Apple Supplier Sony Debuts 21-Megapixel Image Sensor With Ultra Fast Autofocus, 4K HDR Video

[Wuiffi]

There are a few things everyone should know before talking about image sensors (especially in smartphones)
1. More Megapixels in smartphones (due to a very small pixel pitch) actually means a worse SNR (signal to noise ratio) than less megapixels, resulting in an overall worse image. This is due to wiring and other stuff "getting in the way" of the photons (And this can NOT be corrected by Downscaling)

2. The sensor it not the only important thing when it comes to image quality, you have to consider the whole image pipeline, optics, ISP etc

3. The size of a camera module depends on the sensor size and the focal length.
Wait, actually this is no longer important, now that we have a protruding camera. So Apple, give me a 1/2.4" or better 1.1.7" sensor

What I personally would like to see (maybe not 2015 but soon)
* bigger (1/2.4") sensor
* curved sensor with an alternative color layout (similar to Foveon or Sonys new patented color shift layer)
* 9-10MP (4k need about 8.4 MP and then people finally shut up about it ^^)
* other improvements in sensor technology

 

[macduke]

I personally would much prefer larger sensors to more megapixels.

Unless other improvements are made, ncreasing pixels degrades quality. This chip apparently has other improvements, so maybe in this case?

EDIT: Ok, did some research and at first glance it doesn't appear that this is the same type of technology, which is quite unfortunate as I've been waiting to see some advances on this front. What I'm talking about is a Foveon-type sensor. Canon recently had a patent to improve the design. This is a cross section that gives you some insight into what I had previously written below:

Previous post below…

I'm not sure about what Sony's definition of "stacked sensor" design means, but from what I've read about it in general and particularly regarding potential upcoming sensors from Canon, you can pretty much throw what you know about more megapixels in a small sensor = worse quality out the window. Well, that's not entirely true, but it is to a certain extent. Let me explain.

From what I understand, you usually need three photo receptors to capture each of the red, green, and blue colors. These take up space on the sensor in two dimensions. The stacked sensor design utilizes three dimensions. Each photo receptor detects the level of red, green, and blue values depending on how far each wavelength of light penetrates through the various filters vertically into the chip. Thus you can get around three times the resolution because you have three times the surface area now without necessarily reducing image quality.

So, in theory, a 21 megapixel stacked sensor with the same dimensions as the current iPhone 6 sensor could actually have better image quality because tripling the current 8 megapixels gives you 24 megapixels, and the new design is 21 megapixels stacked, so more similar to a 7MP sensor pixel pitch. So there would be less photoreceptors per square milimeter, thus potentially reducing noise and other factors. POTENTIALLY. It all depends on the specifics of the stacked design and whether or not the interference between stacked receptors is worse, the same, or better than a standard array of receptors.

 

[downpour]

No, the 10-megapixel sensor would provide the better image. Each pixel would be bigger on the sensor, so allowing more photons in. The more photons, the more accurately each pixel is recreated.

Surely 4 pixels would collectively receive roughly the same amount of photons as 1 pixel, if they covered the same physical area. I would have thought the extra data would reduce the effects of noise etc, when scaled back down to the same res.

 

[macduke]

There are a few things everyone should know before talking about image sensors (especially in smartphones)
1. More Megapixels in smartphones (due to a very small pixel pitch) actually means a worse SNR (signal to noise ratio) than less megapixels, resulting in an overall worse image. This is due to wiring and other stuff "getting in the way" of the photons (And this can NOT be corrected by Downscaling)

Also wanted to quote you for my response above. Do you know the specifics of Sony's stacked design? I don't have time to do a bunch of research right now but would love to hear some more answers on this.

 

[Macist]

A phone with proper optics and a larger sensor would be cool to enable shallow depth of field. That's the next 'breakthrough'. Until then it's all just gimmicks.

 

[manu chao]

The development is the stacked arrangement - integrated on-chip signal processing. This, arguably, is a bigger deal for manufacturers than photographers - reduced component count, reduced space requirements, etc.

Do on-chip, column A/Ds count as on-chip signal processing? Or is the new thing here that we now have one A/D per pixel instead one per column? Or that things like raw conversion now occur on the sensor silicon?

And we don't really know whether the iPhone 6/+ sensor uses an integrated on-chip signal processing because Apple only tells us about the consumer-facing features like PD AF.

 

[AlecZ]

PS: Yes, MP matter. Anyone who wants to crop a part of an image and not be left with an forum avatar pictures sized thumbnail will agree.

The sensor has to be good enough to capture all those megapixels without too much noise. I've seen phones with really bad "1080p" cameras.

 

[smithrh]

And people like you are the reason manufacturers keep making stupid gimmicks like this... A 4K sensor the size of a pin head with a $.25 plastic lens is useless.

You don't know me, my background... hell you, you don't know anything.

Just stop.

 

[Glassed Silver]

The sensor has to be good enough to capture all those megapixels without too much noise. I've seen phones with really bad "1080p" cameras.

That is true, but let's just consider that Apple wouldn't put something in there where the end result at same resolution were of lesser quality than before.

I just find it really annoying that people categorically say they don't want more MP at all, like it's a fundamentally bad thing in itself.

Glassed Silver:mac

 

[Col4bin]

Still dissapointed that the iP6 didn't at least bump the camera to 12x mega pixels. Yes it's better than before, but still takes crappy low-light and blurry moving object photos.

Guessing it'll get the 12 mega pixel treatment with next year's spec-bumped iP6S.

Can't help but think that Apple is falling way behind the competition as far as phone camera's are concerned.

 

[Michael73]

My wish list

An iPhone with optical zoom but that ain't gonna happen because of the drive toward being ever thinner.

An iPhone that shoots in RAW. I know that eats up space but still, why don't they do this?

Nothing is more annoying than capturing the picture of a lifetime but having opted to shoot using a lower resolution just to maximize the number of shots you can fit on a memory card, and then realizing you can enlarge or manipulate it like you'd like.

 

[Wuiffi]

Still dissapointed that the iP6 didn't at least bump the camera to 12x mega pixels. Yes it's better than before, but still takes crappy low-light and blurry moving object photos.

Guessing it'll get the 12 mega pixel treatment with next year's spec-bumped iP6S.

Can't help but think that Apple is falling way behind the competition as far as phone camera's are concerned.

Please mark your post as irony.

If it isn't and you really believe what you say, please to some read up about how image sensors work

 

[Moonjumper]

Surely 4 pixels would collectively receive roughly the same amount of photons as 1 pixel, if they covered the same physical area. I would have thought the extra data would reduce the effects of noise etc, when scaled back down to the same res.

4 inaccurate figures averaged is not as good as one accurate figure.

 

[TommyA6]

Still dissapointed that the iP6 didn't at least bump the camera to 12x mega pixels. Yes it's better than before, but still takes crappy low-light and blurry moving object photos.

Guessing it'll get the 12 mega pixel treatment with next year's spec-bumped iP6S.

Can't help but think that Apple is falling way behind the competition as far as phone camera's are concerned.

Please explain to me, how exactly would increasing megapixel count to 12 solve those issues? Every phone camera will take a blurry shot of a moving object, UNLESS! picture is taken in good light (so the exposure time can be pretty short (1/500 s or less)), OR the picture is taken using xenon flash (which practically no phone uses) which gives plenty of light for the exposure time to still be very low.
You can obviously manually set exposure time to be relatively low even in bad light, but you'll most likely end up with underexposed or noisy image.

Please find me camera phone which takes better low light photos than iPhone 6 (and especially 6 Plus). All the reviews found that it's the best mobile phone camera out there (including low light).

EDIT: If your post was sarcastic, next time please use as it is very hard lately to distinguish between smart (sarcasm) and stupidity and ignorance.

 

[Wuiffi]

Surely 4 pixels would collectively receive roughly the same amount of photons as 1 pixel, if they covered the same physical area. I would have thought the extra data would reduce the effects of noise etc, when scaled back down to the same res.

4 inaccurate figures averaged is not as good as one accurate figure.

It's (nearly) true for sensors with bigger pixels. (If you downscaled a D810 picture to ~16MP you would get nearly the exact same image (talking about noise) as a "true" 16MP sensor with the same technology would have produced)
HOWEVER this is only true to a certain point.

With smartphone sensors we have a pixel pitch of 1.1 micron (1.5 for the iphone and somewhere around 2 for the HTC One) and there wiring and other stuff gets in the way.

 

[ErikGrim]

This is lining up well with Gruber’s “whispers” that the next camera upgrade will be the biggest one ever. Something about a double lens system…?

 

[brianvictor7]

There are a few things everyone should know before talking about image sensors (especially in smartphones)
1. More Megapixels in smartphones (due to a very small pixel pitch) actually means a worse SNR (signal to noise ratio) than less megapixels, resulting in an overall worse image. This is due to wiring and other stuff "getting in the way" of the photons (And this can NOT be corrected by Downscaling)

2. The sensor it not the only important thing when it comes to image quality, you have to consider the whole image pipeline, optics, ISP etc

3. The size of a camera module depends on the sensor size and the focal length.
Wait, actually this is no longer important, now that we have a protruding camera. So Apple, give me a 1/2.4" or better 1.1.7" sensor

What I personally would like to see (maybe not 2015 but soon)
* bigger (1/2.4") sensor
* curved sensor with an alternative color layout (similar to Foveon or Sonys new patented color shift layer)
* 9-10MP (4k need about 8.4 MP and then people finally shut up about it ^^)
* other improvements in sensor technology

This is useful. Thanks.

 

[japanime]

The chorus of "I don't want 4k video/21-megapixels/optical zoom on my iPhone" reminds me of all the folks who just a few months ago were saying "I don't want a bigger screen/phablet/jumbo iPhone."

Bottom line: If Apple makes it for us, we'll want it.

 

[xDKP]

So the iPhone 6/6 Plus is using a late 2012 camera sensor? And widely regarded as the best smartphone camera on the market! Wow - impressive..

 

[2010mini]

At 16 or 21 MP images, Apple better have some sort of 256GB iPhone / iPad model somewhere in R&D to ensure there is enough space on the devices for those file sizes!

Isn't that what the new iCloud Photo is for?

 

[FrankieTDouglas]

Will is also contain noise reduction from hell, like on the current 6 camera?

 

[musser]

expertisto

It's wonderful how all these cyberworld experts pop out from nowhere every time Apple (or anyone) comes out with a new idea or approach. How's it possible that all these experts can not be employed by top producers and are only left to comment?

 

[Garsun]

Apple need to go 32GB, 64GB, 256GB with their iDevices in the next Gen. 16GB makes modern smartphone usage virtually impossible. A high capacity option would also be a good idea for those who want lots of music, video, photos and apps on their device.

I would disagree that 16 GB makes a modern smart phone usage virtually impossible. Using many modern apps to do all the normal things like email, text messaging, Facebook, Phone calls, some casual video and audio recording as well as more sophisticated things like streaming video surveillance, 16 GB is plenty of storage.
As long as you're not trying to hold your entire music library or TV shows or movies and don't load up with a large storage games or other large storage activities, 16 GB is fine.
It really just depends on how you use your phone. A lot of people don't require the things that take lots of storage.

 

[Eduardo Forneck]

13 mp with 1.6 micron pixels would be awesome, no need for more resolution than that, you would get a lot of detail, and with 1.6 micron pixels, low light photography would be really improved

 

[Wuiffi]

The chorus of "I don't want 4k video/21-megapixels/optical zoom on my iPhone"

4k: I don't need/use it, but if anyone wants it, ok. 9MP are enough for that
optical zoom: this would mean either exchangable lenses or a much bigger camera setup (not really in apples "Thinner is the new Thin" philosophy). Still I wouldn't care. I wouldn't want it for the zoom, but because different focsl length give you different image impressions
21MP: the only thing I really don't want. You can print 8MP on A4/A3 ( who here ever printed an iPhone picture) and for me getting a better SNR is more important than the possibility of a crop on my smartphone photos (Who ever post produced or even cropped his smartphone pictures)?