Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

Attachments

  • 1599018389295.png
    1599018389295.png
    274.8 KB · Views: 102
Most perfect example ever !!😂

If there are 10 stores and all have only one app each that I want. As a customer I now need to handover my credit card details to 10 different companies rather than one.

How does that benefit me, the consumer ?
Explain how "10 stores" is a functionality. A functionality is the capability to do something. It's not the functionality's fault that there's competition.

You are like: Oh gosh, competition is evil, so many choices, I'd prefer Apple daddy chooses one for me. I'd prefer Apple daddy takes over the entire country, let them exclusively control banking, TV, transportation, housing, education. I only need to pay bills for one company! How convenient!

Sorry, not free market's fault.

Plus, you ever heard of a thing called billing companies? You think companies want your credit card info? You think they want liability for fraud? Free market already solved your problem.
 
Ok. It's the future now. Guess we know whether or not consumers want their washing machines to have an OS.

just take a class on operating systems, k?

BTW since tizen is based on Linux, it definitely let you run whatever you want.
 
Last edited:
  • Disagree
Reactions: TiggrToo
"In the future"
In a article from 2017 ie 3 years ago.

"This is an old question already.

When you check this Samsung Machine, it has Tizen.

(deleated youtube video - who knows why given youtube algorithm seems to be written by clueless chimps, given the date of 2016 it appears to be the prototype)

So, yes, some modern and recent (when I write the answer) washing machines have operating systems as advanced and flexible as Tizen (based on Linux).

Although other old washing machines can use particular software or even be completely electro-mechanical devices." - Does a washing machine have an operating system?

Google is your friend. :p

Sorry, not free market's fault.
they want liability for fraud? Free market already solved your problem.
What free market (other then stuff you don't have to pay for :) )?

The free market is an illusion as there have always been forces that break many of the key concepts. Take biofuels for example. In a true free market corn would be near if not at the bottom of the list of biofuel crops (Even Forbes knows this) as there are far better biofuel sources in terms of time, money, and energy in-energy out ratio be it hemp, nearly any type of grass you care to name (including some weeds), and algae . But thanks to subsidies and horribly out of date laws corn get promoted when at the nearly anything else would be an improvement.

Then there is consumer ignorance. It wasn't until Unsafe at Any Speed the car buying public became aware that there were numerous built-in dangers in car and even then it took government regulation to fix the issue. Then there was the whole lead issue Clair Patterson discovered and the power that be tried to discredit because they wanted to make a cheap buck.

The Gilded Age is a prime example of how much drivel the concept of a free market is. Trusts and monopolies (and yes there is a difference abet a small one) abounded. Medicine and food were of questionable quality, working conditions were horrid (the crunch mentality in so many software companies is the rough modern equivalent), Children were worked in conditions so bad that in some localities animal cruelty laws were used to stat it, and companies were so powerful they could literally buy presidencies and effectively silence their major critic by making him vice-President (though that backfired badly as thanks a lone crazy Theodore Roosevelt wound up as president), and host of other nasty stuff. Novels such as The Jungle and Midnight is a Place catch the real world of that period and one in some respects we seem to be headed to abet in a different form.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: cyb3rdud3
In a article from 2017 ie 3 years ago.

"This is an old question already.

When you check this Samsung Machine, it has Tizen.

(deleated youtube video - who knows why given youtube algorithm seems to be written by clueless chimps, given the date of 2016 it appears to be the prototype)

So, yes, some modern and recent (when I write the answer) washing machines have operating systems as advanced and flexible as Tizen (based on Linux).

Although other old washing machines can use particular software or even be completely electro-mechanical devices." - Does a washing machine have an operating system?

Google is your friend. :p

Does tizen prevent you from install apps Samsung didn't approve?
Does any other major hardware and software maker ever do that? Only on Apple.
 
  • Disagree
Reactions: TiggrToo
Most perfect example ever !!😂

If there are 10 stores and all have only one app each that I want. As a customer I now need to handover my credit card details to 10 different companies rather than one.

How does that benefit me, the consumer ?

In a free market, this is gonna happen:

Me, consumer: Epic, get your ass on App Store, I don't want to download your store.
Epic: sorry, but Apple charges 30% commission, can you imagine that? Please come to my store, or this store made by Google that charges only 10%. If you use the App Store, we will charge you more.
Me: sounds reasonable, gonna check out the Google Store.
Apple: motherfu Google charges 10%. Let's lower our price to 15%.
Me: 15% isn't so bad, plus it's Apple, gonna take the deal.

There, you ended up exactly where you were before and you paid less. That's the magic of competition.
 
Last edited:
  • Disagree
Reactions: TiggrToo
In a free market, this is gonna happen:

Me, consumer: Epic, get your ass on App Store, I don't want to download your store.
Epic: sorry, but Apple charges 30% commission, can you imagine that? Please come to my store, or this store made by Google that charges only 10%. If you use the App Store, we will charge you more.
Me: sounds reasonable, gonna check out the Google Store.
Apple: motherfu Google charges 10%. Let's lower our price to 15%.
Me: 15% isn't so bad, plus it's Apple, gonna the deal.

In a free market, this is gonna happen:

Google, Samsung, LG, Oppo, et al: Look at all the freedom we offer! Buy from anywhere, do your own vetting, side load a torrent if you choose!
Me, consumer: I'm a busy person who would rather pay a bit more to have a curated experience.
Market: here, let me introduce you to iPhone.
You: but I hate the shackles that iPhone puts on billion dollar game makers!
Market: let me introduce you to everyone else.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: cyb3rdud3
In a free market, this is gonna happen:

Google, Samsung, LG, Oppo, et al: Look at all the freedom we offer! Buy from anywhere, do your own vetting, side load a torrent if you chose!
Me, consumer: I'm a busy person who would rather pay a bit more to have a curated experience.
Market: here, let me introduce you to iPhone.
You: but I hate the shackles that iPhone puts on billion dollar game makers!
Market: let me introduce you to everyone else.

As if not clearly stating App Store's 30% commission is not misleading advertising. Does Apple mention this at all? Remember when Apple tried for ban the Facebook app from showing how much Apple charges?
 
Why don't you educate yourself what an operating system is?
No need. I’m very familiar with washing machines. Got one myself; has notifications, both WiFi and NFC, also control the automatic dosing system, the inbuilt display etc. Same with our Fridge.

My Range Rover and my wife’s Audi also have operating systems. And a whole network in the car with a variety of apps that can be installed and displayed and interacted with on the various screens.

Dude you need more experience and imagination. There are a lot more operating systems than you can imagine.

I actually wrote one as well specially for blockchain interoperability and also supportive of applications being deployed. But to my standard and specification, and transactions do attract a fee as well. It’s available and in use for about 570 banks now and some central banks and regulators.

I really think you just haven’t got a clue what you are on about. Not in regards to IT, not in regards to what consumers want, not in regards to the choices that are available already, and not even in regards to the legal aspects of this case.
 
No need. I’m very familiar with washing machines. Got one myself; has notifications, both WiFi and NFC, also control the automatic dosing system, the inbuilt display etc. Same with our Fridge.

My Range Rover and my wife’s Audi also have operating systems. And a whole network in the car with a variety of apps that can be installed and displayed and interacted with on the various screens.

Dude you need more experience and imagination. There are a lot more operating systems than you can imagine.

I actually wrote one as well specially for blockchain interoperability and also supportive of applications being deployed. But to my standard and specification, and transactions do attract a fee as well. It’s available and in use for about 570 banks now and some central banks and regulators.

I really think you just haven’t got a clue what you are on about. Not in regards to IT, not in regards to what consumers want, not in regards to the choices that are available already, and not even in regards to the legal aspects of this case.

1. Okay I'll qualify that I meant general-purpose operating systems. I didn't buy an iPhone to get an embedded operating system.
2. I don't believe you wrote an operating system. An application program maybe. Don't fool yourself and think what you wrote is part of the operating system (say, a kernel module). Don't lecture me on IT if you can't distinguish an application program from the operating system.
3. I paid the same price for iPhone as you did, yet somehow you represent "the consumers" and I don't. When did the consumers' council appoint you?
4. I don't have a law degree, and I always intended my expressions as personal opinions, not official adjudications. Yet somehow you declare to be the legal authority. Did you get a law degree specializing in antitrust laws?
 
Last edited:
  • Disagree
Reactions: cyb3rdud3
Okay I'll qualify that I meant general-purpose operating systems. I didn't buy an iPhone to get an embedded operating system.
I don't believe you wrote an operating system. An application program maybe. Don't fool yourself and think what you wrote is part of the operating system (say, a kernel module). Don't lecture me on IT if you can't distinguish an application program from the operating system .
LOL So in the same response where you change the goal posts on what you meant; after several people gave you examples that disproved your points. You now have the audacity to assert (without even knowing any detail about it) that you know better than I what I did.

Hmm ok then 🤣
 
LOL So in the same response where you change the goal posts on what you meant; after several people gave you examples that disproved your points. You now have the audacity to assert (without even knowing any detail about it) that you know better than I what I did.

Hmm ok then 🤣

Caught self-aggrandizing so change the subject...

Haha clicking "Disagree"? If you can claim you wrote a specialized OS, I can claim that I wrote a new specialized programming language (you're not gonna know about it of course, since it's a trade secret).

Perhaps you forked Linux and added an app. Then you announce that you wrote an operating system.
 
Last edited:
Caught self-aggrandizing so change the subject...
Ahem you changed the goal post by how you defined what an operating system is to you. You choose to do that all by yourself. Nothing to do with me or anybody else. You choose to do that after several examples were provided that don’t seem to fit with what you presented as an argument.

You also had another choice. That choice could have manifested along the lines of “Fair enough, I [reindeer_legal] had that wrong. I wasn’t aware of that and didn’t take that into consideration. I’ve learned something. Awesome and will reconsider my position. “

But instead you chose to dig in further, and when there was no further to go, you the thought let’s change the definition.

But I’m pretty confident you disagree with that as well. 🤔🤣
 
In a free market, this is gonna happen:

Me, consumer: Epic, get your ass on App Store, I don't want to download your store.
Epic: sorry, but Apple charges 30% commission, can you imagine that? Please come to my store, or this store made by Google that charges only 10%. If you use the App Store, we will charge you more.
Me: sounds reasonable, gonna check out the Google Store.
Apple: motherfu Google charges 10%. Let's lower our price to 15%.
Me: 15% isn't so bad, plus it's Apple, gonna take the deal.

There, you ended up exactly where you were before and you paid less. That's the magic of competition.

"For apps and in-app products offered through Google Play, the service fee is equivalent to 30% of the price." - Service fees. Mind telling us where this "store made by Google that charges only 10%" stuff is coming from? Certainly not any Planet Reality I am aware of (and don't waste our time with one off low price deals)

Report: Steam's 30% Cut Is Actually the Industry Standard shows GOG, Microsoft, Playstation, Xbox, Nintendo, gamestop, amazone, Best, and Walmart at that 30% for their stores. The only exceptions were Humble at 25% and itch.io is developer's choice.

And while Steam does have the sliding scale everybody is banging on about it is $10 million to get 20% and $50 million for 20%.

Everybody keeps going on and on about Apple's 30% when that 30% is the freaking standard. I wish these people would get it through their thick evidently empty heads that Apple isn't doing anything different from what the industry as a whole is doing.

Humble and itch.io is the real world competition and look at where they are - effectively minor players. It is not just about how much the developer gets but the ability to get their software out to people and that friends is what costs the 30%. As the old adage goes "you get what you pay for".

Heck, we see that with Epic right now. Shopping cart? It's in the pipeline but no. Decent search engine based on previous purchases? Uh no. Large software selection? You're kidding, right? But they treat their programers like crap with perpetual crunch time for programs after Fortnite
Me: And why does all this make me want to support Epic?!? How stupid do you think people are?
Eric supporter: Who's president of the US?
Me. Oh right. Nevermind. :p Oh wait minute. Epic is controlled by the Chinese company, Tencent, right?" The clock is ticking,
Eric supporter: I don't...Oh. you mean Tiktok. Crap. Well there are preorders.
Me: Oh right. To prophase a famous quote 'no one ever went broke underestimating the drooling stupidity of the average consumer...especially if they are American.'
Eric supporter: now you are getting it.
 
Last edited:
1. Okay I'll qualify that I meant general-purpose operating systems. I didn't buy an iPhone to get an embedded operating system.

That’s a silly thing to say. You bought what apple sells. Call it what you want. But when you bought it, you knew that Apple has an App Store that they curate, and that they don’t allow you to sideload native apps unless you have the source code or you jailbreak.

You can’t, on the one hand, say “it should do x,y,z because I bought it knowing that it’s a general purpose operating system” and on the other hand say “yeah, i knew it didn‘t do x,y,z when I bought it, but i demand that it does now.”
 
  • Like
Reactions: MacCheetah3
Walmart = iOS, Target = Android. Why don't people understand this? People's arguments here are similar to wanting to force Walmart to have a Target inside its same infrastructure.

You physically need to leave Walmart, travel some miles unless you are lucky and have a target next door (there are no Target and Walmart next door where I live) and physically walk in to a Target store.

Same applies with iOS and Android. Leave the iOS "store" and walk in to Android "store".

Then go to Kohl’s. Or Best Buy. Or Home Depot. Or Lowe’s.

Duh.
 
1. Okay I'll qualify that I meant general-purpose operating systems. I didn't buy an iPhone to get an embedded operating system.

Given that there are phones and watches that run Tizen that support other applications, it is hard to argue that it is not a general purpose operating system. TiVo boxes (another example given), also run linux (also the basis of Android) another general purpose operating system.

What I think you meant was: "iOS/iPadOS/tvOS/WatchOS", as they are the only things about which you seem to complain. Just as Nintendo Switches are "game consoles" iOS devices are "app consoles". They are not sold with the understanding that one has access to do anything one wants, but with the clear understanding that one is limited to applications sold through the App Store.

However, as it does not seem you knew this, and did not discover it until after you had passed the return date, I will happily purchase your device from you for what you paid for it, on the condition that you sign a binding contract that you will not purchase or use another iOS/iPadOS/tvOS/WatchOS product, nor any other future product made by Apple that has these same restrictions.

2. I don't believe you wrote an operating system. An application program maybe. Don't fool yourself and think what you wrote is part of the operating system (say, a kernel module). Don't lecture me on IT if you can't distinguish an application program from the operating system.

You know this based on what? You have not done it, so you do not think someone else here has? You seem to make a lot of pronouncements without any basis for them. I have no idea if @cyb3rdud3 wrote an OS or not (and I am not even sure what definition of OS you are using), but I have no real reason to doubt him. Can you present any evidence that shows he is lying?

3. I paid the same price for iPhone as you did, yet somehow you represent "the consumers" and I don't. When did the consumers' council appoint you?

Many of us purchased these devices specifically because of these restrictions. Apple's consumer satisfaction surveys routinely show that. You purchased a device whose limitations were stated in advance, and you agreed to their license (when you set up the device). What gives you the right to force everyone else to suffer because you now want a different device?

4. I don't have a law degree, and I always intended my expressions as personal opinions, not official adjudications. Yet somehow you declare to be the legal authority. Did you get a law degree specializing in antitrust laws?

Funny, your account on here is @Reindeer_Legal, certainly leading people to believe that you were a lawyer. What makes me laugh, is that you are constantly arguing the law (including IP rights) with people like @cmaier who are actual lawyers, admitted to the bar in California, specializing in IP.

Given that you are not a lawyer, I will ask @cmaier to draft the contract I would ask you to sign in exchange for the purchase of your iOS (and related) devices. We would not want you to have to suffer under the abusive control of Apple any longer. You will clearly be much happier in the open Android world.
 
Come on, how many people do that? 0.0 something %?
By the way, what's the rate there? I guess 30% too... isn't it?
If you side lid and use your own payment portal then a lot less than 30%
Side loading is higher than 0%. I did it when I was in Android so your 0.0% is already inaccurate. I hate to break it to you but Android isn’t a walled garden like iOS.
 
If you side lid and use your own payment portal then a lot less than 30%

Depending on the costs of hosting, advertising, support explaining to your users how do do it, etc., might not be much less than 30%.

Side loading is higher than 0%.

Of course it is. That is why piracy is so high, however, given that Epic with a highly motivated set of users could not make a go of it, I am not sure how much more than 0% of legitimate apps it it.

I did it when I was in Android so your 0.0% is already inaccurate.

You did it as a user, or as a developer? If as a user, how many paid apps did you side load? If as a developer, what were your sales (order of magnitude is fine), and why did you choose to deliver your app that way?

Without much more data, your single anecdote does not tell me the percentage is above 0.0% (there are several billion android devices - to make the math easy we will say 2 billion, so if there were not 2 million users side loading, you have not exceeded 0.0%).

I hate to break it to you but Android isn’t a walled garden like iOS.

I hate to break it do you, but I am totally happy that there is an alternative to iOS/iPadOS/tvOS/watchOS, I just do not want to live in it, nor have Apple’s ecosystem change to be like it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Maximara
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.