Apple Surpassed Samsung as World's Largest Smartphone Maker in Fourth Quarter

[samcraig]

Exactly my point too. It matters but not by itself and definitely not when you're losing money.

Like I always say, I can guarantee there's no one at Samsung who was saying "we're losing money the last two years, but our market share is strong!"

Here's the problem with your post. You could have made the same point being factually correct - but you, instead, didn't. Samsung didn't LOSE money. Their PROFITS decreased (I believe it dropped 60%).

Now this is definitely not GOOD for Samsung - however stating a company lost money vs not making as much money is not the same.

 

[Mildredop]

at the end of the day it sold like crazy

If I remember rightly, it didn't sell like crazy at first and they soon dropped the price.

When they were announcing the iPhone I remember saying I didn't care how much it was going to be, I was getting it (and I'm financially very comfortable).

But then it was something like £600 up front, £60 per month minimum (which gave a lame amount of included minutes/texts/data) for 2yr contract and it was only available on O2. The total cost was crazy, so I passed. But a few months later, I'm sure the prices fell quite significantly, and that's when it started to take off.

I suspect the same thing will happen with the iWatch.

 

[numlock]

True the price was crazy. Apple certainly didn't know how to price the iPhone, but at the end of the day it sold like crazy and customers were highly satisfied. After all there were no other Smartphones like it.

does "at the end of the day" mean after the price decrease or before?

on what do you base your statement that "it sold like crazy and customers were highly satisfied"?

it went on sale end of june and barely two months later the price dropped $200 and the 4 gig version (which i own one of btw) was dropped.

 

[Weaselboy]

[Mod Note]

I have removed some off-topic personal comments. Please keep the discussion on the thread subject.

 

[Elvergun]

Here's the problem with your post. You could have made the same point being factually correct - but you, instead, didn't. Samsung didn't LOSE money. Their PROFITS decreased (I believe it dropped 60%).

Now this is definitely not GOOD for Samsung - however stating a company lost money vs not making as much money is not the same.

LOL.

Sure, their profits decreased. You are right. Samsung Electronics did not lose money, and they are not about to declare bankruptcy.

But...

Samsung’s mobile division suffered a 74 percent profit drop from $5.7 billion to $1.65 billion. Why? Because people are not buying their phones (their market share fell from 33 percent to 24 percent).

You are right -- this is not GOOD for Samsung.

 

[LordVic]

does "at the end of the day" mean after the price decrease or before?

on what do you base your statement that "it sold like crazy and customers were highly satisfied"?

it went on sale end of june and barely two months later the price dropped $200 and the 4 gig version (which i own one of btw) was dropped.

An interesting statistical note:

The iPhone did NOT pass Blackberry (leader at the time) in volume of sales until 2nd Quarter 2010. 3 years after the product launch. the iPhone was a success, but not the initial rampant runaway success that we all tend to attribute to it. it did not by comparative standards at the time "Sell like crazy".

the First iPhone, while had higher demand than supply allocated for, which created long lineups, and a LOT of media buzz, Did NOT runaway with the sales until much later, when the 3GS was released (June 2009). At which point, iPhone sales absolutely soared.

http://www.statista.com/statistics/263401/global-apple-iphone-sales-since-3rd-quarter-2007/

http://www.statista.com/statistics/263395/rim-smartphones-shipped-worldwide-since-1st-quarter-2007/

 

[numlock]

An interesting statistical note:

The iPhone did NOT pass Blackberry (leader at the time) in volume of sales until 2nd Quarter 2010. 3 years after the product launch. the iPhone was a success, but not the initial rampant runaway success that we all tend to attribute to it. it did not by comparative standards at the time "Sell like crazy".

the First iPhone, while had higher demand than supply allocated for, which created long lineups, and a LOT of media buzz, Did NOT runaway with the sales until much later, when the 3GS was released (June 2009). At which point, iPhone sales absolutely soared.

http://www.statista.com/statistics/263401/global-apple-iphone-sales-since-3rd-quarter-2007/

http://www.statista.com/statistics/263395/rim-smartphones-shipped-worldwide-since-1st-quarter-2007/

exactly.

this line here puts it into perspective

Sales of the iPhone have risen strongly over the years, from around 1.4 million iPhones sold in 2007 to almost 170 million units worldwide in 2014

not that 1.4 million is horrible but it certainly didnt sell like crazy those first two months.

its more than 7 years ago but incidentally i visited new york twice in september 2007. first time i remember trying out the iphone in the 5th avene store and wondered whether to get one (i left the day before the price decrease). i visited new york again about 2 weeks later and bought 3 iphones. in my memory at least the 5th avenue store was much more crowded the second time.

 

[AEMV]

A better comparison would be iOs vs Android.. (Apple vs Google)

Since the strategy Google has adopted is to diversify their OS and getting a much larger marketshare as a result. Apple wont be able to beat that anytime soon.

Its ok though, you can always say Apple is better or argue that a closed environment is superior, but in reality Android kicked iOS' butt and makes for a more enjoyable and open experience.

 

[cleirac]

LOL.

Sure, their profits decreased. You are right. Samsung Electronics did not lose money, and they are not about to declare bankruptcy.

But...

Samsung’s mobile division suffered a 74 percent profit drop from $5.7 billion to $1.65 billion. Why? Because people are not buying their phones (their market share fell from 33 percent to 24 percent).

You are right -- this is not GOOD for Samsung.

I am wondering if they really made money in the end, if it already considered the huge money they spent in advertising promoting their mobile phones. And the possibility of staggering unsold / will never be sold number of units - maybe we will find out next quarter. I don't know, I am just guessing and it is free to express opinion, I feel like all these moves ... to be more look like Apple than mocking Apple even more smells like they are in more trouble than what the balance sheet shows last quarter.

----------

Yeah, I have the right to be wrong or look stupid . And I am not really hating Samsung. I just want to use my energy loving what I love. It is just interesting, they have been relentlessly mocking Apple then after what happened last quarter, it is like a 180 turn. I have to give them some credit and respect, it is not a 360 turn yet. And good to see them still giving Apple a fight.

 

[Amplelink]

I am wondering if they really made money in the end, if it already considered the huge money they spent in advertising promoting their mobile phones. And the possibility of staggering unsold / will never be sold number of units - maybe we will find out next quarter. I don't know, I am just guessing and it is free to express opinion, I feel like all these moves ... to be more look like Apple than mocking Apple even more smells like they are in more trouble than what the balance sheet shows last quarter.

----------

Yeah, I have the right to be wrong or look stupid . And I am not really hating Samsung. I just want to use my energy loving what I love. It is just interesting, they have been relentlessly mocking Apple then after what happened last quarter, it is like a 180 turn. I have to give them some credit and respect, it is not a 360 turn yet. And good to see them still giving Apple a fight.

Pretty sure they made money, but not much. there was an article recently about how Apple made 93 percent of profits of the entire market and Samsung made 9 or something to that effect. Rest of market was negative.

 

[Keirasplace]

I am wondering if they really made money in the end, if it already considered the huge money they spent in advertising promoting their mobile phones. And the possibility of staggering unsold / will never be sold number of units - maybe we will find out next quarter. I don't know, I am just guessing and it is free to express opinion, I feel like all these moves ... to be more look like Apple than mocking Apple even more smells like they are in more trouble than what the balance sheet shows last quarter.

----------

Yeah, I have the right to be wrong or look stupid . And I am not really hating Samsung. I just want to use my energy loving what I love. It is just interesting, they have been relentlessly mocking Apple then after what happened last quarter, it is like a 180 turn. I have to give them some credit and respect, it is not a 360 yet.

That they "made" money depends how they distributed the marketing cost & R&D to their various divisions. If they consider all Samsung advertising to be "for the brand" and fudge a bit on the imputation of R&D and don't put in strictly in the mobile division, well that's kind of "cheating" though perfectly legal since its not like the mobile division has its own stock ticker.

Investors though get really annoyed by that ; those that actually look closely at the numbers... A rare breed these days. It doesn't give you a clear view of their mobile division profitability; though if they did the same in previous years (and spending stayed the same, did it?), you'd at least be able to compare year to year drop in profit. Which has been substantial.

Myself, I don't think they actually lost money, but I do believe they're actually much closer to losing money than their already terrible report year end report shows.

 

[LordVic]

I think they're going to have more trouble ahead for themselves.

I dont think the S6 is anywhere close to a device to turn their fortunes. And maybe even Google thinks so.

Hearing some rumour (unsubstantiated so far) that Google is foregoing the current big names and going to go to Huwaei for their next nexus device.

if that's the case, that's a big loss for the HTC, Samsung's, MOto's and LG's who thought their existing size would keep them in the forefront on sheer momentum.

 

[cleirac]

Thanks Keirasplace for that analysis/interpretation.

It will be really interesting what will happen in 2015. Wish I have more money to buy more Apple stocks, haha.

LordVic, I am not going to make bold predictions. I am not good at it. Let's see if the Android and Samsung strategy for S6 will work. Well, I know Apple is safe for now. Or will Samsung become a friendly alternative to Apple, haha! Just play nice and continue what is great for the industry as a whole, Samsung when you "are up there again at the top".They have been insulting their big-time customer and my fellow Apple fans and yet they want their money, lol. *Apple makes some stupid moves too, I know*.

 

[Keirasplace]

A better comparison would be iOs vs Android.. (Apple vs Google)

Since the strategy Google has adopted is to diversify their OS and getting a much larger marketshare as a result. Apple wont be able to beat that anytime soon.

Its ok though, you can always say Apple is better or argue that a closed environment is superior, but in reality Android kicked iOS' butt and makes for a more enjoyable and open experience.

Wow, kinda of a bizarrely weak argument?

If "kicking" butt means
- Selling more phones because most are cheap (1/3 the price on average) (yes, Walmart sells more stuff than Bloomingdales, no question...)
- Making nearly 15 times less money as whole industry than Apple (with most OEM losing money), making it unlikely 50% of those OEM will survive 5 years. I guess these companies must like "winning" like that...
- Developers & advertisers (yes, even Google) making less money from your platform.
- Being immensely less secure (including not being able to encrypt your whole phone and being a haven for malware)
- Forgoing privacy as part of the "deal" to use Google apps/Android
- The OS is less responsive because it is less integrated with the hardware even when it is overspecced
- Most people not getting updates unless they buy a new phone
- Resale price being pitiful for most phones (meaning they're not as cheap as they seem).
- The latest IOS version being on par, or ahead in most feature area.
etc..

As for being open... You must be kidding. Google is bolting down things tighter and tighter. Asks the OEM how "open" they think Android is...

- Oh, and yes Android has more widgets on the home screen, and different skins and it is certainly very easy to get to the OS if your technically inclined to do so (which has big implications for security/privacy). So, If your one or the 1% who care about that... You are set and for you, indeed it may be an ideal phone.

Not, that this matter to 1B of Android users who just want their OS to not crap out on them.

 

[cleirac]

Pretty sure they made money, but not much. there was an article recently about how Apple made 93 percent of profits of the entire market and Samsung made 9 or something to that effect. Rest of market was negative.

Yeah, as Keirasplace, said, that would be depending how accurately Samsung reported to their mobile division in the balance sheet, right? Yeah, I will take it and believe, they made slim profit.

I have this conspiracy theory, that it is the maximum not including the expenses which could be legally hidden somewhere, hehe. I do not know a ****, well, we are in MacRumors.

----------

I am a fan of HTC. I hope they make money this year. It is not that I am wishing for all the companies I do not like to go away. I just want the truth so no more silly theorizing from me.

 

[cleirac]

It just dawn on me. Last year, I rarely turned on the radio or watch TV, but everytime I would hear on local stations that this and that carrier, offering buy one, get one Samsung mobile phones. Then the same thing on TV, though not BOGO ads, felt like I was bombarded with their ads any show I watch, haha.

 

[LordVic]

It just dawn on me. Last year, I rarely turned on the radio or watch TV, but everytime I would hear on local stations that this and that carrier, offering buy one, get one Samsung mobile phones. Then the same thing on TV, though not BOGO ads, felt like I was bombarded with their ads any show I watch, haha.

its just a marketting technique. It's to counter Apples lack of discount.

many people shop with discounts in mind. If they can find a discuont, they're more likely to at least try that discounted item first.

Samsung hopes that buying a discounted item gets you in their ecosystem and are less likely to switch.

they've been doing it for a few generations. even a couple years ago, it wasn't unheard of to see samsung tablets bundled with plans or phones.

it doesn't indicate their success / failures of busines.s it's just a different business model

Samsung probably thinks this is a good counter to Apple since Apple virtually never discounts any of their products. ever. Even black friday apple sales are never more than 5-10%

 

[Elvergun]

A better comparison would be iOs vs Android.. (Apple vs Google)

Since the strategy Google has adopted is to diversify their OS and getting a much larger marketshare as a result. Apple wont be able to beat that anytime soon.

Its ok though, you can always say Apple is better or argue that a closed environment is superior, but in reality Android kicked iOS' butt and makes for a more enjoyable and open experience.

Ha...but who made the most profit?

Apple vs Google? Well, Apple is more profitable than Google...and most of Apple's earnings came from iOS. Android didn't really kick any butt at all. But, hey, I'm glad that millions of cheap (and crappy) phones sold in India and China can make you so happy to be alive.

 

[LordVic]

Ha...but who made the most profit?

Apple vs Google? Well, Apple is more profitable than Google...and most of Apple's earnings came from iOS. Android didn't really kick any butt at all. But, hey, I'm glad that millions of cheap (and crappy) phones sold in India and China can make you so happy to be alive.

but this comes back to perspective:

as a consumer, the profitability of a company really isn't overall important as long as the company can maintain it's business plans and maintain long term support.

as an investor/owner, than yes, Profitability is key factor.

if you're not an Apple investor (or have Apple in your portfolio), there is absolutely no difference to you whether Apple, google, HTC, McDonalds or Famous Sams burgers makes 20 billion, or 100 billion in profit. All that matters is that the company can proceed and support it's business.

makign the argument that "apple made more profit than google" or "google is in more devices" is really overall silly.

we're at a point in the life of mobile that both android and google are financially secure and stable and will continue to support and produce products for the oncoming future. And we're all better for it. EVERYONE. even lowly Blackberry (in some way)

 

[Elvergun]

we're at a point in the life of mobile that both android and google are financially secure and stable and will continue to support and produce products for the oncoming future. And we're all better for it. EVERYONE. even lowly Blackberry (in some way)

I'm not so sure Blackberry can continue to survive for much longer. And if it happened to Blackberry (and Nokia), it can also happen to Apple or Samsung.

You can continue to produce products in the future (like Blackberry still does), but if nobody buys them, you gotta call it quits eventually. How much better are we from Blackberriy's last offering?

 

[LordVic]

I'm not so sure Blackberry can continue to survive for much longer. And if it happened to Blackberry (and Nokia), it can also happen to Apple or Samsung.

You can continue to produce products in the future (like Blackberry still does), but if nobody buys them, you gotta call it quits eventually. How much better are we from Blackberriy's last offering?

sorry, the Blackberry comment was a little joke. However, who knows, maybe they'll wow us one day soon with something and brings back profitability and sustaina..

yeah, I can't complete that thought without laughing

Yes, it can happent o anyone. Thats why i never said profits were not important. The only importants of Profit to the end user is that the company making those profits can sustain business. whether it's 20billion, 100 billion or a trillion dollars. so this "who makes the most profit in the industry" is a bit like a penis size comparison. Not much more

 

[Keirasplace]

sorry, the Blackberry comment was a little joke. However, who knows, maybe they'll wow us one day soon with something and brings back profitability and sustaina..

yeah, I can't complete that thought without laughing

Yes, it can happent o anyone. Thats why i never said profits were not important. The only importants of Profit to the end user is that the company making those profits can sustain business. whether it's 20billion, 100 billion or a trillion dollars. so this "who makes the most profit in the industry" is a bit like a penis size comparison. Not much more

I wouldn't say that... A good profit (instead of just barely there profit) enables more R&D, marketing, strategic acquisitions, increased capital spending (new buildings, equipment), hiring top staff, etc.

Yes, getting 18B dollars in profit is not substantially different from getting 2B in the near and middle term. But, there is a big difference between getting 3B and getting 100M in profits in how sustainable and resilient a company is.

For companies with just a bit of profits like LG and Xiami, they have to subsidize their phones investments from other divisions, which may have an impact on the rest of their business long term.

For Samsung, they had to severely decrease marketing spending on phones, so they don't bleed money (their marketing budget was completely out of control though) affecting how the brand is perceived for all their other products.

As for Android being secure, maybe... Depends how the next few years turn out. Xiomi' (and the rest of the Chinese cohort) deGooglefield Android is not going to help Google or even the Android ecosystem at all and they will start having a very major impact on Android world wide sales within 2 years. Fragmentation is also starting to become a very major issue; as the botched Lollipop release has showed.

I'd argue that Windows eventually will turn around and it looks like a much more solid phone/tablet OS than Android for most OEM's. 2014, was the nadir for Microsoft, 2015 will show distinct improvement. Windows hook will be the fact that Windows 10 will be a much better OS on the tablets/convertibles than Android (no contest really, especially for the enterprise) and MS still has a strong presence in the enterprise.

 

[Elvergun]

sorry, the Blackberry comment was a little joke. However, who knows, maybe they'll wow us one day soon with something and brings back profitability and sustaina..

yeah, I can't complete that thought without laughing

Yes, it can happent o anyone. Thats why i never said profits were not important. The only importants of Profit to the end user is that the company making those profits can sustain business. whether it's 20billion, 100 billion or a trillion dollars. so this "who makes the most profit in the industry" is a bit like a penis size comparison. Not much more

That's just your opinion.

I actually care that Apple "makes the most profit" because there is a good chance that they will continue to make iPhones in the near future. The 4 billion profit drop is certainly not making Samsung fans very happy. If they lose another $4 billion this year, will they take yet another risk by making an S7?

There is no comparison -- Apple has the biggest...err...you know...in the business. Who do you think has a better chance to sustain business in the mobile sector, Apple (with the biggest size in the world) or Samsung (with its $4 billion profit loss) ?

 

[LordVic]

but this comes back to perspective:

as a consumer, the profitability of a company really isn't overall important as long as the company can maintain it's business plans and maintain long term support.

as an investor/owner, than yes, Profitability is key factor.

if you're not an Apple investor (or have Apple in your portfolio), there is absolutely no difference to you whether Apple, google, HTC, McDonalds or Famous Sams burgers makes 20 billion, or 100 billion in profit. All that matters is that the company can proceed and support it's business.

makign the argument that "apple made more profit than google" or "google is in more devices" is really overall silly.

we're at a point in the life of mobile that both android and google are financially secure and stable and will continue to support and produce products for the oncoming future. And we're all better for it. EVERYONE. even lowly Blackberry (in some way)

Quoting myself, because you two seem to conveniently miss that i said the bolded part above.

 

[Elvergun]

Quoting myself, because you two seem to conveniently miss that i said the bolded part above.

Well, you are just stating the obvious, aren't you? And then you proceed to state that no further discussion is necessary.

It's like saying, "two plus two is four, and since this cannot be disputed, I win".