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I already destroyed your legal ignorance in another thread.
PS: the simple legal argument that a 3-year-old can understand.
1. App Store is different from iOS
2. Forcing people to use App Store on iOS is anti-competitive conduct and illegal per se in violation of Sherman Antitrust Act

Let’s see where this goes, wih some actual LEGAL PRECEDENT!

AT&T were sued using Sherman for excessively charging downstream DSL prices and putting third party suppliers in an Brooke(Pacific Bell Telephone Co. v. linkLine Communications, Inc., 555 U.S. 438 (2009))

The court looked into two tests, Trinko (Verizon Communications Inc. v. Law Offices of Curtis V. Trinko, LLP) and Brooke (Brooke Group Ltd. v. Brown & Williamson Tobacco Corp)

Brooke has one requirements "predatory pricing: below-cost retail pricing and a “ ‘dangerous probability’ ” that the defendant will recoup any lost profits"

As for Trinko, the court ruled that "A price-squeeze claim may not be brought under §2 when the defendant has no antitrust duty to deal with the plaintiff at wholesale."

In additionUnited States v. Colgate & Co was used to examine if Business are allowed to decide who they do, and don't want to deal with. The requirement here is if this decision would run afoul of the Brooke Test.

Granted Aspen Skiing Co.v. Aspen Highlands Skiing Corp. could be used to claim antitrust activity, but again Brooke comes into play and that's, as we've already seen, requires an accusation of predatory pricing.

I'd type more but I'm on my phone and it's hard work distilling a supreme court ruling using a smartphone keyboard.

Upshot of all this: No violation of Sherman was found. SCOTUS ruling - 2009.

Now, would you still like to Continue to accuse me of being ignorant, or shall we continue discussing case law were you now bring up a ruling that supports your point of view?
 
I already destroyed your legal ignorance in another thread.
PS: the simple legal argument that a 3-year-old can understand.
1. App Store is different from iOS
2. Forcing people to use App Store on iOS is anti-competitive conduct and illegal per se in violation of Sherman Antitrust Act
My Tesla has an operating system that runs on the center console. It only supports Spotify. Spotify is different than The Tesla. Therefore Apple can sue Tesla for not supporting Apple Music?

Your leap from point 1 to point 2 is missing a lot of steps, and makes no legal sense.
 
Let’s see where this goes, wih some actual LEGAL PRECEDENT!

We have have an even better, more direct precedent involving Apple! PyStar argued that Apple requiring macOS be run only on Apple hardware was illegal tying (essentially the argument @Reindeer_Legal is making vis a vis the App Store and iOS/iPadOS/tvOS/WatchOS) yet:

For this reason, the Pystar court held that a relevant market limited to the Mac OS was an improper, single-brand market, and dismissed tying claims based on Apple requiring only the Mac OS to be used on Apple computers.

I'd type more but I'm on my phone and it's hard work distilling a supreme court ruling using a smartphone keyboard.

If it were not for the iPhone Monopoly on design, you would still have a physical keyboard like on your Blackberry.

Upshot of all this: No violation of Sherman was found. SCOTUS ruling - 2009.

I am going to anticipate the response. None of that matters, Apple's App Store is still a monopoly. I talked to Chief Justice Roberts and all the members of the court and they promised me they would rule that was. At some point in the future. I know it. Really.

Now, would you still like to Continue to accuse me of being ignorant, or shall we continue discussing case law were you now bring up a ruling that supports your point of view?

I am not a lawyer, but I read a lot of case law. Not sure if you are a lawyer, but it seems you do as well. @cmaier is not a lawyer, but he created an account on here many years ago with the name of a noted patent attorney and chip designer as part of a long con on which he is just not executing (long joke from another thread).
 
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I already destroyed your legal ignorance in another thread.
PS: the simple legal argument that a 3-year-old can understand.
1. App Store is different from iOS
2. Forcing people to use App Store on iOS is anti-competitive conduct and illegal per se in violation of Sherman Antitrust Act
1. Completely wrong. iOS is what it is because Apple have certain standards. In order to meet those requirements Apple imposes certain requirements and limits to what can go on the phone. Opening iOS to 3rd party app stores would defeat Apple's vertically integrated business model.
2. Complete nonsense.
 
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This is my take on the situation. I'm a 3P seller on Amazon.com. For everything I sell on THEIR platform, Amazon typically takes 15% of the selling price. I gladly pay this because of the exposure that Amazon gives to the product I sell. They also have rules in place where you can't direct customers to other websites to purchase. If caught your 3P selling account can be terminated. I view the Apple App Store in similar light. Epic games is benefiting by Apple's platform and exposure. They should not be allowed to skirt the payment process. When that occurs, Epic games or any other developer benefits 100% from Apple platform without having to pay for it. Developers are paying for the retail space by paying the 30%.
At least you have the option to sell the product on your own website. Imagine if you only had two options to sell a product, it's either Ebay or Amazon, they take 30% no matter what.
 
At least you have the option to sell the product on your own website. Imagine if you only had two options to sell a product, it's either Ebay or Amazon, they take 30% no matter what.

As as does Epic. For multi-platform in app purchases (like V-Bucks), one can sell on one's own website, one simply cannot direct users to that website from within the app.
 
I am not a lawyer, but I read a lot of case law. Not sure if you are a lawyer, but it seems you do as well

Don't even play one on TV. That said I do find debating subjects to be a fascinating way to force yourself to learn about a subject.

Like everyone I have opinions, and sometimes those opinions are even based upon facts. The one thing I cannot abide though is being "educated" by someone who's basing everything they say on an opinion and refuses to actually research the validity of that opinion.

Sure, everyone here is an armchair lawyer (at best), but the great thing about life today is this thing called "the internet" that allows folk to perform independent research so that can then be used debate more coherently, and, dare I say, potentially with some facts.

Or they can just repeat the same lazy uneducated nonsense ad infinitum...
 
Don't even play one on TV. That said I do find debating subjects to be a fascinating way to force yourself to learn about a subject.

Like everyone I have opinions, and sometimes those opinions are even based upon facts. The one thing I cannot abide though is being "educated" by someone who's basing everything they say on an opinion and refuses to actually research the validity of that opinion.

Sure, everyone here is an armchair lawyer (at best), but the great thing about life today is this thing called "the internet" that allows folk to perform independent research so that can then be used debate more coherently, and, dare I say, potentially with some facts.

Or they can just repeat the same lazy uneducated nonsense ad infinitum...
There are some actual lawyers around here, but I’m sure all of them would agree that they don’t offer legal advice in message forums, and nothing they should be considered to be advice.
 
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This is my take on the situation. I'm a 3P seller on Amazon.com. For everything I sell on THEIR platform, Amazon typically takes 15% of the selling price. I gladly pay this because of the exposure that Amazon gives to the product I sell. They also have rules in place where you can't direct customers to other websites to purchase. If caught your 3P selling account can be terminated. I view the Apple App Store in similar light. Epic games is benefiting by Apple's platform and exposure. They should not be allowed to skirt the payment process. When that occurs, Epic games or any other developer benefits 100% from Apple platform without having to pay for it. Developers are paying for the retail space by paying the 30%.


That's the best example somebody in here posted. Thanks!




You're 100% right with "I view the Apple App Store in similar light." 🤣
 
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If only Apple stopped interfering with Epic and allowed users to install apps directly. Apple doesn't get to forcefully charge somebody for a service they didn't ask in the first place!
Do you have any idea at all how apps work? Don't pollute this thread with more ignorance.
They aren’t interfering. And you can install apps directly. EPIC gives their app away free of charge, why not allow users to install it themselves then. GitHub/Xcode is also free. Just download and compile. Very normal on many nix systems. Alternatively package it as a pwa and install it that way.

Or play by the rules, distribute the free app via the App Store, and users buy their v bucks direct from the EPIC website.

There are options 👍
 
As as does Epic. For multi-platform in app purchases (like V-Bucks), one can sell on one's own website, one simply cannot direct users to that website from within the app.
Because of the ridiculous cut. I'm hoping for lower fees for all developers once this ends.
 
Because of the ridiculous cut. I'm hoping for lower fees for all developers once this ends.
Nope, they do that so it is linked to your EPIC account and make them and the purchases available cross platform.

I can totally appreciate they they would want the impulse buyers to buy them directly within the game. And that option is there as well, but then have to give a percentage to the facilitator. Surely it’s a business decision whether that is worth it or not. I guess it is as otherwise they wouldn’t be making such a big deal about it. So wouldn’t you rather have 70% of a lot of sales versus 100% of a much smaller amount of sales?
 
Because of the ridiculous cut. I'm hoping for lower fees for all developers once this ends.
You feel this cut is ridiculous based on what? Epic tried to get people to side load Fortnite and even as motivated as they were (one could not even buy it in the Google Play Store), they could get get enough customers to do it to make it worth remaining out of the store. In addition, even in those cases where developers charged more for purchases/subscriptions via the App Store or Google Play stores, they still had a significant percentage of people who valued their time/privacy/security more and purchased it that way anyway. Epic can run adds, send email, hold press conferences, etc. to let people know that they can buy their appropriated dance moves from their own store. If they are not getting enough people to go there, it seems pretty clear that the 30% take is reasonable.
 
The exposure to potential clients was enormous. People are waking up to the problem that a platform seeks absolute control over the producer to client interaction.

What has changed since the beginning of App Store? The exposure is getting bigger (over 1.4B iOS devices) the 30% cut hasn’t changed and consistent with other app stores. $38B was paid out to developers in 2019.
I already destroyed your legal ignorance in another thread.
PS: the simple legal argument that a 3-year-old can understand.
1. App Store is different from iOS
2. Forcing people to use App Store on iOS is anti-competitive conduct and illegal per se in violation of Sherman Antitrust Act

Apple put forth reasonable arguments, with precedents, why they think the store is not in violation of anti-trust acts.


Until a court rules Apple is in violation, there is nothing unlawful. Epic wasn’t granted a TRO, so clearly their argument wasn’t compelling enough for the judge presiding.
 
Nope, they do that so it is linked to your EPIC account and make them and the purchases available cross platform.

I can totally appreciate they they would want the impulse buyers to buy them directly within the game. And that option is there as well, but then have to give a percentage to the facilitator. Surely it’s a business decision whether that is worth it or not. I guess it is as otherwise they wouldn’t be making such a big deal about it. So wouldn’t you rather have 70% of a lot of sales versus 100% of a much smaller amount of sales?
This stems from the high fees. The 30% will eventually go down at some point, someone has to put up a fight.
 
You're 100% right with "I view the Apple App Store in similar light." 🤣

These cases all argue that Amazon illegally undercuts its competitors prices (in theory that eventually they will control enough of the market that they will be able to use their monopoly power to raise prices). So if I understand you correctly, you are seeking higher prices? Do you shop at Amazon or do you actively seek to pay more to support its competitors?
 
This stems from the high fees. The 30% will eventually go down at some point, someone has to put up a fight.
Perhaps it is justified when it actually brings in the customers ;) At the moment it comes across like EPIC doesn't get the customers without this presence, yet at the same time they aren't willing to pay for the benefits that it brings.
 
I wonder what Apple’s response would be if major retailers like Walmart and Amazon started demanding a piece of the action on any app store sales for iOS devices sold in their stores.
Not really much wondering to be done. Like any responsible companies, it would start with negotiation, they would hammer out terms and come to a binding agreement. What that agreement would be, can’t say, but it would be sufficient for all parties. Yeah, boring answer, but b2b stuff is generally boring stuff.
 
Perhaps it is justified when it actually brings in the customers ;) At the moment it comes across like EPIC doesn't get the customers without this presence, yet at the same time they aren't willing to pay for the benefits that it brings.
It goes both ways. Apple would be nothing without Apps developers.
 
It goes both ways. Apple would be nothing without Apps developers.
Sure, don't disagree with that at all. Just look at the poor Windows phone. I thought it was great, but it was abandoned by developers.

It is always a balancing act, a nice shopping mall is nothing without a critical mass of good name shops, but good name shops won't be there if the shopping mall can't deliver the right kind of punter. Apple delivers the right kind of punter undeniably, the kind that actually spends money on apps. Thus it is lucrative for developers large and small to sell apps to that audience. 30% is not much at all considering the willing paying audience that is provided. But if it is, then fine, anyone is free to go elsewhere or sell direct.
 
Once again you are missing the whole point... the problem is you are only able to download on apple ONE way digitally, whereas every single other store allows multiple options whether it be physical or digital.
Depending on the system you buy (and, you get a price break when you buy those specific systems), you can only acquire software digitally, through their stores. And, it’s all in how you define the market. The market in my example is “digital downloads through the Sony Playstation Store to Sony Playstation brand game consoles”. The market in your example is “digital downloads through the Apple App Store to Apple iOS/iPadOS devices”.

If you redefine your market without using Apple’s trademarked product names, then I’ll redefine my market without using Sony’s trademarked product names :)
 
Apple put forth reasonable arguments, with precedents, why they think the store is not in violation of anti-trust acts

Until a court rules Apple is in violation, there is nothing unlawful. Epic wasn’t granted a TRO, so clearly their argument wasn’t compelling enough for the judge presiding.
The reasonable arguments have not been made as the actual trial has not started, you only barely had so back and forth between Apple counsel and Judge against % and alternatives. This discussed in length has not occurred. Anything about this earlier with congress is irrelevant.

EPIC was granted a partial TRO, allowed on unreal engine being impacted, not granted against EPIC Fornite argument.
 
This stems from the high fees. The 30% will eventually go down at some point, someone has to put up a fight.
That is the majority of EPIC goal in this trial. It will be challenging as so many store are the same. They are attempting to challenge this general percentage taken by challenging Apple and Google in court.
 
These cases all argue that Amazon illegally undercuts its competitors prices (in theory that eventually they will control enough of the market that they will be able to use their monopoly power to raise prices). So if I understand you correctly, you are seeking higher prices? Do you shop at Amazon or do you actively seek to pay more to support its competitors?

I always avoided ordering on Amazon as much I can, I usually seek local "offline" stores, but I admit corona forced me to buy a few more stuff online, because all the local offline stores were closed, but I rarely ordered on Amazon.
Now, since the local offline stores re-opened, I avoid online shopping even more, to support these local "offline" stores, this helps to keep people employed. Yes local offline shops prices are often higher than online prices, but i don't want to end in a abandoned city, that's one my contributions and can't be wrong.

2 Amazon: It's not about higher or lower prices, Amazon should not dictate any prices, it's up to the seller to set prices and up to the customer to buy it or not. But thats just one of the issues.

2 Apple: More or less the same, it's not up to Apple to dictate prices, as they currently also do. Apple goes even further and also dictates, that you're not allowed to offer cheaper prices on your own non-apple related website. But that's just one of the issues, too.

Both companies facing antitrust for good, and I hope both companies faceplants and break all their teeths.

And what I hate most, are these people who goes to a local "offline" store, checks something out, a gadget whatever, then goes away and order it online, because it's 5-10€ cheaper there. That's just asocial.
 
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Perhaps it is justified when it actually brings in the customers ;) At the moment it comes across like EPIC doesn't get the customers without this presence, yet at the same time they aren't willing to pay for the benefits that it brings.
Another goal for EPIC to prove in the trial , how app stores become a locked environment to third party access. You have these very large customer base, but you don't have much choice on how you can access them and sell your products.
 
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