Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

[Michael Scrip]

More information just came out from Epic. The salient points:
1) 350 million registered users.
2) Signifiant number are on iOS, almost a third (probably explains why they are going after Apple first - this is possibly their most lucrative market).
3) Almost ⅔ of iOS users access Fortnite only via their smartphone, so Epic risks losing them forever as a (paying) customer. This would represent a 20% dip in total user numbers.
4) Apple is reportedly preparing to blacklist them for at least a year.

You have made your bed, Epic, now sleep in it.

Interesting... that's the complete opposite of a study of battle-royale games done just a year ago.

It was a study of Fortnite, PUBG, and Apex Legends:

Newzoo’s Battle Royale Sentiment Study: Understanding the Phenomena and What Draws Players to Particular Franchises | Newzoo

Get insights into battle royale franchise loyalty, what made people start or stop playing, and more! Based on research in China, the U.S. & Germany.

newzoo.com

"In fact, more than two-fifths of all U.S. gamers are an active battle royale player (played one of the three franchises above in the past month), with 71% playing mainly on console, 17% on PC, and 12% on mobile"

If Epic's data is true... then being banned from Apple's App Store is a devastating blow.

But like you said... they did it to themselves!

 

[Maximara]

More information just came out from Epic.

Read Epic’s new, full argument why a court should force Apple to reinstate Fortnite

We’ll see if the judge is swayed on September 28th

www.theverge.com

The salient points:
1) 350 million registered users.
2) Signifiant number are on iOS, almost a third (probably explains why they are going after Apple first - this is possibly their most lucrative market).
3) Almost ⅔ of iOS users access Fortnite only via their smartphone, so Epic risks losing them forever as a (paying) customer. This would represent a 20% dip in total user numbers.
4) Apple is reportedly preparing to blacklist them for at least a year.

You have made your bed, Epic, now sleep in it.

Right, One-third is not a monopoly. Epic is straw grasping. Or using Hollywood/Enron accountants

 

[Realityck]

Awful lot of exhibit pdfs been added today for case, see Epic Games, Inc. v. Apple Inc. (4:20-cv-05640) sort by descending. Yes dated 9/5

 

[TiggrToo]

However, what right does Apple have to reach outside of its store and dictate to companies the prices of items/services within their applications delivered by other platforms/stores/services?

Probably

a) They agreed to it by creating a developer account and published apps through it and
b) Because Google, Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo ALSO have rules on what developers can, and cannot do, through their respective app stores.

 

[TiggrToo]

More information just came out from Epic.

Read Epic’s new, full argument why a court should force Apple to reinstate Fortnite

We’ll see if the judge is swayed on September 28th

www.theverge.com

The salient points:
1) 350 million registered users.
2) Signifiant number are on iOS, almost a third (probably explains why they are going after Apple first - this is possibly their most lucrative market).
3) Almost ⅔ of iOS users access Fortnite only via their smartphone, so Epic risks losing them forever as a (paying) customer. This would represent a 20% dip in total user numbers.
4) Apple is reportedly preparing to blacklist them for at least a year.

You have made your bed, Epic, now sleep in it.

Really can’t see this going their way given that Apple has continued to make it clear that if Epic roll back the latest change then they’d be back.

And if the numbers are correct (which I doubt myself) then they were even bigger fools to do what they did.

Far better would have been to launch legal action whilst still obeying the rules. That would have given them the upper hand. And 70% of something as opposed to the 100% of nothing they’re currently getting.

 

[Alan Wynn]

Really can’t see this going their way given that Apple has continued to make it clear that if Epic roll back the latest change then they’d be back.

Actually, I am not sure if Apple will reinstate them after they were banned because of their actions, even if they were to offer to revert to a non-violating version, as they would not trust them to do it again.

And if the numbers are correct (which I doubt myself) then they were even bigger fools to do what they did.

If they lose (which seems likely), they will have really hurt themselves. If this goes on for more than a few months, players will find other things to do and may not return.

Far better would have been to launch legal action whilst still obeying the rules. That would have given them the upper hand. And 70% of something as opposed to the 100% of nothing they’re currently getting.

Yes, but that would have eliminated what they expected was their loudest/most important asset, 150 million users. If those people really do not move to other platforms, Epic is in real trouble, in that they have severed these customers' link to the game and many will just find other games to play/other ways to connect with their friends. The longer it goes on the most lasting the damage will be.

 

[robvalentine]

Depending on the costs of hosting, advertising, support explaining to your users how do do it, etc., might not be much less than 30%.



Of course it is. That is why piracy is so high, however, given that Epic with a highly motivated set of users could not make a go of it, I am not sure how much more than 0% of legitimate apps it it.



You did it as a user, or as a developer? If as a user, how many paid apps did you side load? If as a developer, what were your sales (order of magnitude is fine), and why did you choose to deliver your app that way?

Without much more data, your single anecdote does not tell me the percentage is above 0.0% (there are several billion android devices - to make the math easy we will say 2 billion, so if there were not 2 million users side loading, you have not exceeded 0.0%).



I hate to break it do you, but I am totally happy that there is an alternative to iOS/iPadOS/tvOS/watchOS, I just do not want to live in it, nor have Apple’s ecosystem change to be like it.

on Samsung phones for example there is the galaxy store, so there's an alternative to side loading straight away. Other brands may have their own stores, who knows.

If you could have steam or an equivalent on iOS then this case would be moot. Yes they would charge a percentage, but if it was 20% then there's your competition. Apple would be free to charge 30%, but they obviously don't want to lose their monopoly. This is why I bought a windows PC instead of the new macbook pro, and I am strongly thinking of android for my next phone because Apple haven't really done alot with their products recently.

 

[Maximara]

on Samsung phones for example there is the galaxy store, so there's an alternative to side loading straight away. Other brands may have their own stores, who knows.

If you could have steam or an equivalent on iOS then this case would be moot. Yes they would charge a percentage, but if it was 20% then there's your competition. Apple would be free to charge 30%, but they obviously don't want to lose their monopoly. This is why I bought a windows PC instead of the new macbook pro, and I am strongly thinking of android for my next phone because Apple haven't really done alot with their products recently.

Steam Mobile says hello there. And don't waste our time with the Steam Link FUD tap dance.

Nevermind that one can install programs via the provided browser. There is no monopoly.

 

[robvalentine]

Steam Mobile says hello there. And don't waste our time with the Steam Link FUD tap dance.

Nevermind that one can install programs via the provided browser. There is no monopoly. What is it going to take to get that through the Epic supporter's thick heads?

I think you will find there is a monopoly l, hence the whole lawsuit.

 

[D4vidrim]

I think you will find there is a monopoly l, hence the whole lawsuit.

Can you buy a different phone? Yes
Can you buy Fortnite on a different platform? Yes
Can Apple prevent you from playing Fortnite in every phone and in any platform? Nope

No monopoly to be seen here, sorry.
Unless you think there is a monopoly on lemon juice, cause you can only make lemon juice through lemons...

 

[Andropov]

This is why I bought a windows PC instead of the new macbook pro, and I am strongly thinking of android for my next phone because Apple haven't really done alot with their products recently.

You bought a windows PC instead of a MacBook because of the % comission they take on the iOS App Store?

I think you will find there is a monopoly l, hence the whole lawsuit.
Classy move calling me 1) an epic supporter, and 2) epic supporters (let’s call em free market supporters) thick.

Non sequitur.

 

[D4vidrim]

on Samsung phones for example there is the galaxy store, so there's an alternative to side loading straight away. Other brands may have their own stores, who knows.

Exactly: who knows. Meaning: nobody cares!
You have competition because you can get different apps, not because you can get the same apps on different stores on the same phone. Different stores only means different companies might get a cut of the cake, but you, as a consumer, wouldn't have any benefit.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Can you buy a different phone? Yes
Can you buy Fortnite on a different platform? Yes
Can Apple prevent you from playing Fortnite in every phone and in any platform? Nope

No monopoly to be seen here, sorry.
Unless you think there is a monopoly on lemon juice, cause you can only make lemon juice through lemons...

Indeed. And before EPIC pulled their stunt you could buy v bucks from their website as well. Didn’t have to use the in app purchase.

 

[cmaier]

I think you will find there is a monopoly l, hence the whole lawsuit.

As the courts have already said, you can’t have a monopoly in your own product.

 

[deevey]

Indeed. And before EPIC pulled their stunt you could buy v bucks from their website as well. Didn’t have to use the in app purchase.

I guess they should have paid, I dunno .... maybe 30% of the fee on marketing

 

[robvalentine]

You bought a windows PC instead of a MacBook because of the % comission they take on the iOS App Store?



Non sequitur.

No I bought a pc because it offered better value and more freedom.
[automerge]1599572418[/automerge]
to all the blinkered apple fans please note all the authorities around the world looking into Apple's app store policies.

Case rested.

 

[cmaier]

No I bought a pc because it offered better value and more freedom.
[automerge]1599572418[/automerge]
to all the blinkered apple fans please note all the authorities around the world looking into Apple's app store policies.

Case rested.

Awesome! and you were able to achieve that solution without a court requiring a mac to be just like a pc!

 

[TiggrToo]

to all the blinkered apple fans please note all the authorities around the world looking into Apple's app store policies.

They can look all they want.

However I’ve lost track how many such investigations have yielded very little actual change.

Money talks and in a day and age where governments are strapped for cash I can see more of the “you pay us more money and we’ll drop the investigations” than I can otherwise.

I used to believe these investigations meant change. Time and experience has taught me otherwise.

 

[avkills]

The monopoly argument is stupid. I am viewing it more from a perspective of Epic wants their own store able to be installed on iOS; pretty sure Epic does not care about the 30% cut either. Who knows if that is doable with the current APIs of the platform, but it seems like it should be.

How I see this playing out in the long game:

Epic is going to lose.
Epic is going to stop development of Unreal Engine for iOS and macOS. Epic could add into their development rules that nothing can be compiled for iOS or macOS using Unreal Engine.

Apple is going to have slim to none top tier games on either platform. macOS is already a dead end for gaming. iOS will follow the same path.

Maybe Unity will step their game up.

 

[cmaier]

No I bought a pc because it offered better value and more freedom.
[automerge]1599572418[/automerge]
to all the blinkered apple fans please note all the authorities around the world looking into Apple's app store policies.

Case rested.

Ah, the old “guilty until proven innocent” argument,

 

[Maximara]

The monopoly argument is stupid. I am viewing it more from a perspective of Epic wants their own store able to be installed on iOS; pretty sure Epic does not care about the 30% cut either. Who knows if that is doable with the current APIs of the platform, but it seems like it should be.

How I see this playing out in the long game:

Epic is going to lose.
Epic is going to stop development of Unreal Engine for iOS and macOS. Epic could add into their development rules that nothing can be compiled for iOS or macOS using Unreal Engine.

Apple is going to have slim to none top tier games on either platform. macOS is already a dead end for gaming. iOS will follow the same path.

Maybe Unity will step their game up.

I doubt anything after "Epic is going to lose." coming to pass.

Especially given "Talking about Unity, it has an average of 4.5 million subscribers and a market share of 48% whereas Unreal Engine stands about 13%." - "Unity vs Unreal Engine? No more Confusion for Game development" April 10, 2018 Linkedin

And as Unity vs. Unreal: What to Choose for Your Project? (Aug 9, 2019) shows, based on developer data, Unity has risen to 62%, Internal proprietary engines were at 47% while Unreal languishes at 12%. Throwing out ~25% of the Mobile and ~10% of the Desktop/Laptop market (I'm not sure how they would merge) when your marketshare is around 12% looks like cutting off one's nose of to spite their face by Epic. From a business stand point it doesn't make a lick of sense.

The macOS isn't dead it's just badly cripples thanks to issues with Apple designing for Intel chips that didn't appear when Intel promised them and watching their machine heat throttle like no one's business.

As I mentioned before odds are Noxplayer and Bluestacks will get ported to Apple Silicon and that opens the the door for iOS versions which opens up Android's huge library.

They can look all they want.

However I’ve lost track how many such investigations have yielded very little actual change.

Money talks and in a day and age where governments are strapped for cash I can see more of the “you pay us more money and we’ll drop the investigations” than I can otherwise.

I used to believe these investigations meant change. Time and experience has taught me otherwise.

That seems to be the case anymore and yes is depressing. It's akin to that certain tale in Macbeth that is "full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing." Given it, at least in the US, is happening in an election year odds are that it is going to go exactly nowhere.

 

[jesse10RR]

a) They agreed to it by creating a developer account and published apps through it and
b) Because Google, Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo ALSO have rules on what developers can, and cannot do, through their respective app stores.

Yeah, but still any company should respect some basic rules and rights of developers. I've faced and discovered a lot of great developers, who think the same way. It's always great, when IT giants help web and game developers in their developing processes, but it happens not so often. It's also nice, when young developers have examples and portfolios, where they can look for projects, made by other dev team, like this iLogos Game Crafting studio website. They have hundreds of works and projects, where they have been taking part of developing process, making art objects, implementing some cool design solutions, or implementing new gameplay features.

 

[avkills]

I doubt anything after "Epic is going to lose." coming to pass.

Especially given "Talking about Unity, it has an average of 4.5 million subscribers and a market share of 48% whereas Unreal Engine stands about 13%." - "Unity vs Unreal Engine? No more Confusion for Game development" April 10, 2018 Linkedin

And as Unity vs. Unreal: What to Choose for Your Project? (Aug 9, 2019) shows, based on developer data, Unity has risen to 62%, Internal proprietary engines were at 47% while Unreal languishes at 12%. Throwing out ~25% of the Mobile and ~10% of the Desktop/Laptop market (I'm not sure how they would merge) when your marketshare is around 12% looks like cutting off one's nose of to spite their face by Epic. From a business stand point it doesn't make a lick of sense.

The macOS isn't dead it's just badly cripples thanks to issues with Apple designing for Intel chips that didn't appear when Intel promised them and watching their machine heat throttle like no one's business.

As I mentioned before odds are Noxplayer and Bluestacks will get ported to Apple Silicon and that opens the the door for iOS versions which opens up Android's huge library.



That seems to be the case anymore and yes is depressing. It's akin to that certain tale in Macbeth that is "full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing." Given it, at least in the US, is happening in an election year odds are that it is going to go exactly nowhere.

To be honest; and the usual with the internet, I had not done the research on Unreal vs. Unity. That is interesting and I stand corrected; if unity has that kind of market domination then Apple really does not need to worry I guess.

On another front though; and something I am starting to dabble in; the virtual production xR stage stuff with Disguise and Unreal pretty much have this market cornered. nVidia dominates this space because of the need to sync the GPUs across multiple machines. Apple has no chance in the real professional sense getting into this segment. Yes you can do small scale stuff with Macs, but with AMD not supporting Raytracing yet and lack of nVidia support on Macs, this is a major bummer.

I just hope we do not lose Unreal Engine for the Mac. Oh well.

 

[Maximara]

To be honest; and the usual with the internet, I had not done the research on Unreal vs. Unity. That is interesting and I stand corrected; if unity has that kind of market domination then Apple really does not need to worry I guess.

On another front though; and something I am starting to dabble in; the virtual production xR stage stuff with Disguise and Unreal pretty much have this market cornered. nVidia dominates this space because of the need to sync the GPUs across multiple machines. Apple has no chance in the real professional sense getting into this segment. Yes you can do small scale stuff with Macs, but with AMD not supporting Raytracing yet and lack of nVidia support on Macs, this is a major bummer.

I just hope we do not lose Unreal Engine for the Mac. Oh well.

That is one thing I am very good at doing - research. Which is why I get really annoyed when I produce piece after piece of evidence (such how in the long term a Mac can be cheaper then a PC) and it is dismissed without any counter research presented.

As for losing Unreal Engine for Apple products (not just the Mac but the iPhone and iPad as well) I think that ship has sailed as Epic has made it so Apple likely doesn't want to deal with them. I'm not sure if the judge will force Apple to reinstate Epic's developer account but given her ruling about 'self inflicted wound' I doubt it. Besides with Apple going to AS the dynamic of what is mobile and what is desktop blurs like crazy and while Unity and Unreal have ARM versions given Unreal's marketshare I don't know if developers would want to go with an engine that is (or was) on such shaky ground (remember Google also got sued).

Never mind Epic's efforts to get exclusive (even the Kickstarter said it would be available on all platforms at the same time) have pissed a lot of people off. It didn't help that the store is primitive even by the standards of Steam when they first launched their store. You launch with a freaking shopping cart not have it on some flipping road map.

 

[Reindeer_Legal]

What I think you meant was: "iOS/iPadOS/tvOS/WatchOS"

General purpose operating systems: Windows NT, all kinds of Linux/BSD flavors and derivatives (Ubuntu, Android, Chrome OS, macOS) and some ancient ones. The kind of OS you use to browse macrumors, send emails, write documents, play games and stream TV shows.

Can you present any evidence that shows he is lying?

Writing an OS is a formidable task. People like Linux Torvalds write OS, not you and me. The graph below shows some important components of an OS (ignore the difference between monolithic kernel and microkernel).
(source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_operating_system#/media/File:OS-structure2.svg)

Based on information from this web page (https://blockgeeks.com/guides/what-is-a-blockchain-operating-system/), I don’t think any mature blockchain OS exists yet: even Codefi claims to be a "blockchain application suite" on their website. So I am highly confident that @cyb3rdud3 wrote application program(s), rather than an OS for blockchain interoperability. I am confident that he has no more expertise in OS development than you.

Funny, your account on here is @Reindeer_Legal, certainly leading people to believe that you were a lawyer.

Am I probably a reindeer?

specializing in IP

App Store’s monopoly is not an IP issue, it’s an antitrust issue. Furthermore, I doubt corporate IP lawyers like @cmaier have the best interests of consumers in mind.

draft the contract I would ask you to sign in exchange for the purchase of your iOS (and related) devices.

I respectfully decline your offer.