Apple Threatens to Terminate Epic Games' Developer Accounts on August 28

[CthuluLemon]

I was referring to how the new Avengers video game had Spider-Man removed on all platforms except PS4.

Oh, my mistake, that's totally relevant to the point at hand. A big company like Sony in no way has the resources to multi-task, both developing and releasing the PS5, and taking characters out of a game. I thought for a second you went off topic there, my mistake.

 

[CthuluLemon]

Apple provided a level ground when they opened their App Store. Before Apple, all the cell phone company operated appstores were taking 50% to 70%. When Apple first said 30%, *ALL* the developers said this is such a good price.

Maybe the developers were just choosing between devils, ever think of that. Once one devil was thwarted, they moved onto the next.

 

[4jasontv]

You'll have to elaborate. Yes, exclusive games have always been a thing, but that exclusivity, whether permanent or time-limited, was paid for. Nintendo pays for the privilege of exclusivity, kind of the same as how AT&T paid apple for the exclusive rights to carry the iPhone in the U.S. when it was originally released. If you remember, it took some time for the exclusivity deal to expire before other carriers could start selling the original iPhone.

Are we arguing Nintendo's exclusivity deals are anti-competitive? Are we arguing that Apple should get a pass because other companies do shady things too? What's going on here, you seem to be only responding to the most immediate post, ignoring your own prior points and muddying the waters. You're all over the place.

Nintendo limited the number of games a publisher could release per year to 5. I think they scrapped this rule, but I don't remember when. These were exclusives. It was more of Nintendo not wanting to be known for shovelware *ehem* mobile platforms *ehem*.

I reply to posts that reply to me. I don't feel the need to reply to literally everyone. Most of the counterarguments were already dismissed earlier.

 

[cmaier]

As stated in a previous post, there is a concept called standing:

Standing (law) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If Epic had never signed that contract and never distributed its app on the App Store, it seems like it would hard to determine harm or damages in a hypothetical. By actually demonstrating what would happen if they broke the rules, they have suffered harm they can point to in a lawsuit.

So what you are saying is epic fraudulently induced Apple to enter into a contract with it, knowing they had no intention to perform ?

 

[4jasontv]

Oh, my mistake, that's totally relevant to the point at hand. A big company like Sony in no way has the resources to multi-task, both developing and releasing the PS5, and taking characters out of a game. I thought for a second you went off topic there, my mistake.

It's a dirty move was my point. They are using their ownership of one character in a movie franchise to force another developer (Square-Enix) to ship an incomplete game to all platforms except for the one they control.

 

[Shirasaki]

The amount of people fiercely defending Apple and justify everything Apple is doing is mind boggling. At this point, I think I’d better sit back and let this whole thing play out.

Also I do not play games written in unreal engine, so no impact on me whatsoever.

 

[Ethosik]

Honestly, this seems like a desperate mafia-style messaging action to other smaller developers. Sit quietly on your hands, do not challenge us, or we will give you a fatal blow you will be unlikely able to fight.

I have no doubt a court will block this until the case is over. And it will fall into evidence towards the anticompetitive claims in the lawsuit, and in congressional, EU, and state-level investigations. The sharks are circling, honestly the wise move would have been to let it simmer and then announce new policies that go half-way... because its only going to take one government somewhere to kick the door wide open and for Apple to lose a lot more control.

There is a difference between challenging Apple, and breaking their rules to prove a point.

 

[Ethosik]

The amount of people fiercely defending Apple and justify everything Apple is doing is mind boggling. At this point, I think I’d better sit back and let this whole thing play out.

Also I do not play games written in unreal engine, so no impact on me whatsoever.

So you would rather defend a company that did an equivalent of throwing a tantrum in the middle of a store? Epic broke the rules. Their app got removed and their dev account is in question. Any developer would have this happen to them if they break the rules.

 

[cmaier]

The amount of people fiercely defending Apple and justify everything Apple is doing is mind boggling. At this point, I think I’d better sit back and let this whole thing play out.

Also I do not play games written in unreal engine, so no impact on me whatsoever.

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn’t mean they are “fiercely” doing anything.

 

[4jasontv]

I have nothing against your expressing your opinion. My issue is simply that the changes you want would eliminate much of what millions of other users want to make it more like a platform that already exists (and that you can choose to buy if those things are more important than the things you say you like about the platfrom.



Those are things I like about their platforms as well. You want to know why they are first and reliable? Simply because they do not support out dated APIs forever. You are completely correct that one can still run MS-DOS games on Windows, and until recently, that worked by switching into real mode, eliminating much of the CPU’s protection. It also meant that the code and configurations they needed to test were several orders of magnitude more complex and so were inherently less stable.



Apple did not care what one developed for the Apple II, but even early on they cared about what software was developed for the Mac. Just like with NeXT, one needed to apply to join their developer program and one could not develop apps without being a member.



I head a great proposal for a Constitutional Amendment, called Truth in Legal Naming. It would require that any law named after some crime victim would need to so that had it been in place, it would have prevented the crime against the named victim. The problem with your contention that they have too much control is that your proposed solution would not have fixed the problem you just mentioned. Even if the developer had been able to offer support for side loading, 99% of customers would not bother to figure out how to do it.

In addition, one can still load any application on the Mac one wants, so nothing has changed there for the tiny number of users who care. For the rest of us, notarization (as an example), makes things better and safer.



Yup, one could still use the App Store (and as Epic discovered on Android, most people do not care or want this “freedom” hence they had to back down and give up delivering their apps outside the Google Play store. However, what you and others do not seem to want to acknowledge is that opening things the way you suggest necessarily makes security weaker and hurts small developers most.

Your argument is: Build a castle, surround it with high, thick walls, with a steel gate. Then, just to that gate, build a giant opening and cover it with a piece of paper that says “only go though this hole if you know what you are doing.” Unfortunately that completely negates the rest of the security.

What you and others seem to refuse to acknowledge, is the many of the things you like about the platform, only exist because of the things about which you complain.

I understand how important these things are to you and do not even argue that your desires are wrong. I just argue they are met perfectly on Android and that I would rather you decide that if your listed requirements are so important that you can not live without them, that you will just switch platforms, rather than ruin the one that many others and I want.

This was long, and I had to get a drink halfway through, but I am glad I came back and finished it.

 

[Shirasaki]

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn’t mean they are “fiercely” doing anything.

I’m not saying they are “disagreeing” with me either. But the consistent behaviours across multiple similar news articles comment section give me that impression. At this point, I care little whether anyone agree with my point or not.

 

[cmaier]

I’m not saying they are “disagreeing” with me either. But the consistent behaviours across multiple similar news articles comment section give me that impression. At this point, I care little whether anyone agree with my point or not.

And yet you keep posting about people taking different positions than you?

 

[Ethosik]

I’m not saying they are “disagreeing” with me either. But the consistent behaviours across multiple similar news articles comment section give me that impression. At this point, I care little whether anyone agree with my point or not.

Just move to a different product. I am not spending all my day and resources fighting with Spectrum to lower their price because Google Fiber offers a better packaged. I just move to Google Fiber.

If you don't like Apple, Android is very good!

 

[4jasontv]

I’m not saying they are “disagreeing” with me either. But the consistent behaviours across multiple similar news articles comment section give me that impression. At this point, I care little whether anyone agree with my point or not.

The whole point of publicly expressing an opinion is to give people a change to change your mind. I don't care what other people believe when they get up from their keyboard, but I sure as heck want all the perspectives available. I'll push back - but I don't want them to walk away feeling they shouldn't participate.

 

[Nogi Memes]

I doubt the USG will take a Chinese company's side over the greatest American company in the current political environment.

 

[zorinlynx]

The amount of people fiercely defending Apple and justify everything Apple is doing is mind boggling. At this point, I think I’d better sit back and let this whole thing play out.

Also I do not play games written in unreal engine, so no impact on me whatsoever.

This is a conversation that really needs to happen, I think regardless of what the final outcome is. I'm glad it finally is.

Despite my frequent talk of wanting Apple to allow side-loading and the like, I'd honestly be happy if they just stopped forbidding apps from mentioning alternate ways to pay for content. Then Apple would have to compete on a level playing field with other payment processors.

 

[cmaier]

This is a conversation that really needs to happen, I think regardless of what the final outcome is. I'm glad it finally is.

Despite my frequent talk of wanting Apple to allow side-loading and the like, I'd honestly be happy if they just stopped forbidding apps from mentioning alternate ways to pay for content. Then Apple would have to compete on a level playing field with other payment processors.

stop pretending that Apple is just a payment processor.

 

[TiggrToo]

A smaller developer could never afford to do what Epic did. So they’re hoping this forces an outcome that benefits everyone. I still want to understand why Epic should pay Apple 30% but not Netflix or Spotify. In what world does that make sense?

In a world where deals are made.

Nothing wrong in making deals. Epic didn’t. It’s Apple’s store, their rules and they can make whatever changes they want.

 

[dguisinger]

Just move to a different product. I am not spending all my day and resources fighting with Spectrum to lower their price because Google Fiber offers a better packaged. I just move to Google Fiber.

If you don't like Apple, Android is very good!

Always love how the intolerable, highly repetitive "Champions" of Apple products always promote decreasing their sales and marketshare. Great way to promote the platform you love..... maybe you work for Google

 

[Ethosik]

This is a conversation that really needs to happen, I think regardless of what the final outcome is. I'm glad it finally is.

Despite my frequent talk of wanting Apple to allow side-loading and the like, I'd honestly be happy if they just stopped forbidding apps from mentioning alternate ways to pay for content. Then Apple would have to compete on a level playing field with other payment processors.

Then let's have this discussion in a positive way. Breaking the rules is not the right way to handle things.

Protests can cause change. And Protesting, peacefully, is legal. If you break a contract or legal agreement when using a service, the other party is within their rights to remove you from the environment. If I stop paying my rent as a protest, I still get kicked out of the place if I still live there.

 

[DeepIn2U]

Not to mention, Apple has not always been successful stepping into new market categories. What was the name of their revolutionary music social media platform again, ping? How long did it last.

The argument that Apple can just step into a market and succeed is so tired it's a joke at this point. That ability died on October 5, 2011. There's nobody left at Apple that has the skill to successfully make such a move.

-Apple tried to make their own sapphire glass, they failed.
-Apple tried to make a smart speaker as successful as Alexa and Google Assistant, they failed (and apparently are doing nothing to fix Siri's reported fundamental flaws.)
-Apple tried to get into social media, they failed.
-Apple tried to make their own mobile advertising platform, it failed
The list goes on and on.

Apple makes mistakes. BIG ones, but they do NOT just burry it, they shelve it then come back again in small increments before going big:

Example:
Apple Navigator a concept in video with no working hardware just a mock-up. Check it out online.
Scribble - we first seen this major implantation on the Apple Newton, a very large and thick yet powerful and adaptable PDA in the earliest concept. In its day Microsoft was pushing foldable communicators that mimicked Nokia’s 9000 communicator, yet ran WINCE as the OS. Michael TChai led that team. When Jobs returned and seeing the success of 3Coms Palm Pilot it was killed! Rightfully so. Michael has no job left no lateral move and had to leave Apple. When you deleted a word on the Newton, a “puff” animation occurred and came the standard in OSX from Puma until Snow Leopard when you’re are moved an app alias from the dock.

Apple launched iPhone, then iOS 4 and finally iPhone 4S with Siri integrated - the killer component of the Apple Navigator (of 1983)!

Apple wanted to launch the iPad Pro, Michael Tchaikovsky was brought back because of his leadership experience and vision of what the pro can do.

PS: fun fact, the Apple Newton has just a bit the same modulator and features (sans the GPRS/EDGE cellular connectivity) that the Compaq HP iPaq early models have. Apple was on the right track yet it wasn’t lucrative enough at that time for R&D. Basics were a must to get that money.

Microsoft is pushing xCloud for gaming on all other than Apple devices, making partnerships. We’ve seen this push internally with Sony with PS3, PSP and their handhelds (Nintendo separates games and game play which worked for their demographics).

Apple is pushing n to get games meant for iOS for iPadOS and TVOS for a few years and later this year natively on MacOS 11. AND they’ve slowed and requested their developers to give an option of universal apps to work throughout unless a device in their view offers a more unique aspect/use case then a separate binary will download. BUT the value of the consumers dollar is atleast heavily considered here.

I do NOT see Microsoft, Epic, Sony or any other games creator doing this simple thing. I have a game account purchased on Android or iOS or PS or Mac let me plat the same game wherever it exists and I choose for it to live on. No they’ve all wanted you to pay more and subscribe more! Microsoft allows you Xbox Live games - not all are compatible and your OC has to be up to snuff to really enjoy it. With so much power and clout and partnerships they STILL can’t get basics with architecture with their manufacturer partners for core parts bin to support the game play. Yes gaming is better where the grass seems greener - but there are issues therein their garden as well.

 

[Ethosik]

Always love how the intolerable, highly repetitive "Champions" of Apple products always promote decreasing their sales and marketshare. Great way to promote the platform you love..... maybe you work for Google

I am not biased to any platform. I have Macs and Windows PC. I have iOS and Android devices. I even use Linux. I am not a "champion" for any of these. They all have their pros and cons.

 

[Shirasaki]

So you would rather defend a company that did an equivalent of throwing a tantrum in the middle of a store? Epic broke the rules. Their app got removed and their dev account is in question. Any developer would have this happen to them if they break the rules.

On the surface, epic games breaks the rule by introducing payment methods that are not apple’s own system. This is clear and Apple guideline says “no”.

On the other hand, if epic game can do this, theoretically any company that is large enough can do this. But epic game didn’t until now. They Clearly know they are breaking rules and are breaking it anyway. I’m confident that internal management team weights the damage and gain, and made a gamble of some sort.

Given all the hearings etc happening right now, apples 30% cut is hurting a good chunk of developers and by proxy, other small business owners according to Facebook statements. I’m neither a developer nor those small business owners so I can’t verify or provide any evidence on that one.

For me, I applaud epic game’s decision to bring the whole issue to the public attention. During a football/basketball match, it’s not uncommon for players to intentionally break the rule to break a stalemate or kick a comeback. Those few scores sometimes means win or lose. If Apple is doing right, why now so many companies start to voice their frustrations? I would like to know why, instead of siding with any company.

 

[4jasontv]

Always love how the intolerable, highly repetitive "Champions" of Apple products always promote decreasing their sales and marketshare. Great way to promote the platform you love..... maybe you work for Google

There are not a lot of developers I will stand up for. I mean, I really like Bethesda and Ubisoft's games and Apple's Pro apps over their alternatives, but I wouldn't pre-order their content to show them support. But then there are developers like DEVONthink who make a handful of products. They support them forever, and they actively work with their customers to ensure their product is the best thing they can make. I will reward that. So honestly Apple isn't really the reason I champion their platform. DEVONthink is.

 

[Ethosik]

On the surface, epic games breaks the rule by introducing payment methods that are not apple’s own system. This is clear and Apple guideline says “no”.

On the other hand, if epic game can do this, theoretically any company that is large enough can do this. But epic game didn’t until now. They Clearly know they are breaking rules and are breaking it anyway. I’m confident that internal management team weights the damage and gain, and made a gamble of some sort.

Given all the hearings etc happening right now, apples 30% cut is hurting a good chunk of developers and by proxy, other small business owners according to Facebook statements. I’m neither a developer nor those small business owners so I can’t verify or provide any evidence on that one.

For me, I applaud epic game’s decision to bring the whole issue to the public attention. During a football/basketball match, it’s not uncommon for players to intentionally break the rule to break a stalemate or kick a comeback. Those few scores sometimes means win or lose. If Apple is doing right, why now so many companies start to voice their frustrations? I would like to know why, instead of siding with any company.

That is why I said this is equivalent of acting immature and throwing a tantrum in the middle of a store.