Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

[deevey]

1. Okay I'll qualify that I meant general-purpose operating systems. I didn't buy an iPhone to get an embedded operating system.

I would counter with saying that's exactly what you bought!

You certainly didn't buy it so you could run alternative app stores or for the software that iOS users "could only dream of"

You have already pointed out there are obviously alternatives on the market that suit you better.

 

[avkills]

For all the people wanting a walled garden; do you have the same problem on your PC (Mac or Windows) deciding what apps to install?

Adobe - Not on App Store for Mac or Windows (you have to download their own creative cloud app to install anything)

Any professional 3D app (Maya, Lightwave, Vectorworks, etc etc); these all have to be installed by downloading the installer from the respective company.

Seriously if you can't take responsibility for what gets installed on your electronic devices; then you have no business owning any.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

For all the people wanting a walled garden; do you have the same problem on your PC (Mac or Windows) deciding what apps to install?

Adobe - Not on App Store for Mac or Windows (you have to download their own creative cloud app to install anything)

Any professional 3D app (Maya, Lightwave, Vectorworks, etc etc); these all have to be installed by downloading the installer from the respective company.

Seriously if you can't take responsibility for what gets installed on your electronic devices; then you have no business owning any.

I see it more as an annoyance that I can’t opposed to a convenience that I can.

For example I rather install office 365 through the App Store than direct form Microsoft. I wish I could do the same for those that aren’t there. Restoring a machine or building a new machine would make that so much easier.

On MacOS I go around it with a script and brew and brew casks to combine such services. And on Windows similarly with choco and scoop.

Yes the fragmentation annoys me. I rather have the convenience of a single system like it is on iOS. When my phone was stolen twice its easy to lock everything out and rebuild the replacement device.

 

[cmaier]

For all the people wanting a walled garden; do you have the same problem on your PC (Mac or Windows) deciding what apps to install?

Adobe - Not on App Store for Mac or Windows (you have to download their own creative cloud app to install anything)

Any professional 3D app (Maya, Lightwave, Vectorworks, etc etc); these all have to be installed by downloading the installer from the respective company.

Seriously if you can't take responsibility for what gets installed on your electronic devices; then you have no business owning any.

The ability to run things downloaded at random means the ability of malware to cause things to run even if you didn't intentionally download it. It's an attack vector. You can literally get malware on your windows machine having done nothing other than visiting a perfectly legitimate website which serves ads from an ad vendor that has been breached. It has actually happened.

No way that would work on iOS.

 

[avkills]

The ability to run things downloaded at random means the ability of malware to cause things to run even if you didn't intentionally download it. It's an attack vector. You can literally get malware on your windows machine having done nothing other than visiting a perfectly legitimate website which serves ads from an ad vendor that has been breached. It has actually happened.

No way that would work on iOS.

Apple can still wall off web browsing to prevent that. What I am saying is that if you download something that screws your device up; perhaps you should have researched more.

It is the same thing as people who receive phishing emails and get snagged. Just a little bit of research can tell you what to look for and how to avoid and just delete errant emails.

 

[avkills]

I see it more as an annoyance that I can’t opposed to a convenience that I can.

For example I rather install office 365 through the App Store than direct form Microsoft. I wish I could do the same for those that aren’t there. Restoring a machine or building a new machine would make that so much easier.

On MacOS I go around it with a script and brew and brew casks to combine such services. And on Windows similarly with choco and scoop.

Yes the fragmentation annoys me. I rather have the convenience of a single system like it is on iOS. When my phone was stolen twice its easy to lock everything out and rebuild the replacement device.

Yeah this is about the only thing I like about the App Store approach is that installing a machine from scratch and then reloading extra software is a lot easier because it just shows up on your list of purchased apps once you log into your iCloud account; same goes for iCloud syncing contacts and what not.

But for some software, it just is never going to be that way, at least on the personal computing side.

I still say people need to take some responsibility.

 

[Alan Wynn]

For all the people wanting a walled garden; do you have the same problem on your PC (Mac or Windows) deciding what apps to install?

I have have to change the oil on my Gasoline powered internal combustion engine. I do not need to change the oil on my electric car. Just because I am willing to do some thing on one piece of equipment, does not mean I should have to do it on another.

Adobe - Not on App Store for Mac or Windows (you have to download their own creative cloud app to install anything)

Yup, and it is a miserable experience. It also means that I need to create an account with them, give them my payment details, etc., yet another reason I do not like that process. Adobe has had data breeches and owns a company that tracks people on the web. I would rather not have to give them the ability to track me through software that is unaccountable (unlike Apple's App Store Privacy "Nutrition Label".

Any professional 3D app (Maya, Lightwave, Vectorworks, etc etc); these all have to be installed by downloading the installer from the respective company.

Also terrible customer experiences. Blackmagic Design lets me install DaVinci Resolve from the Mac App Store. As do Affinity, Omni, and others. Much better experiences.

Seriously if you can't take responsibility for what gets installed on your electronic devices; then you have no business owning any.

Your argument seems to be that if one is not a security professional, one should not be allowed to buy a smart phone. Got it. Glad you are not in charge.

 

[avkills]

I have have to change the oil on my Gasoline powered internal combustion engine. I do not need to change the oil on my electric car. Just because I am willing to do some thing on one piece of equipment, does not mean I should have to do it on another.



Yup, and it is a miserable experience. It also means that I need to create an account with them, give them my payment details, etc., yet another reason I do not like that process. Adobe has had data breeches and owns a company that tracks people on the web. I would rather not have to give them the ability to track me through software that is unaccountable (unlike Apple's App Store Privacy "Nutrition Label".



Also terrible customer experiences. Blackmagic Design lets me install DaVinci Resolve from the Mac App Store. As do Affinity, Omni, and others. Much better experiences.



Your argument seems to be that if one is not a security professional, one should not be allowed to buy a smart phone. Got it. Glad you are not in charge.

I have not had a problem with Adobe CC, or installing some things outside the App Store.

Thinking that you are automatically safe from malware because of Apple's walled garden is foolish. Apple's own development tools were found to allow malware into compiled apps recently. All I am saying is that you can't just rely on the manufacturer to claim that nothing will happen and you are safe.

And everyone tracks what you are doing, Apple, Google, Amazon, Adobe, Yahoo, Microsoft --- they all do it.

I guess you are the type that opens up email attachments from unknown sources, right?!

 

[cmaier]

Apple can still wall off web browsing to prevent that.

No, they can reduce the likelihood, but they can’t prevent it. Bugs happen.

And an important safeguard is that only properly signed apps can execute. Your proposal inevitably pokes holes in that protection.

 

[Alan Wynn]

I have not had a problem with Adobe CC, or installing some things outside the App Store.

Glad to hear you have not had a problem. I have not had a car accident bad enough to set off the air bags. Would you like me to take the air bags out of your car?

Thinking that you are automatically safe from malware because of Apple's walled garden is foolish.

Right, so given that it cannot be perfect, better to eliminate it altogether. Makes complete sense.

Apple's own development tools were found to allow malware into compiled apps recently.

Fortunately, thanks to Gatekeeper they were able to revoke the certificate of the malicious app and prevent it. In your world where anyone can install anything that would not have been possible.

All I am saying is that you can't just rely on the manufacturer to claim that nothing will happen and you are safe.

So again your prescription is therefore remove as many protections as possible and make require everyone to be an IT security expert. Awesome.

And everyone tracks what you are doing, Apple, Google, Amazon, Adobe, Yahoo, Microsoft --- they all do it.

Apple prevents as much tracking as possible and requires others to disclose and receive permission for tracking. Again, are you advocating that we all be tracked all the time?

I guess you are the type that opens up email attachments from unknown sources, right?!

Nope, and fortunately, were I that type, I keep my Macs set to only allow apps from the App Store, only changing it when I have to install something specific. I do data security professionally, which is one reason I have an iPhone. I do not want to have to expend energy worrying about my phone.

If you enjoy that, there is an ecosystem that lets you have all the viruses and malware you can want, and it sounds like you would enjoy it much more. That way you can tell people about all the malware, trojans and other things you actively prevented from being installed, and how great your anti-virus software is.

 

[Andropov]

Adobe - Not on App Store for Mac or Windows (you have to download their own creative cloud app to install anything)

That's a strange choice to defend your point. Adobe CC cloud app is absolute garbage, borderline bloatware. I wish I didn't need to install it. Everyone does.

Last time I installed it, I spent half an hour disabling the daemons for the dozen or so background processes it installs. Ugh.

Seriously if you can't take responsibility for what gets installed on your electronic devices; then you have no business owning any.

Yeah that has proven to work great in the past.

 

[reedster]

Stores always take a cut. You sell Fortnite at Walmart, they take a cut. You sell in-app purchases in the App Store, then Apple is totally reasonable to want a cut. If you think you can thrive without the marketplace/middle-man, then by all means sell direct to consumers...but don’t try to have your cake and eat it too, using someone else’s marketplace but bypassing them in sales.

You’re all missing the point here. The problem isn’t that Apple expects to take a cut of sales made through the App Store. It’s that the App Store is the only marketplace and they won’t allow any competing marketplace to exist. It’s like only being able to buy cases, screen protectors, and headphones from the Apple Store. Apple made the iPhone, therefore nobody should be able to make useful accessories for it unless Apple gets a cut, right? The only difference is that it’s way easier for Apple to maintain a monopoly over the distribution of digital ’accessories’. If they could get away with it with physical accessories I’m sure they would try, and it would be just as wrong.

 

[cmaier]

You’re all missing the point here. The problem isn’t that Apple expects to take a cut of sales made through the App Store. It’s that the App Store is the only marketplace and they won’t allow any competing marketplace to exist. It’s like only being able to buy cases, screen protectors, and headphones from the Apple Store. Apple made the iPhone, therefore nobody should be able to make useful accessories for it unless Apple gets a cut, right? The only difference is that it’s way easier for Apple to maintain a monopoly over the distribution of digital ’accessories’. If they could get away with it with physical accessories I’m sure they would try, and it would be just as wrong.

from what you just wrote, it’s apparent we see the point.

In the walmart building down the street there is only one marketplace, run by walmart. I can’t walk into a McDonald’s and start selling whopper juniors to the people waiting in line. And if you want to sell games for a nintendo switch or a PlayStation 5, you are paying your 30% to Nintendo or sony, regardless of whether you sell through their digital stores or you sell bluray disks.

 

[Abazigal]

I have not had a problem with Adobe CC, or installing some things outside the App Store.

Thinking that you are automatically safe from malware because of Apple's walled garden is foolish. Apple's own development tools were found to allow malware into compiled apps recently. All I am saying is that you can't just rely on the manufacturer to claim that nothing will happen and you are safe.

And everyone tracks what you are doing, Apple, Google, Amazon, Adobe, Yahoo, Microsoft --- they all do it.

I guess you are the type that opens up email attachments from unknown sources, right?!

The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

[MacUser08435]

Reading a lot of "Epic did this to themselves" and that's certainly fair given the current dev agreement which they violated...

However, what right does Apple have to reach outside of its store and dictate to companies the prices of items/services within their applications delivered by other platforms/stores/services? I think that's the real issue which is being missed here.

 

[Maximara]

Reading a lot of "Epic did this to themselves" and that's certainly fair given the current dev agreement which they violated...

However, what right does Apple have to reach outside of its store and dictate to companies the prices of items/services within their applications delivered by other platforms/stores/services? I think that's the real issue which is being missed here.

The right of contract law. Yes, it sucks but this is perfectly legal given the way contract law is set up. Deal with it.

 

[avkills]

No, they can reduce the likelihood, but they can’t prevent it. Bugs happen.

And an important safeguard is that only properly signed apps can execute. Your proposal inevitably pokes holes in that protection.

Not really; Apple's latest OS is pretty much a nanny OS that requires you to give permission to apps to do just about anything. In the big picture this is a good thing; but the implementation sucks. We should have an option at install time or first run to enable all the rights we would like the app to have instead of having to dig through the preferences once we find out a certain feature will not work until we "grant" some permission.

But computer vs. personal device is different to me. The personal device should be locked down more, I still think they could find a way to do it even with multiple stores. Consumer protection laws would probably need to be revised. Apple could not be held accountable if "another stores' app did something bad."

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

 

[Maximara]

Not really; Apple's latest OS is pretty much a nanny OS that requires you to give permission to apps to do just about anything. In the big picture this is a good thing; but the implementation sucks. We should have an option at install time or first run to enable all the rights we would like the app to have instead of having to dig through the preferences once we find out a certain feature will not work until we "grant" some permission.

But computer vs. personal device is different to me. The personal device should be locked down more, I still think they could find a way to do it even with multiple stores. Consumer protection laws would probably need to be revised. Apple could not be held accountable if "another stores' app did something bad."

Is that really Apple's fault or is it due to a programmer that does bonehead things?

Sadly it is in Apple's best interest to be nanny happy because as the fiasco with Liebeck v. McDonald's Restaurants shows even if the customer does something mind numbingly dumb with your product some clueless jury is going to give them a windfall which you when have to spend time (read money) appealing down to something sane.

This why things like windshield sunshield have silly things like "do not drive with this in place" because as sure as the sun rises there is going to be some drooling moron that will so exactly that and then eventually an even more idiotic jury will give them a cash bonanza which you have to appeal to a court that doesn't have rocks for brains to get it either overturned or reduced to something sane.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Reading a lot of "Epic did this to themselves" and that's certainly fair given the current dev agreement which they violated...

However, what right does Apple have to reach outside of its store and dictate to companies the prices of items/services within their applications delivered by other platforms/stores/services? I think that's the real issue which is being missed here.

So you joined up just to say that. Please do enlighten us where apple dictates what the price should be on other platforms?

 

[cmaier]

Reading a lot of "Epic did this to themselves" and that's certainly fair given the current dev agreement which they violated...

However, what right does Apple have to reach outside of its store and dictate to companies the prices of items/services within their applications delivered by other platforms/stores/services? I think that's the real issue which is being missed here.

Apple doesn't do that. They simply say that you can't do that *in the app.* You can charge less on your website or outside the app store as long as you do not:

1) put that information in the app itself
2) put a link to get to the purchase within the app itself

 

[deevey]

Apple doesn't do that. They simply say that you can't do that *in the app.* You can charge less on your website or outside the app store as long as you do not:

1) put that information in the app itself
2) put a link to get to the purchase within the app itself

Exactly the point that's being missed.

Samsung cannot swagger into a retailer waving a massive sign at the checkout telling customers that you can buy a Galaxy in their shop down the street for cheaper.

Thats essentially what Epic did in this case.

 

[Analog Kid]

For all the people wanting a walled garden; do you have the same problem on your PC (Mac or Windows) deciding what apps to install?

Adobe - Not on App Store for Mac or Windows (you have to download their own creative cloud app to install anything)

Any professional 3D app (Maya, Lightwave, Vectorworks, etc etc); these all have to be installed by downloading the installer from the respective company.

Seriously if you can't take responsibility for what gets installed on your electronic devices; then you have no business owning any.

Yeah, I do. I try pretty hard to not install things that aren't in the AppStore-- not only for the security of the application itself, but also for the security of the payment system. I've severely trimmed down the number of Apps I'm willing to buy from 3rd parties, and I try to substitute AppStore apps where possible. There have been some apps that I've already owned but that I've repurchased when they became available on the AppStore because I prefer that mechanism.

One exception has been CaptureOne. It's not on the AppStore. Lightroom is. My hate for Adobe trumps my preference for the AppStore.

This is part of what drives my interest in keeping iOS as it is. If you couldn't buy MacOS apps through other sources, more vendors would be enticed into providing their apps through the Mac AppStore and I'd happily buy them from there.

What I am saying is that if you download something that screws your device up; perhaps you should have researched more.

Or paid someone else to do that research for me. I don't want to, and frankly can't afford to, spend the time researching everything I want to install.

I could go back to the kitchen of every restaurant I visit, and make sure they're preparing my food in a sanitary way. I could take samples of their ingredients and test them for contamination. I could study and take classes in how to properly do these tests. You could do that to. So could dozens or hundreds of other potential customers.

Or... I could pay the taxes necessary to hire inspectors to do that for all of us at once.

I want Apple to curate the applications available to me, and I'm willing to pay for that service in both money and flexibility.

 

[Maximara]

Exactly the point that's being missed.

Samsung cannot swagger into a retailer waving a massive sign at the checkout telling customers that you can buy a Galaxy in their shop down the street for cheaper.

Thats essentially what Epic did in this case.

I agree. Epic signed a contract (ie a legally binding document) that said if they wanted to have a program on the App story they had to agree to certain conditions. They broke the contract and are now whining to the point they need a side order of cheese. The only thing they could really claim would that the contract was so one inside that shock the conscience applies and so far nothing even remotely along those lines AFAIK has been presented.

I really don't understand how the Epic-fan boys/Apple haters can't understand that. Are they that dumb or are they so far in the fanboy/hater camp they can't see jack?

 

[Abazigal]

For all the people wanting a walled garden; do you have the same problem on your PC (Mac or Windows) deciding what apps to install?

Adobe - Not on App Store for Mac or Windows (you have to download their own creative cloud app to install anything)

Any professional 3D app (Maya, Lightwave, Vectorworks, etc etc); these all have to be installed by downloading the installer from the respective company.

Seriously if you can't take responsibility for what gets installed on your electronic devices; then you have no business owning any.

The counterpoint to that is that I don't have as many apps installed on my PC, either because they replicate services which can be accessed via a desktop browser, or involve use cases that simply are not possible on a desktop or laptop form factor.

For example, I typically browse reddit via the safari browser on my iMac, but on my iOS devices, I am spoiled for choice when it comes to reddit apps. I have 3 banking apps from the same bank on my phone, which replicate functionality I could get from logging in to their website). I am typing this response in Safari on my Mac, but normally use tapatalk on my iOS devices.

I don't have a dozen google apps on my PC either; I use the chrome browser for that.

Likewise, prior to becoming preinstalled system features, people would download apps for even the smallest feature on their smartphones, be it turning the flash into a torchlight, or scanning documents, or simply making a fart noise.

Then there are apps for food delivery, ride-sharing and online shopping, which again, are typically handled through the desktop browser.

So as mobile users download more apps, the chances of them downloading a problematic or shady app increases as well, and so it makes sense to have a system for curating and vetting them prior. I currently have 141 apps downloaded on my iPhone. Definitely way fewer on my Mac.

Not to mention that the desktop way of doing things isn't exactly perfect either. Even for gaming, there are so many different app stores. Just having Diablo 3 on my Mac means having to download and install the Blizzard game client.

I am perfectly capable of vetting and managing my software downloads, but I am also aware that I am likely more tech-savvy than the majority of the computer user base, and I think that statements like "Seriously if you can't take responsibility for what gets installed on your electronic devices; then you have no business owning any." are selfish, short-sighted and sorely lacking in empathy.

 

[Abazigal]

More information just came out from Epic.

Read Epic’s new, full argument why a court should force Apple to reinstate Fortnite

We’ll see if the judge is swayed on September 28th

www.theverge.com

The salient points:
1) 350 million registered users.
2) Signifiant number are on iOS, almost a third (probably explains why they are going after Apple first - this is possibly their most lucrative market).
3) Almost ⅔ of iOS users access Fortnite only via their smartphone, so Epic risks losing them forever as a (paying) customer. This would represent a 20% dip in total user numbers.
4) Apple is reportedly preparing to blacklist them for at least a year.

You have made your bed, Epic, now sleep in it.