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Wow. So many errors...

Wow. So many errors...
  1. The GPU is most definitely NOT weaker than last year's MBP.
Yeah no one said it was. Simply that there are better options.

  1. The SSD is significantly faster than ANY current laptop (Windows or Mac). MacVidCards reported 1760MB/s sequential write speed for the 512GB capacity SSD. That is smoking!
Again not the issue. Make the argument to me that 256gb in a 3k 'pro' laptop is a good value.


  1. I dare say, most "pros" including myself will do absolutely fine with 16GB ram. There are a few that will need more than 16GB (but they are a small minority in the Pro landscape). For those people, Apple needs to update the Mac Pro.
The "it works for me so it's fine" fallacy. 16 works for me as well but that doesn't mean complaints about the lack of an upgrade option don't have merit


  1. The touch bar will be awesome!

Yeah just like the dongles I'm sure.
 
Wow. So many errors...
  1. The GPU is most definitely NOT weaker than last year's MBP. The Radeon Pro 460 runs 1.85 teraflops at peak performance with a TDP of less than 35 watts. That performance / TDP ratio is an incredible achievement. Sure, it's not the top performance for a mobile GPU, but it will do fine for 4K video production, multilayer Photoshop editing, professional multitrack DAW recording, and 1080p games without causing thermal induced fertility problems.
  2. The SSD is significantly faster than ANY current laptop (Windows or Mac). MacVidCards reported 1760MB/s sequential write speed for the 512GB capacity SSD. That is smoking!
  3. I dare say, most "pros" including myself will do absolutely fine with 16GB ram. There are a few that will need more than 16GB (but they are a small minority in the Pro landscape). For those people, Apple needs to update the Mac Pro.
  4. The touch bar will be awesome!
I didn't run away with the impression that the specs were awful in the new MBPs. However, comparing value and relative to the last models, that's been a woe for some consumers.
 
Well pointed out. You're dead one right - Apple needs to release two different models for the different classes of users. Instead they released one, and pretend, spin and price, that it's a top-end machine. It isn't. They're premium (overpriced) mid-range machines.
If you consider top-end quad-core mobile processors, the best-in-class SSD and the wide-gamut, very bright retina screen as mid-range, then you are right. But Apple has never dabbled in desktop-replacement laptops, why is it suddenly such an insult that they refuse to change that stance?
To be fair, we shouldn't be surprised - Apple's been trying to extract itself from the top-end market (I'll avoid using pro here, because it's a loaded term), for years. The trash can is vastly out of date and while a neat design, not very practical (rack mounting for example). They either need to fish or cut bait on the top end - get in the pool, or get out and tell us they're getting out.
As others have pointed out (though not necessarily in this thread), the ferocity of the discontent in the wake of the MBP release is due to an important degree upon a number of things coming to a head. A perfect storm so to speak.

It starts with the general feeling of the iPhone eclipsing the Mac, a feeling that partially would be there even if all the wished-for Mac updates were released. Just looking at the revenue distribution makes some people nervous, just experiencing the iPhone getting the stage time proportional to its sales share creates the feeling of the Mac being pushed aside. Intel's delayed releases and the moderate performance increase chip generation add a feeling of stagnation. The continued and (though not necessarily new) long release cycle of the Mac Mini, with its focus on compactness over performance and expandability, increase this feeling of the Mac line being squeezed. This all is being topped by the sorry state of the Mac Pro, from its more limited expansion options than its predecessor to the true scandal that is its lack of updates.

It is in this climate that even a one-time lengthening of the MBP release cycle from about 12 to 18 months (even though this very likely wasn't explicitly planned so), the usual pain of ports getting be replaced (a record number of which), and yet (at least) another year of RAM capacity stagnation (the 2011 MBP was the first to take 16 GB*) are causing the discontent to boil over.

*RAM limits in 15" Mac laptops:
- 2003-2006: 2 GB
- 2006: 3 GB
- 2007-2008: 6 GB
- 2008-2010: 8 GB
- 2011-today: 16 GB

(I might be a year off, the 2010 13" MBP is listed as working with 16 GB while the 2010 15" MBP only lists 8 GB.)
 
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And here you pivot again. We were talking about you calling him out for his "appeal to status".

Yeah he appealed to his status making the "it's fine for me [cause I'm pro] so it's fine" fallacy argument. What's your question? I addressed all your sniping - stop pretending there's anything left other than your resentment at the dig from earlier.
 
And what about those headphones that you plug into the Mac? You can't plug them into the iPhone. And the ones that plug into the iPhone? They don't plug into the Mac.

There's a dongle for that. As I said - more evidence that dropping the jack from the iPhone was silly.

Personally, I've got Bluetooth headphones and they're great but - guess what - they have this neat feature that if the batteries run out, or if you meet a flight attendant that doesn't know the difference between Bluetooth and cellular, you can hook up a 3.5mm cable. D'oh!
 
Professionals are (rightfully) complaining, but that won't stop the flashy Starbucks crowd from wanting the latest shiny toy.

2005 called, it wants it's Apple stereotypes back.
[doublepost=1478638523][/doublepost]I wouldn't expect those metal injection molded hinges to have yield issues. I thought it was a near perfect process, I wouldn't guess that any rejected units would contribute to a delay.
 
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But Apple has never dabbled in desktop-replacement laptops

Really? I give you the 17" MacBook Pro.

Quad i7. 3 x USB + 1xThunderbolt. Firewire. Ethernet. Audio in/out, including optical audio out. ExpressCard slot. Discrete graphics. User-upgradeable RAM and HD. Optical drive that could (unofficially) be replaced with more HD.

...and still thinner and lighter that PC "desktop replacements".

They don't make 'em like that any more (luckily - because the GPU tends to fall off. Nobody's perfect.)
 
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If everyone is hating the new MacBook pro, then who's buying it.
Very little are buying.

This whole ad is backed (financed) by Apple to all news sites to spew reverse psychology.

This is Apple's way of using psychology on everyone not sharp enough to see what really is happening behind the curtains. If everybody thinks there are lots and lots being sold (SO MANY) that APPLE had to tell all SUPPLIERS to expect STRONG shipments etc etc... Then what are you going to think? Hmm,,, is there something wrong with me? Why do I not like this? When everybody is buying? Maybe I am being to harsh, let me just pull the trigger and join the illusionary group of lovers of handicapped machines..... why not! They are selling so much and will sell SO much, the only problem here is me.


I don't believe not ONE Effing word of it. And to the ones buying,,, cheers!!
 
Very little are buying.

This whole ad is backed (financed) by Apple to all news sites to spew reverse psychology.

This is Apple's way of using psychology on everyone not sharp enough to see what really is happening behind the curtains. If everybody thinks there are lots and lots being sold (SO MANY) that APPLE had to tell all SUPPLIERS to expect STRONG shipments etc etc... Then what are you going to think? Hmm,,, is there something wrong with me? Why do I not like this? When everybody is buying? Maybe I am being to harsh, let me just pull the trigger and join the illusionary group of lovers of handicapped machines..... why not! They are selling so much and will sell SO much, the only problem here is me.

I don't believe not ONE Effing word of it. And to the ones buying,,, cheers!!


Don Draper is that you?
 
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They're huge "asides".

But industry-leading storage speed, industrial design, I/O power, screen quality and color reproduction, speakers system pop to mind.

They're insignificant asides. A toy emoji bar and thinness at the cost of everything on a "pro" machine.

Now, industry leading storage....maybe if you're drunk enough on koolaid, but the Samsung 960 Pro SSD does 3500MB/s and is $330 for 512 gig. Apple is not industry leading there.

Industrial design is ugly. Compared to machines like the Razer Blade and steath, the new mac is the ugly duckling.

Screen quality is trailing, when most high end laptops are 4k IPS devices. And those anemic speakers are a bad joke compared to any $1500+ PC.
 
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...The bigger issue is that apple cannot get the enterprise/finance side of business, and Microsoft is heading straight into creative in a big way. If Microsoft bites into creative, apple has a bigger problem. Most companies would much rather have one computer system with support and compatibility rather than one for finance/books and one for creative. Apple has grown complacent, and Microsoft is getting a serious look from artists of all stripes.

Agreed, although it isn't just MS: Apple is reportedly getting their butt kicked in EDU sales from Google.

-hh
 
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Ok, for all you apologists out there, In order to make it more sleek and stylish, the new Mac Mini will be a solid metal cube with no ports whatsoever. Figure that one out.
 
See here's the thing. It doesn't have to be an either or situation. If you're smart about designing the machine you can actually have your cake AND eat it.

Making the machine 2mm thicker and including a mix of current and future ports would have satisfied the needs of the vast majority of customers in nearly all situations, instead of only a certain segment at a time. That is what separates good industrial design from mediocre.
The point is that once you have bought new cables and dongles, the machine will still be as thin and light (and new cables don't weight more than the old cables and adding a dongle or two won't change the weight in any material way). We had this situation when DVI went away, when FW800, Ethernet, and MagSafe 1 went away. Every time the newer port could emulate the older and then some. This time it is four things going away (mDP/TB2, USB-A, MagSafe 2, SD card) with only MagSafe not being able to be fully emulated.

Apple 'has to' make a laptop that is attractive by being light and thin as well as powerful. Laptops have been getting thinner and lighter since the beginning of (laptop) time. Apple has to compete against thin and light laptops from PC makers as well as to offer incentives to existing MBP users. Whenever there is a change, not all existing users will consider the change to be progress, but as long a clear majority does, you are doing the right thing.

Not offering a USB-A port, is only partly a design decision (symmetry, thickness). It is also decision to rather offer four faster ports than three faster and two slower ports (allocating PCIe lanes). And it is a statement to appear 'futuristic' (for lack of a better term) and to force people to move faster than they otherwise would.
The entry level 13 inch only has two USB-C ports and no magsafe, which will quite often put the user in a 'pick two out of three' situation. If you want to plug the machine into a monitor AND and attach an external drive you can suddenly no longer charge it. Or you can charge it, but need to drop the monitor or external drive. We can complicate this even more if at the same time you also decide to charge your phone, which is about to run out of juice or offload an SD card. So, your choice is to compromise and be inconvenienced or buy a dongle to bandaid a poor design decision.
Again, Apple considers upgrading to a USB-C/TB monitor (ie, monitor that acts as a USB-C hub) or adding a USB-C (or TB) hub to your monitor as being a better experience for you. That being said, having only two USB-C/TB3 ports on the entry-level 13" MBP does seem like a segmentation choice (the 15-W TDP chipset has the same number of PCIe lanes as the 28-W TDP chipset in more expensive 13" MBP).
[doublepost=1478639796][/doublepost]
Aah, good.
Do you know if this is a global feature or if this can be configured depending on the application in use?
You can certainly set it system-wide to be always on. Whether you can set it system-wide with exceptions for selected applications, I don't know (and we'll likely won't know this until the first review units ship).
 
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Really? I give you the 17" MacBook Pro.

Quad i7. 3 x USB + 1xThunderbolt. Firewire. Ethernet. Audio in/out, including optical audio out. ExpressCard slot. Discrete graphics. User-upgradeable RAM and HD. Optical drive that could (unofficially) be replaced with more HD.
That is one more USB port than 15" MBP of its time. Otherwise the connection and expansion options are identical. What has shifted since then is expansion moving to external devices (TB in itself and then a second TB port in 2012) and to wireless becoming more powerful. The optical drive bay being used for other things was an accidental option, not something Apple designed to be there.

But in regard to CPU choice, graphic card choice nothing really has changed since (in relative terms to what is available on the market) and in regard to device thinness, Apple was always at the lower end of what others offered.
 
Yeah that - OR... your "it works for me so it's fine" argument is crap.

And the "it doesn't work for me" argument is orders of magnitude more valid :D

These new machines appear to be amazing. In my opinion it's a further sign of the ever sickening entitlement culture that some pros (lol) are having a heart attack about a computer they have not seen, let alone used.

But I need the PRO for my WORKFLOW, BRO.

Hilarious.
 
They are relying mostly on their ecosystem more than the device itself, the hardest decision is to leave the MacOS for most of the people (it is for me)

and yet I will wait, cause moving to Windows powered machine is the only other option I have right now.
 
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...Everybody is looking at the touch-bar-less model and noting that it is $500 more expensive than the 13" MBA and thus while spec-wise it could be considered to be a retina MBA, price-wise it is a big jump. But the $999 13" MBA has 128 GB of storage. If you increase that to 256 GB, the amount that comes in the base model of the touch-bar-less MBP, that price goes up to $1299. In other words, the retina screen 'only' adds $200 once you equalise storage.

A fair enough point, but even though we're locked into an Apple Monopoly for such upgrades, using Apple's retail prices to do so ... particularly when cross-shopping ... is problematic.

Case in point: your number shows that Apple is charging $300 for that +128GB SSD upsize, whereas the street (retail) price for a 128GB MBA blade is currently only $60, which means that there's a $240 "Apple Tax" on this feature normalization. As such, the alternative view is that this upgraded MBA should really only cost around $1060, not $1300, so the remaining differentiation feature (the retina screen) isn't really a $200 premium, but a $460 premium.

Considering that one can buy an entire iPad for around that same price ... and an iPad consists of a lot more stuff than merely a screen (and its a touchscreen at that), I find it difficult to claim that a non-touchscreen retina display for +$460 is a reasonable value. YMMV, of course.

-hh
 
I've lived 10 years in Shenzhen and Shanghai and approx 90% of the macs I have seen ran Windows. Yes it's a generalization, but based on experience.
I was asked by a couple of my Chinese friends to setup windows on their macs too.
Part of the reason was / is that Chinese online banking security USB sticks have drivers for windows only and also popular Chinese programs like QQ did have a windows only version for a long time.

I've lived all over China and am currently in Beijing. I've experienced the same thing. I wish they had Apple drivers for online banking.
 
Ok, for all you apologists out there, In order to make it more sleek and stylish, the new Mac Mini will be a solid metal cube with no ports whatsoever. Figure that one out.
For many users the Mac Mini was a cheaper option than the Mac Pro, iMac and MBP. For Apple is was that partially to, but also a compact stylish, entry-level option. Apple partially designed the Mac Mini because it looked cool but most users bought because it was the most bang for the buck. That difference in vision between Apple and its customers (in regard to this product) was bound to clash.

Note there was only one model year in the Intel era where the Mac mini had a discrete graphic card (not counting the NVIDEA chipset era where the graphic card was part of the chipset). And only two model years (2011 & 2012) when the Mac Mini was offered with a quad-core processor. Which was at a time when they still offered a server version. Running a dedicated OS X server fell more and more out of fashion for various reasons (standalone NAS system being one of them).
 
I disagree with you on this point. I don't think the new Pros have that many short comings. The change to 'USB C only' was inevitable after what they did with the 12"MB. I criticise them for not including dongles to connect USB A/B to C. All of their other products still use USB A/B including the iPhone launched the week before. They removed the headphone jack for that AND provided a dongle. They should have provided dongles with the new MBPs.

I don't think the MBP has any other shortcomings. The screen is better, the processor is as good as those on competing laptops, and as others have pointed out to give a 32GB option would negatively impact battery life, which has dropped from 12 to 10 hours already. The battery drop is disappointing, but I wouldn't say it's a short coming. That is still a full day's charge.

I've seen a touch-bar-less model in store and they are very impressive. But the price. That's a real issue. This was an incremental increase in processing power and customer utility. It should have been an incremental price increase, not their usual hike.

Moving to USB-C was not a surprise to anyone - but USB-C ONLY seemed a step too far for many. Bear in mind these are supposed to be Pro machines, so they should be set apart from the consumer-oriented MacBook models.

If I compare it to my current 15-inch MacBook Pro, Late 2011 model for example. For starters, it has no less than 10 ports, not 4 like the 2016 MacBook Pro. (MagSafe, Ethernet, Firewire 800, Thunderbolt, 2 x USB, SD-Card slot, 3.5mm Audio In & Out including optical in/out, DVD/CD burner, Kensington lock, and Infrared). I consider the lack of ports on the 2016 model a serious downgrade. Even though I welcome the benefits of USB-C, they do not make up for lack of all these ports alone. Even as multi-use ports that can be adapted to individual requirements, the fact that I only have 4 to start with is problematic. - These ports are precious! - Why would I want to 'waste' one of these hi-speed ports to do something as mundane as charging, or as lowly as reading an SD card? Surely sticking a couple of regular USB ports on there wouldn't be too much to ask? It almost seems inevitable that this thing needs to be paired with a Thunderbolt dock of some description to bring back the connectivity that has been lost as a result.

My 2011 Macbook Pro allows me to upgrade both the Hard drive and the RAM. I consider that a major plus point. I originally bought the base model with 4GB RAM, and 500 GB drive. Since then I have upgraded the RAM to 16GB, and replaced the hard drive with a SSD after a hard drive failure. This brings me to my next point. - I refuse to pay Apple's over-inflated prices for RAM and storage. Deliberately making the base configuration so poorly spec'ed, then soldering these components into the machine and then charging the prices they do is nothing short of extortion. This has nothing to do with designing for user experience, not price. I can't think of one good reason to why Apple memory and storage is so highly priced, other than locking users in for pure profit. - What happens in case of data corruption or hard drive failure? - A whole logic board replacement becomes necessary! This is definitely a downgrade as far as the end user is concerned.

Losing innovative features like MagSafe are a big deal. I've owned Apple laptops before MagSafe was invented, that have been damaged due to someone tripping over the power chord. Since it's invention I've still had many close calls - but MagSafe has saved the day, and performed what it was designed to do.

Apple has been gradually removing ports, reducing functionality, and further locking users into their increasingly closed business model. Now the price has increased, the expandability has been diminished with no upgrade path whatsoever. Then now with the aggressive pushing of free system updates Apple can also plan for your machine's obsolescence too. These machines (although expensive) used to be a worthwhile investment, that with a bit of care would provide many years of useful service. Now these machines seem to be an expensive liability, that may sway the balance against purchasing these machines for many people. I know I haven't purchased another Apple machine past the 2012 models, due to the lack of upgradeability alone. Lack of ports and expandability options is just yet another reason to give these 2016 models a miss.
 
If you get the chance you should look at the spec page: 4x TB3 (40Gb/s); USB 3.1 Gen 2 at 10Gb/s; SSDs using PCIe 3 at 3.1GB/s; faster RAM than you find in most high end laptops; greater colour gamut using P3 on a very good monitor. In particular the 4x TB3 ports and support for 2x 5K monitors puts the MBP in a class by itself. Don't worry, the industry will catch up and if the original iMac is any indication it will happen faster than anyone expects.

The ports are the biggest weakness. Maybe it's the right choice for 2018, but for a 2016 laptop, the ports are a disaster and when you're looking at a computer, you have to look at what you can do with it now.

Their SSD is slower than what you can get for PC laptops, The faster SSD is much cheaper in PC laptops, and easily replaceable and upgradable in the PC. Plus even though the PC is already faster for SSD, it will be very easy to next year's even faster SSD models to work with a windows laptop you buy today.

In terms of ram, the new macbook uses ancient DDR3, which also implies they're using an ancient chipset to support it.

The screen is crap too considering any PC laptop near the price range gives you a 4k display.

And the 2x 5k monitor thing is a joke that takes a lot of Kool-Aid to swallow. Who cares how many pixels a video chip can spit out, what counts is what it has the processing speed to handle. A 5k display needs 880megapixels/sec at 60 Hz. A GeForce 1070 can pump 97 gigapixels/second, so by Apple's metric, it can power over 100 5k monitors at 60 Hz. Right? That's Apple's display math.
 
So. Summary. Only in my humble opinion, of course;

49% of the internet whiners can't afford one. The other 49% would never have bought one even if it wiped their arse with quilted toilet paper, and was free.

The remaining 2% (the majority of normal buyers) who can afford one, and don't expect the entire Universe to owe them a living, will buy one.

Apple is doomed! ;)
 
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