even wonder if DMCA could face a Supreme Court challenge over this. It's certainly stretching the limits of the DMCA's original intent.

Basically, unless Apple wins the EULA or DMCA arguments, that MacOS can only be installed on Apple brand computers and/or this is theft of copyrighted property, Apple is in BIG TROUBLE. And it's doubtful Apple will win on the EULA count. So that's got to be the reason they are throwing everything but the alien UFO kitchen sink at PSYSTAR now. It's definitely an act of desperation on Apple's part in an effort to drain monetarily this company out of business BEFORE this goes to trial.

Let's say Apple wins part of the copyright suit, but not the EULA or DMCA parts. PSYSTAR could then just sell the computers without pre-installing a hacked MacOS, but give end-users the software to do the installation easily themselves. It would never turn PSYSTAR into a DELL, but I bet DELL would certainly then be interested in doing the same thing and so would tons of other PC companies.

I always predicted this would never go to trial, because Apple has way too much to lose and PSYSTAR has little to lose, but it looks like Apple is now worried it WILL go to trial and that's certainly not good news for Apple. Now the big question is, who IS behind PSYSTAR, if anybody, or is this stunt really just a sign of Apple's desperation at not being able to even buy PSYSTAR out of business? You would think it would be chump change for Apple to just buy PSYSTAR out and PSYSTAR would probably get more money than they've made selling the damn clones! But yet the legal wrangling continues. Strange happenings indeed.

And as a footnote, I've been an Apple user since 1983, but these fanboy EULA cheerleaders really kinda make me sick. Many companys' EULAs would not stand up in court and all of Apple's most certainly won't either. I may be a lifelong Apple user, but I'm not a fanboy nor do I believe everything Steve Jobs says. Please, before posting on this topic, fanboys, please turn on your Reality Distortion Field Deflector Shields. Thanks.

Well, mate? What were the alternatives in '83? Windows 95? Or Ubuntu?
Not strange that, provided your age (and possibly, your financial aptitude at the time, as you sound as tediously jurisprudence-competent as any lawyer), you used an Apple computer then, is it? You could have a Lamborghini and handle it as a Jeep? Not the exemplary Lamborghini owner, then... Tell me what's wrong with being a fan of the platform that glows with the distinction of being leaps and bounds better than the alternatives? If you can't make a distinction between Apple and Windoze junk, then what detains you from switching to Windoze, unconditionally and exclusively (as you clearly wouldn't mind, would you)?

 

[cameronjpu]

However, if Apple's going to continue pandering to idiots and trendtards,

I'm asking for a small machine that isn't horrifyingly compromised. I'll even settle for the godforsaken trash that is a glossy screen. Just give me something the size of a 12" PowerBook, no larger.

Wouldn't "pandering to trendtards" kinda include following the current hot trend to offer a netbook?

 

[Zw42a]

In regards to Finder, here's a list of flaws compared to Explorer just off the top of my head:

no way to quickly "get to" a deep down folder structure, because there's no path bar to copy/paste the location to/from. I know you can drag the little folder from one Finder window into another to "jump" to that path, but it's a pain, and half the time you can't grab it properly

Try using Spotlight. Use +space to quickly enter Spotlight an d start typing the name of the folder you're looking for. I tend to use this more than browsing the Finder.

- no cut and paste

OS X is a drag and drop orientated OS. Never missed a cut-function.

If you have troubles with grabbing a file, try to grab it by its icon and you'll never see those troubles again

- when Finder is generating thumbnails for media files (which it doesn't even cache, so it has to do this EVERY FRICKIN TIME) if you want to rename a file, it'll stop the rename process while you're typing once it gets to the next file in the window it needs to generate a thumbnail for. So if you have hundreds of files in there that need thumbnails generated for, you essentially can't rename things until it's done. WHY ISN'T THIS FIXED?

You can rename the file, you'll only see the result a bit later. But it is confusing.

- anytime I want to save something and it defaults to column view, there's no way to make it auto-expand the column length for the necessary width required to show the longest file name

Double click on the resize handle when in column-view. Too bad it doesn't work when in list-view.

- search is totally busted. Why does it always default to showing the results of the entire system? If I'm typing specifically in a Finder window to search for something and not universally using Spotlight it should default results to just that damn folder (or window) and its sub-folders

Yep, really frustrating sometimes. Hopefully there will be a fix soon!

- you can't even sort search results by size

Don't use it myself but I think it should be there, yes.

- in Vista you can set literally HUNDREDS of different columns to sort things by. Megapixel, sure? You can do it. Give us the option.
- give Finder a small to large view slider like iPhoto for window management.

Options are always welcome!

 

[gnasher729]

EULA SCHMULA!

All these pointless arguments over damages on EULA violations make me laugh. Most companies' EULAs skate daily on thin ice legally. They just continue to exist because many of the restrictions in many companies' EULAs never get challenged in court because it would be difficult for lawyers to claim damages or harm to anyone, i.e.: Unless a lawyer sees money potential, there is no lawsuit and EULAs like Apple's continue on. I can't believe that so many fanboys here actually think that Apple's EULA would stand completely intact if this went to trial! How naive.

Trust me, Apple does NOT want their EULA tested in a court of law.

I am sure you can give us an example or two of some terms in Apple's Leopard EULA that wouldn't stand up in court. We are all waiting.

At the moment I can only see that Psystar is in clear violation of "MacOS X may be installed only on one Apple-labeled" computer, which, as a court has decided last week, is something that is completely within Apple's rights to put into a EULA and to enforce.

 

[matticus008]

as you sound as tediously jurisprudence-competent as any lawyer)

Not really. Just tedious.

The SLA claim is the copyright infringement claim. Admitting that Apple will prevail on copyright infringement but somehow won't be able to enforce its SLA is pure cognitive dissonance--the violation steps on Apple's exclusive right to control reproduction and distribution; Apple can't win without finding that their restriction to Macs is an exercise of that right, and naturally it is. As for "desperation", this is a fairly textbook infringement case so far. People talking out of their asses will always find things to read into it, though.

They just continue to exist because many of the restrictions in many companies' EULAs never get challenged in court because it would be difficult for lawyers to claim damages or harm to anyone

If there is no claim, there is no basis to strike down the provision.

that Apple's EULA would stand completely intact if this went to trial!

Neither the practice of software licensing nor the entirely of Apple's SLA is at issue to go to trial.

 

[ogbuke]

This is a very good point. The force of the market at its most beautiful - if the people want this product and Apple don't realise it then this is what you will get.

I wonder when Apple will get it?

People are lining up to buy these guys computers, they are making a killing of of it.

 

[zacman]

Wrong. Most Windows PCs are sold with OEM install, which has a EULA clause that prevents it being installed in any other computer. So you can't take the XP copy from the old P4 dell and put it on your new homebuilt superbox.

If the EULA goes down then first sale doctrine applies and you can take your copy of XP and put it on any computer that will have it. This will cost Microsoft a lot.

That has already happened in Germany. Dealers sold normal OEM Windows DVDs and Microsoft sued them. MS lost the case. The EULA didn't apply to the end user because you cannot be forced to accept an EULA when you bought a boxed version of standard software. The courts say that the click to "I accept the EULA" doesn't establish any contract between the customer and the software manufacturer at all. Since then you can get Windows for 60-70€ (Vista Home OEM) in any German computer store.

There was a similar court decision against HP in the 1990s. Back then HP tried with its EULA to force customers to run software only on specific machines sold by HP. HP lost the case.

It's probably the same in other EU countries as well.

 

[BenRoethig]

At the same time, there's a difference between critical analysis and being disappointed that a product didn't shape up the way one hoped and the hand-wringing and histrionics of the equally powerful cult of Apple Personally Wronged Me.

And difference is shutting up and doing as your told right?

As much as it might shock both sides, Apple is a corporation, and neither the answer to all life's problems nor the personal destroyer of electronic paradise. They make products and money and have a demonstrated talent for doing both. They can't serve everyone, and they don't try. If they don't have something suitable, get yourself something that is. You can't always get what you want no matter how entitled to it you might feel.

You're right. Why devote resources to R&D to the Power user who expects new functionality when you can make a lot more money off of a more mainstream using buying Macs for social reasons who expect nothing from you except hype. Nothing is more profitable than ignorance.

Some people can't seem to get over it and feel so personally victimized by a simple business that they have to stomp around complaining about minitowers, or Apple's thin and style obsession, or the unholy evils of a deviant port connector, or Apple "monopolies" on their own products instead of just buying something that suits their needs and moving on with their lives. Life is about making choices from less-than-perfect options.

Try spending a decade and a half on a platform and investing thousands of dollars on a platform only to have to rug pulled out. And there used to be some very easy choices. There used to be this computer company called Apple who focused on making a better and more useable computer while adding a bit of style to the mix. It wasn't until your kind started diluting the Mac gene pool that we started to have problems.

What little of it there was to begin with. People have never been rational about their attachments or their need to complain.

You've never met a Mac user have you? Not one of the cultists or fanboys who wants to be cool or different, but someone who actually uses the platform for its benefits.

 

[GenNovE]

For the uninformed.

Viruses= Millions of dollars=New Jobs=A whirlwind of profit for companies even the ones affected by it.

Everything is caused for a reason. Is a balance. Hackers/Viruses force security.

 

[RTiii320]

Mac OS-X Compatible PC's?

...yuck

 

[heisetax]

KAplle helps this

With Apple only producing a limited number of models in a limited price range, the pressure is on everyone to make a Mac Clone. They just needed to do it in a little better way.

Even though Psystar didn't handle the use of OS X in the best way, I am still on their side in this legal battle. For the above mentioned reasons & others unmentioned, Apple is daring companies to make Mac Clones. Psystar just isn't going away as fast as Apple had expected.

I would like to have a Mac Clone laptop with FW.