Apple Threatens to Terminate Epic Games' Developer Accounts on August 28

[Rogifan]

I should be able to pay Lipton for tea at Walmart without having to pay the Walmart tax!

Does Walmart have items on their store shelves that are free? If I buy a magazine at Walmart and then when I get home decide to subscribe to that magazine so it shows up in my mailbox every month should Walmart get a cut of that subscription because I bought the magazine in their store?

 

[developer13245]

This was always going to get ugly. So the uglier the better.

What are the “several violations of the Apple Developer Program License Agreement” that Apple is accusing Epic of? Fortnite was removed from sale, so how does this now create additional violations? Is Apple demanding Epic “fix” Fortnite so it can be made “Read for Sale”? If so that is clearly a bully tactic because it is forcing Epic to re-post an app Epic may not want in the Apple store. Fortnite may not be a commercially viable product if it can only be sold in Apple’s App store, so it is within Epic’s rights to not offer it for sale on iOS.

I've been a developer on Apple platforms for decades now - both as part of fortune 100 companies, and small independent "concerns" (including my own). There is widespread reporting that Apple developers are angry at Apple but are afraid of them so they remain silent. I agree with this sentiment. I'm not afraid of Apple because I just don't care anymore, but I guess I can be counted as being silent.

Apple knows developers are fearful and use this fear to create “self-censorship” amongst developers.

But in some strange way Apple (or part of Apple) doesn’t know they know it, or maybe they just don’t get it. Apple is desperately seeking participation in their developer feedback survey - so much so that they plaster the survey link on just about every developer program web page. Developers used to get invited to participate in a survey about every 2 years, so this change is very telling. Developers are abandoning Apple platforms like rats from a sinking ship and Apple can’t figure out why. Duh. Apple was too arrogant to listen to “small” developer feedback over the last 10 years - so now no one bothers to do their survey.

 

[Rogifan]

Granted, it's a bit of a gray area, but essentially Netflix and Spotify don't have each item (i.e. movie or song) as a purchasable/consumable instead it's part of their service, so Netflix and Spotify would only pay Apple a portion for each subscriber. I don't know if Netflix or Spotify still allow sign-up through their apps or if it's now only via their website (or apps on other platforms). Anyway, IAP are for app-specific features and digital products/content. So, for example, if Netflix made it so a Favorites tab in the app was only accessible as an add-on feature for say $0.99, Apple would take $0.30 of each purchase of that add-on. On the other hand, Amazon -- their general app -- is (mostly?) exempt because it sells (primarily) physical items and thus can integrate and advertise it's own payment processing system. I haven't purchased movies through the Prime Video app or books through the Kindle app (only via Amazon.com), therefore, I don't know if they comply with using Apple's IAP system.

Neither Netflix or Spotify use IAP. When you download the app all you get is a sign-in screen. Amazon’s Kindle app doesn’t allow you to buy books in the app because if they did they would have to use Apple’s IAP and give Apple 30% of every book purchase.

 

[Foxglove9]

Explain how you are locked in, and I'll give you an easy way out.
Talk about first world problems.

I own hundreds of dollars worth of games and apps. Many of which are not even available on Android.

 

[Rogifan]

In a world where deals are made.

Nothing wrong in making deals. Epic didn’t. It’s Apple’s store, their rules and they can make whatever changes they want.

OK that’s not much of a defense. And Apple didn’t make a deal with Netflix they created a brand new app category just so Netflix wouldn’t leave the platform. Epic can’t use this category because it doesn’t apply to games.

 

[mariusignorello]

I don't think its helpful in any discussion to say Apple/Epic/Whoever is only interested in Money. Business exist to make money. That is it. Sure there are side/secondary benefits like wanting to create systems or environments to help people. But at the core, business exist to make money. I do not blame Epic, or Apple for this part. What I do blame Epic for is breaking the App Store rules and complained/sued about it. You break Store policy, this happens. Live with it.

Absolutely, well said.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

they felt having a vibrant App Store/app ecosystem made the iPhone and iOS more valuable. But as hardware sales have stalled/declined Apple is needing to find other sources for their revenue growth. And one of the biggest sources of that is the cut they get from IAP.

Well App Store is part of services so to grow services revenue they need App Store to make a ton of money.

And, as a result of the need to increase their revenue, Apple, after keeping their cut 30% every year since being opened, abruptly decided... to keep the same cut. When asked “How is maintaining the same cut going to increase revenue growth?”, Apple waved at nearby bushes. We looked, but when we turned around, they were gone.

100% agree. No....100000% agree.

Adobe has a monopoly in Photoshop!
Xbox has a monopoly on Xbox games!

Not to mention my nana having a monopoly on her dentures! I hope no one finds out... oops

And in the US market (which is whose laws and where the suit has been filed under), Apple's share is around 46-50%:

Which is why the solution is to limit sales of the iPhone in the US only to 5 million per year. Their share will decrease immediately, then you just keep it depressed.

Seems like a simple fix for the app. Might be harder for the developer.

They eventually backed down and followed the rules of the App Store. In the end, it was all about PR because not many people even knew the app existed.

A big blow to apples revenue but one they deserve along with punitive damages for all the devs they have extorted unfairly. Splitting the App Store from Apple isnt off the table either.

Of course, IF it were settled that way, then developers would be free to sue Epic Games to reduce their cut. It would be an even bigger blow to them. That’s one of the main reasons why I think it won‘t be settled that way. The downstream effects would be adverse to every company that has a percentage of sales in their revenue sharing agreements.

The question is : what would be a reasonable cut, today in 2020 ? I don't have an answer to that, maybe around 20-ish, OR put a limit of money that Apple can generate from a single app.

I’m good with 30%. I kinda have to be because, you know, that’s the only deal I’m going to get.

 

[EchoplexSE]

I’m sorry but fuuuuck Epic, no sympathy for those *******s

 

[Realityck]

Um I never even made that comment.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1295430898716782592

 

[cardfan]

Why do you get to decide 30% is too much? You do know the majority of digital stores take 30% right? If you are for changing that for Apple, how about Steam, Xbox, Playstation, Windows Store, Google Play store? Should those change too?

(before COVID) I find a 12 pack of Soda way more expensive than 10 years ago (and it actually did increase).

Go ahead, sign up for a CDN that helps make your download faster anywhere in the country and world. I pay the CacheFLY bill here, and it get very very expensive, and I am not that popular and get a lot of downloads.

Apple's 30% offers A LOT to developers. They do not just take 30% just for giggles.

Do you want to remove the 30% but pay $1,000 for Xcode, developer license, APIs and stuff like that?

What’s reasonable? Zero is reasonable. Why should companies that sell digital goods subsidize Apple and other companies with apps who don’t have to pay Apple a dime?

The sooner the us govt rips Apple a new one here the better. Watch that stock fall as a result. They’ve only bet their future on being able to extort other companies for billions. Other companies paying this extortion are responsible for apples service revenue. Not Apple. Certainly not apples pathetic offerings.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

And Apple didn’t make a deal with Netflix they created a brand new app category just so Netflix wouldn’t leave the platform.

You DO realize that Apple likely didn’t just decide do create a brand new app category just ‘cause they were bored and didn’t have anything else to do, right? Netflix said, “We’d like to do things this way.” Apple said, “No, that doesn’t work for us.” Then they met, negotiated, Apple and Netflix crafted very narrowly defined the rules that any company of the same type with the same sort of content would have to go by if they wanted to do the same thing, and there goes the new app category.

 

[Naaaaak]

I buy a lot of software for my mac from independent developers, outside the app store if at all possible, because I want them to profit without the apple tax.

Ditto. You also can get upgrade pricing (which the Crap Store refuses to do even though devs have asked for a decade), faster updates (no App 'Review'), and the ability for the dev to refund you directly (something the Crap Store is barely getting). You're also less-likely to worry; think of the numerous Mac devs who dropped the Crap Store because it couldn't support what they wanted to do.

 

[Naaaaak]

It is second, but a distant second and is part of the whole services category. Hardware is still their largest source of revenue.

But services is the among the fastest growing IIRC and the one with the most Apple attention.

Having to lower fees would hurt Apple's permanent expensive-free-lunch from devs and cripple their Services revenue. Apple News certainly isn't contributing.

 

[4jasontv]

Does Walmart have items on their store shelves that are free? If I buy a magazine at Walmart and then when I get home decide to subscribe to that magazine so it shows up in my mailbox every month should Walmart get a cut of that subscription because I bought the magazine in their store?

What are you on about? Apple doesn’t have free stuff that costs money either. No one has free things that cost money.

 

[Ethosik]

What’s reasonable? Zero is reasonable. Why should companies that sell digital goods subsidize Apple and other companies with apps who don’t have to pay Apple a dime?

The sooner the us govt rips Apple a new one here the better. Watch that stock fall as a result. They’ve only bet their future on being able to extort other companies for billions. Other companies paying this extortion are responsible for apples service revenue. Not Apple. Certainly not apples pathetic offerings.

Because they host the actual application, provide a powerful IDE for free. Provide a ton of APIs. Provide search and discoverability.

I have spent thousands on my CacheFLY account and brand recognition. Apple essentially provides this in a package, for 30%.

 

[4jasontv]

I don’t know. Ask Apple who gives a lot of big guys more money. As far as I know most if not all Facebook and Google apps on the App Store are free. As are Amazon’s Kindle, Netflix and Spotify.

How are you defining free? Cause none of those apps are free.

 

[Rogifan]

You DO realize that Apple likely didn’t just decide do create a brand new app category just ‘cause they were bored and didn’t have anything else to do, right? Netflix said, “We’d like to do things this way.” Apple said, “No, that doesn’t work for us.” Then they met, negotiated, Apple and Netflix crafted very narrowly defined the rules that any company of the same type with the same sort of content would have to go by if they wanted to do the same thing, and there goes the new app category.

Of course not. But the new category was created specifically so Netflix wouldn’t leave. Of course they can’t write a rule just for Netflix so it applies to all streaming video. But it makes it harder to defend Apple deserving a cut for all these reasons people state when most apps are free or get special treatment where Apple doesn’t get a cent. I think it’s high time Apple comes up with a different way of paying for the App Store. And they should treat the store as a break-even business. It exists to make Apple products more desirable and make people want to stay within the Apple ecosystem. It should not be a rent seeking business.

 

[Rogifan]

How are you defining free? Cause none of those apps are free.

Facebook and YouTube aren’t free? Netflix and Spotify aren’t free to USE but they are free to DOWNLOAD. And they don’t have IAP so Apple isn’t getting any cut of those subscriptions.

 

[Naaaaak]

Valve charges a fixed 30% cut on Steam for the exact same thing as Apple and Google does.
I don't think they want any part of this. Steam/Valve already fought this game with Epic some years ago, which resulted in all of Epic's games being removed from Steam.

Except Steam wasn't the platform.
Steam didn't stop them from making the Epic store and having their own direct-distribution channel.
Neither did Microsoft.

In this case Apple puts a gun to your head unless you agree to all of their anti-competitive terms, ever-changing and unwritten 'guidelines', and the ridiculous 30% rip-off tax.

 

[Rogifan]

What are you on about? Apple doesn’t have free stuff that costs money either. No one has free things that cost money.

I’m not sure what you mean. Tim Cook recently said 84% of the apps in the App Store are free.

 

[Ethosik]

Except Steam wasn't the platform.
Steam didn't stop them from making the Epic store and having their own direct-distribution channel.
Neither did Microsoft.

In this case Apple puts a gun to your head unless you agree to all of their anti-competitive terms, ever-changing and unwritten 'guidelines', and the ridiculous 30% rip-off tax.

Uh seriously? I do not remember a gun to my head when I went to buy the iPhone. Or went to sign up to be an iOS developer. I could have gotten an Android phone and developed for Android. If I do not like Apple's terms, there is Android.

 

[pweicks]

The government cannot make proper decisions with regarding technology. Remember when Apple was being forced to open up iOS for the FBI? Or when Net Neutrality was being discussed?

I think in some ways they government can get too involved in things. And that is not good for anybody.

They are far too involved in everything already.

 

[Naaaaak]

Something similar happened with flash. You might say that flash was only good because it was popular. Without iOS it died. If Apple and Google blocks apps made with Unreal than developers might just avoid Unreal to ensure their game is eligible.

Flash died because it sucked. It was tried on other platforms and was just as trash as ever. When Apple refused to support it, they had like 10% marketshare or something, but users had a CHOICE.

Now we have a mobile OS duopoly that keeps CHOICE out of consumer hands. How are you going to run Unreal-engine games? Jailbreak your device (and probably void your Crapple warranty and right to repair)? It's completely unreasonable. Good luck building a company and offering something to consumers with the "gotta jailbreak first" business model.

 

[Ulfric]

Epic Games tells us that without access to Apple's OS tools, all future Unreal Engine versions can't be developed and updated to iOS and Mac devices. This impacts not just Fortnite, but app developers big and small.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1295465982983626752

 

[4jasontv]

Flash died because it sucked. It was tried on other platforms and was just as trash as ever. When Apple refused to support it, they had like 10% marketshare or something, but users had a CHOICE.

Now we have a mobile OS duopoly that keeps CHOICE out of consumer hands. How are you going to run Unreal-engine games? Jailbreak your device (and probably void your Crapple warranty and right to repair)? It's completely unreasonable. Good luck building a company and offering something to consumers with the "gotta jailbreak first" business model.

The goal is to get rid of unreal games.