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So I don't know why I bother.

I know all that (how applications work, you do understand that as a sysadmin, this is part of my work), that is not what he was claiming though. You bother because you don't want to admit you were wrong in your generalization. ;)

Launching applications is a very small part of one's workflow.
 
I know all that (how applications work, you do understand that as a sysadmin, this is part of my work), that is not what he was claiming though. You bother because you don't want to admit you were wrong in your generalization. ;)

Launching applications is a very small part of one's workflow.

The point is where he noticed the difference. That's one of the first things people notice, boot times, and launch times. But I'm sure in your world PFing isn't used much either. :rolleyes:

Funny how almost every review out there says SSD's are one of the single greatest improvements to computers in the last decade. But according to you, it's only for those who use really disk heavy applications. You obviously know something the rest of us don't.
 
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Sexy, but...

I get why this is sexy, but another CPU change will be painful for developers, and not to mention painful for customers of those developers.

We run a business on Macs. We had to wait for custom drivers for hardware. It was painful enough to wait for these to be developed. A processor change will create a whole world of hurt in these spaces.

I hope Apple continues along the x86 architecture for Mac OS.
 
I'm for whatever one works.. if it consumes less power but still let's me do the day to day tasks, I'm for it.
 
7 pages so not enough time to read through all 7 but even if it was posted before, it warrants posting again:

Apple made test intel machines before they moved, and KNEW they would be moving, to intel. Apple isn't stupid and hedging their bets. This might see the light of day and may not. Just because they made it doesn't mean it will come to pass.

Exactly. In fact, just because this is the first we're hearing about it doesn't mean this is their first machine of this nature. Apple is VERY smart about these things...
 
As much as I do not want to see another architectural shift, there is a distinct possibility that this rumor is true.

Some of you don't have a very long memory.

The PPC to Intel was a huge pain for the userbase.

Those of us who had PowerMac G5s were sort of kicked to the curb when the Intel switch was announced. Two years after the switch the writing was on the wall that our stuff was not only obsolete but support for that machine in most software was quickly ushered out.

Another switch so soon? Ugh. I'd rather go off to the PC and Windows and be done with it rather than leaping architectures again anytime some incremental improvement in battery life appears.

My uses are power uses, not some "I need 12 hours of battery life so I can watch movies on my next transatlantic plane flight".

Now if the thing benches over 10,000 in geekbench and then still gets 12 hours of battery life I'd consider it but this "you need to rebuy all of your expensive pro apps every 5 years because Apple wants to make more money and inconvenience and fragment their userbase" forget it.

Plus, I discount the rumor: Thunderbolt is an Intel technology. They're not going to license it to run on an Arm processor even as a lab experiment since ARM would technically be considered a competitor.

Now there's no doubt there's oddball lab machines out there but if they go "yay, we're changing again". I can't say I'll be onboard this time. That PPC to Intel debacle was unbelievably annoying.

I do remember the transition, especially because I was looking to switch from Windows to OS X at the time but when the Intel transition was announced, I refused to purchased the PPC machines and I had a hunch that the 32-bit Intel chips were a mere stop-gap. (Isn't Lion going 64-bit only?) Thus I was left dangling on Windows for another two years before I was willing to jump to OS X.

However, I am willing to bet that Apple will transition to ARM, much to my chagrin, for the following reasons:
1) Win 8 will run on ARM. It is slated for release in 2012 or 2013. Apple and Microsoft are no longer engaged in an OS war (if SJ is to be believed), and I would not doubt that both have discussed the possibility of using ARM-based hardware. Is it just coincidence that MS has ported Win 8 to ARM and now Apple appears to be testing OS X on ARM?

2) ARM processors are going to get much faster and are going to gain more cores. According to a recent article:

"ARM expects to ship dual-core Cortex-A15 SoCs in 2012 . . . the company predicts devices running on the 2.5GHz Cortex-A15 will actually reach store shelves before the end of 2012, with quad-core variants showing up in 2013."

The article mentions that the A15 is expected to perform at a level five fold that of the A9 chip and does state that the "quad-core SoCs expected for 2013 [are] geared towards tablets rather than phones," but Apple now appears to be interested in this technology for its future computers. Consequently, current analysis of A5 processors to current Intel chips is irrelevant with regard to Apple's future plans.

Geekbench processor scores for lulz:
A5 - 747
1.4 GHz Core 2 Duo (Penryn) - 2255
1.4 GHz Core i5 (Sandy Bridge)- 4519


Ivy Bridge will support OpenCL on the IGP.

Based on the article I cited and these scores, the A15 may deliver equivalent performance or even outperform Ivy Bridge and its successors. We will have to wait to see. Again, though, is it coincidence that MS is porting Win 8 to ARM in 2012/2013 and that much more advanced ARM chips are arriving in 2012/2013 or is this indicative of a larger trend?

3) As pointed out, Intel seems open to fabbing custom chips, and even seems willing to fab ARM chips.

What about the rumor that Intel would be pleased to integrate other IPs to their CPU design as long as a Intel CPU is in it.

https://www.macrumors.com/2011/05/2...making-foundry-deals-to-produce-custom-chips/

Was just a few days ago!
The ARM CPU could also gain a big improvement considering Intel's manufacturing process….

4) Apple's emphasis on Cocoa.(?)

The cool thing is Cocoa is so portable, that any Cocoa app will run perfectly on ARM with no extra coding required. Just a quick recompile. Pretty awesome. :apple:

I do not understand much about programming, but if the above quote is accurate, then Apple appears to be laying the foundation for a shift to ARM.

5) Apple has already re-written certain of its programs (e.g., iWork, iMovie) for ARM via the iPad. I have not used these apps (yet), so I do not know if they are as full-feature as their X86 counterparts (probably not), but it may represent the beginning of an experiment for Apple.

I personally dread the thought of another transition, but I wonder if this leak isn't intentional in order to provide Apple with advanced feedback without any commitment, much like the leak of the Intel transition the weekend before it was announced. I am a little more skeptical that such a transition would occur this year, but I could see a transition as early as next year (4Q?) depending upon the state of the development of ARM processors. However, I think the key to any transition is WWDC. If this transition will occur with Lion, it will be announced then. Otherwise, the soonest I would expect this transition would be the subsequent OS (after Lion).
 
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I haven't read all the posts but I call BS. I don't believe there is any way to graft Thunderbolt, which is an extension of the PCIe bus, on to an ARM platform/SoC. No way.

While an ARM-based Mac may be possible, it's not going to run TB any time soon.
 
if they really want to be disruptive

they would convert the appletv into a standalone, cheap computer. Maybe sell it with a wireless keyboard/magic track pad compo for 149.99

They have all the iOS apps they need, like mobile safari/mail/imovie/iwork, etc.

It would be a great basic machine for a lot of people. Throw in cloud storage and you got yourself a winner.
 
That's because the Air has an SSD. Throw an SSD in your old Core2Duo MacBook Pro and the MBP would be faster. I can understand if you prefer the Air, it's very portable... but it ain't faster than an '09 MacBook Pro. It's the SSD that's making the difference.

I get that, and I almost bought the SSD for the MBP. But at the end of the day the longer battery life, and smaller form factor also came into play. That's why I said that the MBA is the best computer I've ever owned. Overall, I find it much more functional than my MBP for my needs.
 
I get why this is sexy, but another CPU change will be painful for developers, and not to mention painful for customers of those developers.

We run a business on Macs. We had to wait for custom drivers for hardware. It was painful enough to wait for these to be developed. A processor change will create a whole world of hurt in these spaces.

I hope Apple continues along the x86 architecture for Mac OS.

If it is just a architecture change without changes of the API it won't be that painful for (most) developers - should be (for most) as easy as firing up xcode and recompile with the latest compiler that creates Universial binaries. Yes, probably different for really hardware related stuff (but for the target group of an arm based MBA there shouldn't be too much need for that)

It might be painful for the user to wait until the developer of their favorite app gets around to recompiled ... Not sure how good/fast a intel-rosetta environment would work on the arm processor.
 
I don't understand where Apple is going with this, the ARM we've seen so far is no where powerful enough to be in a mainstream laptop, unless Apple has plans to bring iOS to the a more of a laptop platform, maybe Apple plans on having Macbook Air run iOS, if thats the case then it's fine, but I don't think that it can ever replace a desktop or even a low end Intel laptop..
 
Hopefully not! Did Apple learn from the PowerPC fiasco? An x86 chip is a must for compatibility across the Mac line and with the windoze world (read Microsoft Office). Or else, it will be the end of the Mac.
 
Could you explain to me how Intel was a mistake. I'm not attacking you, I honestly would like to hear your opinion.

I was wondering the same thing. In addition to the intel processores being great processors I think one thing many people underestimate is that many people switched to mac because of the intel processor. I was most of my live in the windows only world. When Apple came out with intel processores, I decided to give MacOS a try. I always wanted to try them, but didn't want to get stuck with MacOS (and a machine that can't run anything else) in case I hate it or can't do what I need to do. The Intel processor gave me a nice backup solution: I always could turn it in a windows box if needed. Well, turns out I stopped using the Virtual Machine after 3 month and never looked back to my windows days and enjoyed MacOS. I know from many others that tried Macs (knowing that have an easy backup plan)

So hope is that ARM is just an additional option for the 'low end'/'ultra portable' machines - but they will keep the intel options too.
 
Looks like the writing is on the wall if this actually happens. Give iOS to consumers and sell the power of OSX to companies with deep pockets. I guess intel can shrink a die only so much so bring in a new platform. I figured the mini would have been the test bunny with iOS but guess apple figured differently. Only time will tell how this plays out. Part of the cloud computing coming our way.
 
1) Win 8 will run on ARM. It is slated for release in 2012 or 2013. Apple and Microsoft are no longer engaged in an OS war (if SJ is to be believed), and I would not doubt that both have discussed the possibility of using ARM-based hardware. Is it just coincidence that MS has ported Win 8 to ARM and now Apple appears to be testing OS X on ARM?

Yes, it is. Microsoft's plan for Windows 8 on ARM is very much a OS for tablets, seeing how the current tablet FAD is going.

A lot of your speculation is based on Windows 8 on ARM. A lot of it is thus based on a flawed premise : That Windows 8 on ARM is somehow for anything other than just tablets.
 
Apple made test intel machines before they moved, and KNEW they would be moving, to intel. Apple isn't stupid and hedging their bets. This might see the light of day and may not. Just because they made it doesn't mean it will come to pass.
When Steve announced the Intel transition, he said OS X was designed to be CPU agnostic so they can switch without much difficulty. Steve is not all about PowerPC/Intel/ARM/MIPS/whatever, he is all about user experience.
 
Testing, perhaps hybrids?

That Apple would have full OSX builds for ARM should be obvious. They were making sure OSX always ran on x86 from the start, long before they seriously undertook making the transition. It's perfectly sensible for them to have a prototype ARM-based notebook machine that runs OSX.

Then there's the idea of releasing hardware. First, they have a good relationship with Intel, and they need Intel chips for high-performance systems. It's going to be a long time before any ARM processor can hit the performance levels offered by Intel chips. And with Intel's new 22nm FinFET process, they're leaping ahead in silicon efficiency. Since they need x86 for their high end machines, it's unlikely they'll want to deviate for their low-end laptops. It's one thing to design a whole new platform, there the iPad has a completely different type of UI and therefore requires completely reengineered apps. But for notebooks and above, with keyboards and trackpad, they're going to want to retain software compatibility.

That being said, Intel is keen on putting x86 cores on SoCs. There's no reason an ARM core couldn't be integrated on the same die. ARM binaries would execute on the ARM core(s), and x86 binaries would run on the x86 core. The kernel would be hybrid, with mostly ARM code, and so would all the built-in apps and low-level facilities. So things like Finder, Keynote, Quartz, SystemUIServer, etc. would all be ARM code. Any app that's either legacy or requires higher performance (e.g. Final Cut Pro or Garage Band) would be x86, requiring that the x86 core be woken up for those tasks.

A little care would have to be taken with IPC protocols to make sure that processes on each architecture can communicate properly. For instance, Safari 64-bit uses a 32-bit process wrapper for Flash. On the hybrid system, Safari ARM would use an x86 32-bit wrapper for Flash. Moreover, Safari itself might be a hybrid app, where the UI decorations and stuff and much of the DOM system would run on ARM, while the Javascript would JIT for x86 or dynamically for either architecture, depending on the compute demand of the Javascript code.
 
If I could switch into a very low usage state (like an iPad only running one app) and get 10+ hours of battery, that would be awesome. (Plus a backlit keyboard)

Interesting idea! I wonder if Apple could/would offer dual CPUs. Apple already employs a high-power/low-power GPU pairing in the MBPs, but I'd imagine doing so with dual Intel & ARM CPUs would be massively more complex, given the architecture differences.
 
Maybe just an A5 for graphics and openCL purposes since A5 are fully (CPU and GPU) compatible with the standard where Intel current designs only support openCL on the CPU.

Yes, because we all know how useful OpenCL has been to most people thus far. :rolleyes:

They tested it, maybe.

And discovered that it wouldn’t run anything :eek:

Well, that’s what testing is for :)

They found it runs iPad apps just fine. Look at how the iPad is selling. It shouldn't be a shock that Apple might be thinking that a cheaper Macbook Air running iOS instead of OSX might just sell like hotcakes.

I know I don't like having an exposed screen when carrying something that big around. A clamshell lid/screen with keyboard and protection against scratches, etc. would be quite a boon to some, especially if it cost about the same price as an iPad. The Macbook Air may become the new "Netbook" solution from Apple. It's already been on a downward cost trend. This will simply be iPad + keyboard/trackpad/lid.
 
Shrug

All I know is that they may decide to go this route but unless there is a huge advantage by doing it (greatly increased power savings with greatly increased processor performance) it seems odd they would pursue this route.

It makes sense for the IOS devices - but even if they introduce a quadcore 2.5 ghz chip, well, my iMac already has a 45 nanometer 2.8 ghz quadcore chip that can on the fly auto-overclock itself to 3.48 ghz and also can hyperthread and perform as an eight core chip in cases where the software was written to take advantage of doubly threaded processes.

So, if ARM can beat that - say double 2.5 ghz or double quadcore motherboard on a super small 22 nanometer fabbing with faux 12 or 24 core capability with the power draw of an average laptop maybe it would be worth it.

It will be interesting that's for sure.
 
Bear me with this one,

Apple is losing its creativity overtime. iPad 3, iPhone 5, New MacBook Pro every year, new revamped iPod every October every year.

Now, they are putting A5 chips on MacBook Air. Seems like a rip-off to me :)
 
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